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skydyvr 0
QuoteQuoteThe tie has already been established, you're just not hearing.
AKA.... I can't so I'll say it's been done and run.
See post 104 in "Are Republicans Autistic?". That's where the tie between increased government sponsored health care and increased taxation was established for you. Just because you elected not to reply to the poster's point does not invalidate it.
Stop putting words in people's mouths so often ("AKA. . . I can't") and you'll be a better person for it.
QuoteDude, there is no legislative correlation between ANY spending and ANY taxation.
I didn't say there was. I just said that increased government spending on healthcare all things remaining the same would cost the taxpayer more. The DUH factor there is huge.
The rest of your reply is a load of your standard BS unrelated to my simple point, so I'll pass on addressing it. I't not my concern that you don't understand what "all things remaining the same" means.
. . =(_8^(1)
skydyvr 0
QuoteThe guy is an idiot! Fraud is a felony. Don't commit fraud or perjury.
He wasn't convicted of fraud or perjury. He was convicted of tax evasion.
QuoteOh yeah, one more thing .., There's a saying about birds of a feather. Can't quite remember it all. So he's your freind skydyvr?
There's also a few sayings about people who hurl insults at others.
. . =(_8^(1)
QuoteQuoteThe guy is an idiot! Fraud is a felony. Don't commit fraud or perjury.
He wasn't convicted of fraud or perjury. He was convicted of tax evasion.***
I guess his council failed to convince the jury to ask, "where is the law".
Of course Al Capone was also convicted of tax evasion. Import tax evasion.
Blues,
Cliff
"Military men and most police officers are dumb,stupid animals"2muchTruth
Lucky... 0
QuoteWhat should I explain? What cap do you suggest putting on people?
None at all, I think it would be a fun society if the top 1% held 99% of all wealth....kind of a throwback to the renesance era.
QuoteThe top 1% pay more than the lower 95% combined. Why aren't the other 95% being pulled up?
Uh not quite. Actually it's the same, but I won't blow your defense of the poor rich. Like that oxymoron?
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
Also, the more important question is of where the class pread is going. Is it widening, maintaining or shrinking? Even if maintaining, it's just like a Communist nation with most wealth at the top.
QuoteThey already are taxed more heavily than any other group.
And they're still pulling away.
QuoteSo what? Will limiting their wealth make you feel better cause it certainly won't help anything?
Not limiting, but redistributing it for a more well-off country.
QuoteWell which is it, 93% or 99% and where did you get that?
I tis currently the top 20% holding 93% of the cash, I propose that if the top 20% held 99% of teh cash, would that scare you; I see your answer is no.
QuoteWhy should it? The top 20% pay roughly 80% of the tax burden. Who would you tax if you brought the wealthy down to middle-class? Are you going to start taxing everyone equally?
See the sematics? You;re saying bring down, I'm saying bring up. It's really more of your pessimism vs my optimism for the poor and MC. I would adjust taxes based upon how the wealth is distributed. We don;t want a country where most people are the same status, but we also don't want a country that's to spread that we have massive billionaires and massive homeless.
QuoteYeah i guess we need to do that in oder to continue this line of logic.
Or we could keep it and apply it to the poor millionaires that are being treated unFAIRly so we can use your logic.
QuoteNo you weren't. You're advocating the wealthy continue to be taxed as far as you can push it for the sole reason of bringing people down. Then you get touchy at the mention of a fair tax. You don't want anything close to similar.
FAIR is subjective, if you use it I'll use it and we won;t have the same definition. And your tiring bringing down the rich rhetoric is as pessimistic as it gets. I want to open programs from shelters to job training and on to bring people up. As well I want the debt controlled, that little 12T from your side.
QuoteAnd if you think there are laws or rich corporate conspiracry preventing people from succeeding then you aren't either.
Just keep ignoring class disparity and family privs.
QuoteWe have that. Government housing, food stamps, laws preventing being turned away at hospitals, unemployment benefits, etc. The truth is you don't want a safety net. You want the baseline raised no matter what the cost.
Yea, our baseline is that of a 3rd world country. And you want it reduced.
QuoteThe elite do fund them. You don't care that they fund them and want to tax them even further just to bring them down a notch or two.
And you want to be a pessimist, I want to bring everyone up with education and HC.
QuoteIf the elite aren't funding them then who is? It sure as shit isn't the rest of the country's taxes.
Perhaps you're acquainted with the debt that your party has given us most of. Just like the military overspending I constantly hear you bitching about, social svs get tacked on to the rubber check so the wealthy can slide.
QuoteYes, quick, change the subject.
Yes, quick, post a partial sentence of mine to avoid context. That is my main point, how am I changing?
QuoteLUCKY: Selfish - devoted to or caring only for oneself pretty much describes people who do not want others to have gov-provided HC under teh giuse of cost, esp when most of these subjects have no issue with 1 T on Iraq.
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Guise? So there's absolutely no concern over how to pay for it?
I have FAR more concern over providing, then cost. Just as the military, if we can't afford it we do it anyway. I see yours is the concern over the wealth of the rich. Kinda brings me to my compassion thread.
Also, no comment over how your assertion of selfish for me wanting basic HC is selfish based upon my defintion of it. Nice, run, be free.
QuoteLUCKY: Jealous - So I'm jealous of the rich if I want basic HC because I'm feeling resentment against someone because of that person's rivalry, success, or advantages. Wanting a hair transplant would fit in there, wanting a checkup does not.
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Nope. The jealous part come from the reason you started this thread. Your 'yet another reason to tax the rich' had nothing to do with healthcare. The sole purpose was to reduce the wealth gap. Reducing the gap would do absolutely nothing more than make you feel better. That's jealousy.
Yes, and the wealth gap resilts in the inaffordability of basic things like HC; you might have seen a thing or 2 in teh news about that little issue. Reducing the wealth gap would bring HC, education, and wellness, you don't want that - you like our exclusive society.
***LUCKY: Greedy - So I'm greedy if I want basic HC because I'm grasping, rapacious, selfish, avaricious, ravenous, voracious, gluttonous, insatiable, covetous and anxious. Yea, that as well make s a lot of sense, whereas the rich wanting tax cuts so they can climb back on Forbes' list are not these things.
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Nope. You're greedy because you want to further tax the rich for the purpose of bringing them down to other people's levels. You're greedy because you don't think laying the massive majority of the tax burden on the top 1% is enough. You're greedy because the billions of dollars they pay in taxes every year to fund pet projects isn't enough for you. We have a safety provided by the government and funded by the elite's taxes. But that's not enough. You want more and you want it provided at the expense of those better off than you. That's greed.
Read much? I do think laying the massive tax burden on the rich would be a good statrt, now they're at 40%, not > 50%. Get your numbers straight before posting your oh so cogent arguments.
Gluttonous and selflish are synoimous with greed, so to want basic ammenities is not greed. To be sad because I am not on the Forbes list anymore is greed.
Quote
When the stats indicate that many are w/o healthcare...
Isn't this why we have Medicare/Medicaid? If that's broken, why not fix just that part of the system.
We are all engines of karma
Quote
First time for everything!
Where's your beer?
We are all engines of karma
Bolas 5
QuoteI want to see everyone win.
You are "no child left behind." I never explained it in the other thread but that's pretty much the basic philosophy behind it. It sounds good, and it's a nice thought, but not at all realistic.
In the case of education, instead of separating the "special needs" children so teachers can give them the extra attention and time they need, for the most part they are put in regular classes. Now the teacher has to choose between going slow enough that all understand which frustrates and bores the smarter kids, or just move along at an average pace that these kids can't handle.
Oh and by the way, since everyone is a winner, you can't flunk anyone or hold them back a year, until high school, but generally if the parent threatens to sue, the kid is allowed to graduate anyways as school administrators are more concerned about their stats than teaching.
So how did we make everyone a winner? We lowered the bar enough and with some slight of hand, some smoke and mirrors, and some stats that don't reflect reality we just made everyone think they won.
But did they or us really win? No. We just removed the consequences of failure.
Nothing will ever make people all the same. Not everyone is going to win.
The fundamental problem with taxing heavily to provide "free" basic services to all (housing, food, health care) you get to the point that people don't even bother working or advancing which just widens the gap between the classes and the animosity and hatred of "those people."
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
i'm curious, what do you consider rich? where is the line over which you believe one should be taxed heavily for being rich?
"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com
"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com
QuoteI wonder how many ass-kickings it will take until the R's get it? This next one will be 3 in a row
sorry to burst your bubble, but the dems are at the peak of their power right now. 2010 will see the pendulum shift back the other way. dems will still maintain control of the house and the senate, but they will start to lose seats. that trend will continue until 2012 as well. right now i put obama's chances for re-election at 50/50 at best.
"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com
QuoteYea, as if I'm taking anything out on anyone. We'll see how things go, but HC is on the way, followed by the tax cut expiration, followed by more tax increases. Me happy - you pissed - too bad
I'm not "rich", but I did work my way thru college with full-time class loads and full-time work, and now work 60-70 hours a week, some of it at the expense of my health, to maintain a comfortable lifestyle. If I'm willing to work harder in order to earn more, why should I have to give that "more" to people who aren't so willing?
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
Ion01 2
QuoteQuotehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090928/ap_on_go_ot/us_census_income_gap_1
US income gap widens as poor take hit in recession
So aside from the fact that the top 20% hold 93% of the cash and 85% of all cash and asset, that's growing even more obscene. Taxing teh rich is the only way to reverse it.Quote
But they work so much harder and yada, yada, yada.
The fact is that no rich man got rich without either exploiting the "less fortunate" , "gaming the system", having rich relatives die , or being paid off by the government to waive their RIGHTS TO INVESTIGATE AND SUE OVER 9-11.
Blues,
Cliff
Military men are dumb,stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy"- Henry Kissenger
That is not a FACT!!! Both apple computers and microsoft started by young guys, one in his parents garage, that regularly attended a computer based "convention" and toyed with thier computers! In addition, how is it that when you give someone your money (remember you gave it, no one can force you to) you get a product in return there is no exploitation there! These evil rich people are the ones that make you life so easy! They are the reason you have a job! They are the reason you have things that make you life easier such as the computer you are reading this on or your washing machine or your house or appartment! They are the reason the average standard of living in america is higher that any country in the world!
In addition, your own explanation makes the government the bad guy:Quoteor being paid off by the government to waive their RIGHTS TO INVESTIGATE AND SUE OVER 9-11.
In this scenerio it is the government who is doing the wrong not the "rich".
And how does the government taking money from the rich help the poor? The poor have freedom! That means that are free to make thier own decisions and better themselves or not!
I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer."
---Benjamin Franklin
It is the government that is the problem! Its called welfare. Why should someone work hard and provide for themselves when they can just turn to the government and get money for doing nothing? Yea, maybe they don't get as cool as stuff as you do but guess what....they don't have to work! Seriously, when someone can get foodstamps and drive a new lexus there is a serious problem! These systems make people dependent on government and gives them no reason to provide for themselves! This is why you have 3rd and 4th generation families living on welfare. There is no reason for them to work for themselves! In addition, without the rich there is knowone to pay for healthcare! Once again it is the rich who are providing for people! And how pregidous and rediculous is it to assume that if someone has a lot of money it is only because they exploit and "game the system and such. Well, lets assume that is true and lets look at some other rich people that people like you often over look in this group. They are called politicians. They get rich by taking from you! You have no choice in the matter. They take your money through what are called taxes which you have to pay. Once again, it is the government that is the "bad guy" again. So you want to take the money from the rich people and give it to the rich people.....that sound like a great idea! Or even better, we will use your logic again: lets take from the corrupt and give it to the corrupt. Even better! Infact, lets take from the corrupt who must follow the law and give it to the corrupt who make the laws and can change them to meet thier needs or are excempt from the law because they made the law! That's the best one yet!
It is these and the ideas that you express that made the depression into a great depression thanks to FDR.
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx
Oh, and let me guess.....I am probably the one spewing hate when you are the one that is grouping and demonizing people with no evidence or fact......
billvon 3,130
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>OK, my bad then, having, let's say, marginal kidney failure that you
> have to wait until you're passed out to get help, dialysis . . .
No, you don't.
> If you play the ER game you are in debtor's prison until you can BK . .
We don't have debtor's prisons. You won't wind up in jail for ER bills.
> Compare Africa, parts of Asia, India and other toilets to make the US
>system of health look good.
?? It's not good - it needs a lot of work. But a system where everyone gets free care if they need it is far, far from obscene. I am sure you can find stuff wrong with it (so can I) but to call it obscene because you don't like how fast you are seen is the height of hyperbole.
> have to wait until you're passed out to get help, dialysis . . .
No, you don't.
> If you play the ER game you are in debtor's prison until you can BK . .
We don't have debtor's prisons. You won't wind up in jail for ER bills.
> Compare Africa, parts of Asia, India and other toilets to make the US
>system of health look good.
?? It's not good - it needs a lot of work. But a system where everyone gets free care if they need it is far, far from obscene. I am sure you can find stuff wrong with it (so can I) but to call it obscene because you don't like how fast you are seen is the height of hyperbole.
billvon 3,130
>No Mr.Von.., I just described *fiat currency*.
No. Solid gold coins were used instead of fiat currency, and they met the same criteria - their value was determined by demand for the coin. (Both as a precious metal and as an instrument of trade.)
No. Solid gold coins were used instead of fiat currency, and they met the same criteria - their value was determined by demand for the coin. (Both as a precious metal and as an instrument of trade.)
QuoteI want to see everyone win.
You cannot have everyone win when you control. You have win, lose or tie. You want to take another 10% of earnings, maybe? And then call them winners?
Two people can win only when working together via their individual choices. Many view Erin Andrews as a winner because of the free publicity she got. I understand that she does not view it as free, nor does she view herself as a winner in this.
Politics is about picking winners and losers. You are positing to take more from people. Much more in many cases.
To say that everyone wins is disingenuous and twisted.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Ion01 2
I have a great story about how the rich only get rich through exploiting others!
There is a very rich guy who owns a machine shop! He didn't graduate highschool and can only read enough to order food from a menu and even that doesn't go so well at times. He started as a poor teenager helping a shop build race engines. Eventually, he started his own shop building race engines and was making barely enough to keep his shop open for years. A little over 10 years ago he landed a contract with a company to build their engines. At the time they were only making 3 a month so it wasn't enough to really help but kept him afloat. Well, about a year ago he was making 100 engines a month for that same company and purchased 2 million dollar machines to machine the head to the engines as well as the engine blocks and now he is rich!
Wait....there was no exploiting at all......only hard work..... but I thought all rich people only got rich because the explioted others or had a rich relative die or was payed off by the government.....thats so strange......I mean, he can still hardly read!
There is a very rich guy who owns a machine shop! He didn't graduate highschool and can only read enough to order food from a menu and even that doesn't go so well at times. He started as a poor teenager helping a shop build race engines. Eventually, he started his own shop building race engines and was making barely enough to keep his shop open for years. A little over 10 years ago he landed a contract with a company to build their engines. At the time they were only making 3 a month so it wasn't enough to really help but kept him afloat. Well, about a year ago he was making 100 engines a month for that same company and purchased 2 million dollar machines to machine the head to the engines as well as the engine blocks and now he is rich!
Wait....there was no exploiting at all......only hard work..... but I thought all rich people only got rich because the explioted others or had a rich relative die or was payed off by the government.....thats so strange......I mean, he can still hardly read!
Lucky... 0
QuoteQuote
When the stats indicate that many are w/o healthcare...
Isn't this why we have Medicare/Medicaid? If that's broken, why not fix just that part of the system.
It doesn't cover people that lose their job and have to retrain and go w/o HC for years sometimes. And a myriad of other situations that aren't based upon laziness. How about low income young families that never really had it? Quit and fall into state gov aid or keep woring and be above the threshold to get aid, barely. The system advantages people to be lazy in that regard.
Bolas 5
QuoteQuit and fall into state gov aid or keep woring and be above the threshold to get aid, barely. The system advantages people to be lazy in that regard.
On this, we agree. However the solution should involve creating less lazy people, not more.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.
Quotea system where everyone gets free care if they need it is far, far from obscene.
Will I have free healthcare, Bill? Or will I be paying for healthcare? All of the talk I've seen indicates that, yes, I will be paying for my healthcare and for that of others. For me it will not be "free."
For others it will be free. It it was free for all you would have a point. But it isn't free for all. Nothing that runs 2-3 trillion per year will be "free."
My wife is hotter than your wife.
billvon 3,130
>Will I have free healthcare, Bill? Or will I be paying for healthcare?
You have free healthcare now if you want it via the JohnRich plan. However, I suspect you prefer the healthcare you get via a better health plan (which you pay for.)
>All of the talk I've seen indicates that, yes, I will be paying for my
>healthcare and for that of others.
Correct - just as you are now.
>But it isn't free for all.
Nothing really is.
You have free healthcare now if you want it via the JohnRich plan. However, I suspect you prefer the healthcare you get via a better health plan (which you pay for.)
>All of the talk I've seen indicates that, yes, I will be paying for my
>healthcare and for that of others.
Correct - just as you are now.
>But it isn't free for all.
Nothing really is.
Lucky... 0
QuoteYou are "no child left behind." I never explained it in the other thread but that's pretty much the basic philosophy behind it. It sounds good, and it's a nice thought, but not at all realistic.
I'm really not. I don't have HC, but I don't have major bills or kids to support, so it's not that bad, I just want HC that doesn't exclude preexisters, etc.
As for realistic, uni-care not realistic? 4% of the world doing it differently is not realistic; you have that backwards. 12T debt is unrealistic, but the neo-cons have found a way. So what you call unrealistic is reality.
QuoteOh and by the way, since everyone is a winner, you can't flunk anyone or hold them back a year, until high school, but generally if the parent threatens to sue, the kid is allowed to graduate anyways as school administrators are more concerned about their stats than teaching.
Now your tangenting to assume parents would sue. And an educated kid, even if being held back is what is needed, creates a winning society.
QuoteSo how did we make everyone a winner? We lowered the bar enough and with some slight of hand, some smoke and mirrors, and some stats that don't reflect reality we just made everyone think they won.
When you see how stratified the society is, the winners know who they are. And bringing people up is a way of lowering the bar? I see that as raising the bar, but that's just me.
QuoteNothing will ever make people all the same. Not everyone is going to win.
Who said anything about making them the same? I wouldn't want that, that's akin to Communism. I want a variable and I want sucess to be rewarded, just not failure to be punnished.
QuoteThe fundamental problem with taxing heavily to provide "free" basic services to all (housing, food, health care) you get to the point that people don't even bother working or advancing which just widens the gap between the classes and the animosity and hatred of "those people."
Widens the gap - doesn't get much wider than we now have it....don't get your logic there. Countries with Socialism have a closer disparity; your point isn't factually supported in any way.
Animosity of those people - There is far more animosity here now than in Socialized countries.
I want to tax to make the rich pay for their gluttony. They will still be filthy rich, and that's ok, just quit getting the free riude up top, even Warren Buffet said soemthing like that.
Free svs - tie in how taxing and spending are related. Not in some common sense moddel, but in reality.
Nope. Couldn't care less. Me calling that post an excuse for the lazy didn't have anything to do with the newly laid off or the poor. It was a response to our tax evading friend here.
Sure didn't. I didn't say anything about any particular group. I posted a response to Cliffs' post.
I never said anything about the poor at all. I made a comment about the lazy. You associated that with poor and ran with it.
I didn't excuse anyone. I said I'm torn on unemployment benefits, if that's what you're referring to.
I figured you didn't have anything convincing to say.
Really? Just because you don't agree then you suddenly know me, I guess. How many time have you personally picked up kid's medical bill, painted a strangers house, taken in a homeless guy, worked at a soup kitchen, slept on a gym floor for a week to help a strange town, etc....
Advocating tax hikes for everyone but yourself does not, in any way, mean you care for others.
So when you said "the polls, they are a changin" you meant polls that will happen a year from now?
Holy hell
Ah, but that wasn't your point. Your point was that we need to increase taxes on the wealthy to reduce the gap. It had nothing to do with the economy. ie; jealousy
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Stay positive and love your life.
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