When you hear "We need to do this quickly"......

[rushmc 23]

....consider the following.


Hmm, if you think about it it becomes a little scary.

So, Obama and the Dems want to get the “health care” reform bill passed before the August break. Why? There was a bill in print. What does something in print contain? Details! Once some of the “details” became known the opposition to the bill grew!

Another bill is written. Pass it fast is called for. Why? Well once the “details” became known Obama and his admin had to admit there was a back door path to free medical care of illegal immigrants That fact was denied at first but they eventually admitted it by saying they would allow a restriction to that “detail”. Damn details!

How about in the past? The “Amnesty” bill comes to mind. It was to be a path and a tool to dealing with those here illegally. But, when the “details” were looked at it became clear that this nothing more (with a little crap to do and pay) than get out of jail free card and proceed directly to Go and collect your $200. Those “details” put an end to that once the people found out.

How about this week? It was proposed that ALL bills in their complete entirety be posted for no less than 72 hours before , yes BEFORE, they can be voted on. Hmm, why would the parties (both of them) kill that? Well, that pesky little word comes in this post yet again. “Detail”.

NOW, Obama and the Dems want to pass a bill BEFORE it is written. WTF??? Why would they want to do that. Opppps. You all get it now? Yep, what is wanted can’t survive the light of day once the… ….. …. ….”details” are known. The CBO wants (wait for it) yep, “detail” so they can do a more accurate cost analysis of the (yet unwritten) bill. Congress does not want to do that! Why? “Detail”

Speed can cover “detail” today. Speed is now a tool of choice when it comes to pushing an agenda on the people.

Now, I know “spin” will become a topic in this thread. I understand spin. In the case of political debates it used extensively. BY BOTH SIDES. I feel for the most part it balances out. The “details” usually are at least understood in part when looked at though the spin.

I am not saying this is a tool of the left. It has become a tool of government. It is a disgusting and despicable tool. When ever any of us hear the gov say “we need to do this fast”, your red flags should be raised high.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rhys 0]

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Speed can cover “detail” today. Speed is now a tool of choice when it comes to pushing an agenda on the people.

Now, I know “spin” will become a topic in this thread. I understand spin. In the case of political debates it used extensively. BY BOTH SIDES. I feel for the most part it balances out. The “details” usually are at least understood in part when looked at though the spin.

Hmmmm, a war with a country or a new healthcare system that is affordable for all...

...hmmmm, yest the left and right use the same tactics don't they.

The patriot act, the war on terror...

For fucks sake!

Your adgenda is quite clear, your adgenda lost the election and your adgenda needs to face the facts, america is sick of being under the thumb of greedy right wing, violent, selfish cunts.

As much as you and your mates in neo cons corner might agree with each other, the majority don't.

Your time is over, so learn to respect your new presedent, your mutiny is disrespectful and tasteless.

You expect the same of those when you guys are in office, now you are just a sore loser along with all your other retard mates.

You would rather see Obama fail so you can be right, than see you country be the great country it could be.

You should be ashamed of yourself. You and all your fuckwit mates that agree with your pathetic neo con ideals.

You should be made to walk the plank!
Your propoganda, is no better than hitlers.

your ideals are transparent, and being proud of selfishness is very typical of you and your parties form.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rushmc 23]

Given that you completely ignored the point I will respond only to this.


You dont even hide the PA's anymore do you

I want Obamas policies to fail because those said policies are wrong. Get it?



No, I suppose you dont

But, if you are so sure in your agenda, why not post the bills 72 hours beore a vote?

Oh ya, details

If my side is loosing so bad why is Obama having such a hard time passing the bills?

Yep, details

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Speed can cover “detail” today. Speed is now a tool of choice when it comes to pushing an agenda on the people.

Now, I know “spin” will become a topic in this thread. I understand spin. In the case of political debates it used extensively. BY BOTH SIDES. I feel for the most part it balances out. The “details” usually are at least understood in part when looked at though the spin.

Hmmmm, a war with a country or a new healthcare system that is affordable for all...

...hmmmm, yest the left and right use the same tactics don't they.

The patriot act, the war on terror...

For fucks sake!

Your adgenda is quite clear, your adgenda lost the election and your adgenda needs to face the facts, america is sick of being under the thumb of greedy right wing, violent, selfish cunts.

As much as you and your mates in neo cons corner might agree with each other, the majority don't.

Your time is over, so learn to respect your new presedent, your mutiny is disrespectful and tasteless.

You expect the same of those when you guys are in office, now you are just a sore loser along with all your other retard mates.

You would rather see Obama fail so you can be right, than see you country be the great country it could be.

You should be ashamed of yourself. You and all your fuckwit mates that agree with your pathetic neo con ideals.

You should be made to walk the plank!
Your propoganda, is no better than hitlers.

your ideals are transparent, and being proud of selfishness is very typical of you and your parties form.

You know, I re-read this and it dawned on me. NONE of this, zero zip nada would have been passed with out subtantial support from YOUR party.

My feeling is you are so mad because this President, whom you support blindly (same goes for the whold government) is failing in pushing its radical agendas sooooooooooooooo badly.

Seek help, you will sleep better at night

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rhaig 0]

The way this government was set up was to function slowly. Rapid change is usually change that wasn't given enough consideration. The way our system was designed took this into account. To ask for speed is to ask for less consideration and thought into the possible outcomes.

Certainly look at the patriot act! Passed in near record time. Look at the buried details. I'd think any problem that's being solved (or attempted to) by legislation can wait another 72 hours.

--
Rob

[Lucky... 0]

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Your adgenda is quite clear, your adgenda lost the election and your adgenda needs to face the facts, america is sick of being under the thumb of greedy right wing, violent, selfish cunts.

I'll sponsor your citizenship You rock, dude!

[Lucky... 0]

What PA's, he was talking about Parties, congress, agendas, etc.

[Lucky... 0]

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The way this government was set up was to function slowly. Rapid change is usually change that wasn't given enough consideration. The way our system was designed took this into account. To ask for speed is to ask for less consideration and thought into the possible outcomes.

Certainly look at the patriot act! Passed in near record time. Look at the buried details. I'd think any problem that's being solved (or attempted to) by legislation can wait another 72 hours.

It was set to move quickly or slowly but let's be real, it's been going since he came into office and not much has been done even with his prodding, so let's be real, it has moved along slowly.

Here's an example of slow-moving major legislation: NAFTA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

In the U.S., Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton.

It took just under a year from the meeting with GHWB to the signing into law. That was a multinational law, so if this HC takes a year, good.

[justinb138 0]

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Hmmmm, a war with a country or a new healthcare system that is affordable for all...

Except those aren't the options. The options are a war with a country AND a new healthcare bureaucracy so hideous that a good number of the president's own party wouldn't even vote for it.

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...hmmmm, yest the left and right use the same tactics don't they.

um, yeah.

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The patriot act, the war on terror...

The patriot act, which Obama supports renewing, and the war on terror, which Obama is continuing...

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For fucks sake!

Amen.

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Your adgenda is quite clear, your adgenda lost the election and your adgenda needs to face the facts, america is sick of being under the thumb of greedy right wing, violent, selfish cunts.

Yes, I, an individual, did lose in this election, as did every other individual in this country. Well, there might be some CEOs and Bankers that didn't, but most everyone lost.

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As much as you and your mates in neo cons corner might agree with each other, the majority don't.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

Hmm.... not a neocon, and it seems you're wrong (about the majority agreeing with the democrats anyway).

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Your time is over, so learn to respect your new presedent, your mutiny is disrespectful and tasteless.

I respect people that earn my respect; the president has done nothing to earn that respect. The last one didn't either.

And "mutiny"? Your expectation that people "follow orders" of an elected official is not only ridiculous, it's almost frightening.

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You expect the same of those when you guys are in office, now you are just a sore loser along with all your other retard mates.

Keep running your mouth like that and you're going to get sent to the principal's office.

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You would rather see Obama fail so you can be right, than see you country be the great country it could be.

I would rather see Obama fail before I like being able to make my own choices about health care, I don't like the idea of redistributing wealth, and I'd really like the dollar to have at least some purchasing power by the time he's out of office.

If you spend more time reading and less time making harsh generalizations you'd know that. Unfortunately you seem to think arguing your point against your view of conservative ideals is somehow the same as arguing it against true conservative ideals, even if you're way off on your observations (which you are).

Governments don't make countries great, people do.

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You should be ashamed of yourself. You and all your fuckwit mates that agree with your pathetic neo con ideals.

Not sure that anyone said they agree with neocon ideals. You really ought to start reading first.

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You should be made to walk the plank!
Your propoganda, is no better than hitlers.

Translation: "You disagree with me, and therefore should be killed!".

Nice, real nice.

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your ideals are transparent, and being proud of selfishness is very typical of you and your parties form.

You make a statement implying that people who disagree should be killed and then gripe at people for being selfish?

Seriously?

[justinb138 0]

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That was a multinational law, so if this HC takes a year, good.

They're going to try to get it done ASAP, because they know that if they don't get it done before the 2010 elections it's never going to happen.

[Lucky... 0]

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That was a multinational law, so if this HC takes a year, good.

They're going to try to get it done ASAP, because they know that if they don't get it done before the 2010 elections it's never going to happen.

That's part of it and Obama wants to raise taxes and probably get out of Iraq, he's been holding off until HC passes to avoid rocking teh boat. As well, you assume a Repub rebound in 2010. Maybe, but let's see. A lot of Repubs in teh senate are up and they've already started jumping ship, so the spread could get worse. And when peopel start to enjoy HC it could be curtains for the R's.

[justinb138 0]

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That's part of it and Obama wants to raise taxes and probably get out of Iraq, he's been holding off until HC passes to avoid rocking teh boat.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I often find that when people "want" to do something they have the ability to do and still don't do it, the reason is because they like the idea more than the act itself.

"Skydiving? I've always wanted to do that...."

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

The way this government was set up was to function slowly. Rapid change is usually change that wasn't given enough consideration. The way our system was designed took this into account. To ask for speed is to ask for less consideration and thought into the possible outcomes.

Certainly look at the patriot act! Passed in near record time. Look at the buried details. I'd think any problem that's being solved (or attempted to) by legislation can wait another 72 hours.

It was set to move quickly or slowly but let's be real, it's been going since he came into office and not much has been done even with his prodding, so let's be real, it has moved along slowly.

Here's an example of slow-moving major legislation: NAFTA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

In the U.S., Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton.

It took just under a year from the meeting with GHWB to the signing into law. That was a multinational law, so if this HC takes a year, good.

And many of us did not it when Bush did it either. Same as when he pushed the bail out part 1.

Difference is you would support Obama and his admin and agenda regardless. I for one, did not support any of the Bush admins spending or added programs here. He still was right going into Iraq however.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Lucky... 0]

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Quote

That's part of it and Obama wants to raise taxes and probably get out of Iraq, he's been holding off until HC passes to avoid rocking teh boat.

I'll believe it when I see it.

I often find that when people "want" to do something they have the ability to do and still don't do it, the reason is because they like the idea more than the act itself.

"Skydiving? I've always wanted to do that...."

Nah, HC is a touchy issue, Clinton couldn't even get the then Democratic Congress to send him a bill, Obama is driving this issue and tending to the recession, then after HC gets passed you will see the righties cry like bitches when Bush's 2010 tax cut expires and more taxes get piled on. I think he will pull out of the ME fast, which is why I hope HC passes, so we can save lives of our heroes and save money, in that order.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The way this government was set up was to function slowly. Rapid change is usually change that wasn't given enough consideration. The way our system was designed took this into account. To ask for speed is to ask for less consideration and thought into the possible outcomes.

Certainly look at the patriot act! Passed in near record time. Look at the buried details. I'd think any problem that's being solved (or attempted to) by legislation can wait another 72 hours.

It was set to move quickly or slowly but let's be real, it's been going since he came into office and not much has been done even with his prodding, so let's be real, it has moved along slowly.

Here's an example of slow-moving major legislation: NAFTA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement

In the U.S., Bush, who had worked to "fast track" the signing prior to the end of his term, ran out of time and had to pass the required ratification and signing into law to incoming president Bill Clinton.

It took just under a year from the meeting with GHWB to the signing into law. That was a multinational law, so if this HC takes a year, good.

And many of us did not it when Bush did it either. Same as when he pushed the bail out part 1.

Difference is you would support Obama and his admin and agenda regardless. I for one, did not support any of the Bush admins spending or added programs here. He still was right going into Iraq however.

>>>>>>>>>>And many of us did not it when Bush did it either. Same as when he pushed the bail out part 1.

I think you're confusing Bush's. NAFTA was elder Bush - GHWB, and the Bailout was GWB. Like it or not, my point was that our legislative processes works in a very malliable way; sometimes fast, sometimes slowly - that was the point I was responding to.

>>>>>>>>>>Difference is you would support Obama and his admin and agenda regardless.

Why make foolish and erroneous assumptions? I diliked the cash 4 clunkers on many levels. I disliked a few things CLinton has done. All in all, the Dems RIGHT NOW are for the people and R's represent the rich - hard to argue.

>>>>>>>>>>I for one, did not support any of the Bush admins spending or added programs here.

Which programs did you dislike? List them.

>>>>>>>>>He still was right going into Iraq however.

Yea, flawed, cherry-picked evidence, spent 1 trillion to date and 4300+ heroes and 1300+ civilians. For what? You're in the stark minority there. Resistance is huge with no sign of winning. It will be another Viet Nam whenever we leave.

Obama will get us HC, get us out of the ME, raise taxes on the rich who have had a field day for most of the last 28 years. Times, they are a gettin better.


Oh, and check for your broken grammar windows before you start throwing rocks.

[rushmc 23]

Yep

You missed the irony

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Andy9o8 2]

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When you hear "We need to do this quickly"......

...I'm 16 again, in the back seat of my dad's Dodge, parked up at the reservoir.

[rhys 0]

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You dont even hide the PA's anymore do you[Frown]

I try to refrain from using personal attacks, whilst being as truthful and clearcut with my feelings as possible, believe me if PA's were allowed you would know about it!

I am sick and tired of being polite to fucksticks that blatantly only give a shit about themselves, you continue to start threads that oppose the very principals that I base my life on, and have been bought up with. It bewilders me that people can be such greedy assholes, with little thought to anyone but themselves and the people who are in agreeance with them.

I have grown up in a socialist/capitalist environment, i know SH works.

Do you not have a heart? do you not get bad feelings when you take advantage of somebody?

Or are you just in a dreamworld?

Obamas policies may not be 100% to begin with but the principal is there, it is the principal that you oppose not the nitty grittites.

Take ACC, the socilaised accident insurance in new Zealand for example, it is the oldest form of its kind in the world and has been going for over 100 years.

It has not been without its hicups and problems but the amount of hicups and problems it solves is way beyond what it has made.


You would rather everyone had a gun turret in their front yard, the world was at war and you were the CEO of the company that has the monoply selling all the weapons.

Your adgenda is so transparent, yet because there are many others here agree with you, you fail to see your weakness...

...Greed!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Lucky... 0]

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Do you not have a heart? do you not get bad feelings when you take advantage of somebody?

Agree all the way with ur whole post. This point here describes sociopathy, which, IMO is what the Republican Party and conservatism in general.

[rhys 0]

I have been reading a few of your posts lately, are you an american in zimbabwe, or not an american?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Lucky... 0]

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I have been reading a few of your posts lately, are you an american in zimbabwe, or not an american?

The Zimbabwe thing is just a joke. I'm an American considering leaving. Obama is a help, will it be enough? How long are u here for? Are you naturalizing or just doing a work visa?

[jgoose71 0]

As I have stated before, the reason socialism works in New Zealand, is the same reason it works in Canada-
Canada has the US to help provide security and New Zealand has Australia. It's very convenient. Does New Zealand Even have an Air force? What a huge savings.

Here in the US, where all the worlds economies combine, we have to ensure our security for the sake of the worlds markets. Our capitalist markets have been a great engine for other markets to grow in. China, India, Taiwan, nothing is actually make in america anymore. What would happened to the New Zealand economy when the US went belly up?

Also, from your original post I got the impression that you agree with signing things before they are read. I am sending you some documents, don't bother to read, just sign. I promise it is for the greater good

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[justinb138 0]

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I'm an American considering leaving.

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

[jgoose71 0]

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I'm an American considering leaving.

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

+1

I may leave the US soon also. It's a sad day when you have to move to China for more freedoms and opportunities.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[1969912 0]

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I have been reading a few of your posts lately, are you an american in zimbabwe, or not an american?

****

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG