I Suppose We Should Thank Joe Wilson

[mnealtx 0]

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It's in Capital Letters in the title NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.

Correct. "Payment" != "coverage"

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it doesn't say anything about coverage but is implied in the title.

No, it's not.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,108]

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It's in Capital Letters in the title NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.

Correct. "Payment" != "coverage"

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it doesn't say anything about coverage but is implied in the title.

No, it's not.

Twist and spin, twist and spin, it's all you can do.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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It's in Capital Letters in the title NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.

Correct. "Payment" != "coverage"

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it doesn't say anything about coverage but is implied in the title.

No, it's not.

Twist and spin, twist and spin, it's all you can do.

"Words have meanings".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ryoder 1,590]

A review of the docs for the purpose of keeping facts in the discussion:

Obama Proposal: http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/HealthPlanFull.pdf
(Just a proposal, w/o a lot of specifics.)


Senate bill: http://help.senate.gov/BAI09A84_xml.pdf

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SEC. 3116. DEFINITIONS
...
(2) ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL
The term eligible individual means an individual who is
(A) a citizen or national of the United States or an alien lawfully
admitted to the United States for permanent residence or an
alien lawfully present in the United States;

House: http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

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SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments
for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are
not lawfully present in the United States.

Now will anyone claiming illegal aliens are covered, please cite the relevant section of one of the House or Senate bills, or please provide a link to a newer version of the bill.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 3,079]

>Obama was a dick headed moron . . .

Have you really sunk that low? That's the best you can do? Wow.

[rushmc 23]

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>Obama was a dick headed moron . . .

Have you really sunk that low? That's the best you can do? Wow.

If the Fu shits!

And seeing how you call others out your post is really hard hitting

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Lucky... 0]

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Then are company pension plans socialist, as well? You have the same situation with people paying into them and then getting benefits at a later date.

If they are mandated by the government they are socialist. Unemployment compensation is solialist in that the employer does not have the option to participate. Collectivism and redistribution. Now if you buy or your employer volluntarily buys short term disability, etc that is not socialism, it is voluntary. If it's compulsory by the government then it has a socialist aspect to it.

Companies provide pensions as an option, there are none that I'm aware of that are mandated other than perhaps the USPS and I would then call that an aspect of socialism if it is government mandated, perhaps more on the fringe. I'm not saying it isn't earned, just collected and redistributed.

[Lucky... 0]

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Keith Olberman kicked the shit out of him on the Countdown last night in his special comments. His comments can be found on the Countdown website.

The real problem with the Republican Party is that the party of Real Statesmen like the late Everitt Dirksen, Charley Halleck and Barry Goldwater has been hijacked by these ultra right wing nutjobs like Wilson etc.

The conservative movement hasn't mad many real dignified representatives since Eisenhower. GHWB was a very good president, but even if they are composed their agendas as often so off-track that they are relegated to not being true conservatives.

[mnealtx 0]

Thanks for the explanation - I see your point, although I'm not sure I agree with it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 23]

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Should we also be denying illegal aliens the ability to buy car insurance because they're illegal?

HEll YES!!. They should not be able to get a license or a car

Of course, that means that when we get into an accident with one, we're the ones who pay, rather than them.

Personally, I think that requiring everyone to pay for insurance is better. Really. It's a separate problem from illegal aliens -- if someone is illegal and buys something should they get to keep it?

Right now there are companies that simply don't pay their day laborers, knowing that because most of them are illegal, there wno't be any repercussions. Does the fact that illegals are victimized make it OK?

Note: This is not to say that I think that it's just fine for illegal aliens to be here. I don't. But not to require the same duties of them means that they will have fewer expenses than law-abiding citizens.

Wendy P.

Damn this is twisted logic wendy

I understand your point but sheeesh........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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The twisting, spinning and outright lying by your side in order to criticize on this issue shows that you really don't have a case.

YA, and Obama finally got called on it. Inapropreiate as it was.........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,079]

>YA, and Obama finally got called on it.

Yep. And we all know how that turned out. Wilson apologized and his opponent raked in the cash. Heck, if a few more republicans "call him out" the democrats could get a 70-seat majority. I'll bet there are a lot of democrats out there praying for more Joe Wilsons (and more RushMCs) to guarantee their victories in the next election.

[riddler 0]

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The real reason Congressman Wilson Shouted out was that in the back of his head he was probably thinking of the $435,296 in Campaign Contributions his PAC received from the Medical Insurance Lobby. I'm sure he doesn't want to loose this gravy train.

WHAT?? Are you saying that money is this politician's motive for opposing healthcare, and not the best interest of his constituents? Why, I've never heard of such a thing.

I wonder who is paying off Obama and his cronies for trying to reduce health insurance costs, and provide basic needs to the people of America? Funny, I can't think of any corporations or special interest that could actually profit by that.

Today, Wilson raised $200,000 to oppose healthcare reform. His political opponent claims to have raised $750,000 in response to the outburst.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Lucky... 0]

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I suppose we should thank Congressman Joe Wilson for exposing the depravity the Republican Partei is willing to sink to.

In all my life, I have NEVER heard a member of Congress call the President of the United States a liar during a joint session of Congress. Not to Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon (who was a liear...), Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr. Clinton (another real life liar), or Bush II. None of them. No Democrat, no Republican, ever displayed such a vile or venomous display to an elected President.

But this is what the Republicans - a party of liars - are willing to sink to. A party so obsessed with power and so enraged at the loss of power because the electorate finally got wise to them, that their number 1 mission is to wreck any administration but their own.

But then there's nothing new about this either, it's only been a few years since Vice President cheney told Senator Patrick Leahy to "fuck off" on the floor of the US Senate.

The Republicans seem to need to have their mouths publicly washed out with a bar of Ivory Soap. They are a disgusting and foul mouthed gaggle, unworthy of any public forum until they can learn some manners.

In the meantime, I think speaker Pelosi might have the option of expelling Congressman Jones for his behavior - Congress DOES have the right to make and enforce its own rules. Jones hould be thrown out the door on his ass.

Seriously? Sure it is a case when you want to say "pot meet kettle" but it is crazy to think the democrats are so truthful. I personally think Obama is lying straight to the American people. Actually I know he is but so are all the other politicians on both sides of the isle. They can lie all they want as long as it does not impact my life! Clinton screwing around and lying about it is something I do not give a rats ass about but Obama's lies directly impact me and my children as did some of the lies Bush told! I love that you call the GOP the "party of liars" like the dems are such good people. I'm sorry but this is just laughable!!!

If you look at agenda from each side I think you can find the Dems far more noble in their agenda. Most Congress members are millionaires, most non-Congress members in the USA are not. The Dems in Congress want to bring economic stability to all Americans, whereas the Republican agenda seems to want tax cut, which only really help the rich, and they want social cuts.

Socialized uni-care doesn't help millonaires, it helps many others outside them. What advantage does Obama, Pelosi, Clinton, etc have to establish Uni-care? Does it mean they can finally visit the doctor? Of course not, it means they can fullfill an humanist agenda; bring us up to world standards as far as all Americans receiving healthcare. After Obama's healthcare passage he will next reduce the military and raise taxes as GHWB did to start curbing the debt. Will that help him personally?

But when you're a millionaire and you advocate tax cuts you are advocating your position. This is too close to greed at a personal gain agenda.

There was a guy 150 years ago who did the same thing, he freed millions of people out of slavery for no personal gain, in fact it cost him his life. Remember that great first Republican president? The Republicans won the presidency for 44 of the next 52 years from 1860 because they were so great and the Dems / Whigs were so rotten and so self-motivated with their agendas; what happened to those great Republicans? They are so bent on self-motivated agendas and so willing to ignore the underclass, a concept for which the party at its origin rejected. I pray they find their way again and become so great they beat the Dems, until then we need the Dems to help the underclass.


This is why the lies from the Republican Party are so damaging. Sure both sides lie, it's politics, but when your lies are venemous and self-fullfilling they are so much more damaging and reveal perhaps an evil agenda. Lying about a trillion dollar war is not the same as lying about a fling. And when one side holds the other to the fire for a meaningless lie and then commits that same lie (Larry Craig, etc) and looks past it, then they are hypocritical liars. Generally people in these positions don't go overboard with their witchhunts knowing they are also witches, but the Republicans have also done that. The drubbing the Republicans took the last 2 elections was well-warranted and will probbaly continue until they fix themselves. Of course that could be decades as people are learning that 2/3 of the nations total debt since its inception occurred under the last 3 Republican presidents. And if we examined more indepth we could probably attribute 5/6 of that to the Republicans, so are teh Republicans going the way of the Whig? It seesm they have too big a follwoing, but so did the Whigs in the mid 1800s'......

[billvon 3,079]

Some tidbits on Joe Wilson's heroic stand against government involvement in health care:

=======================
As a retired Army National Guard colonel, Wilson gets a lot of benefits (one of which, apparently, was not a full appreciation of the customs, traditions, and courtesies that mandate respect for one's commander in chief). And with four sons in the armed services, the entire Wilson brood has enjoyed multiple generations of free military medical coverage, known as TRICARE.

Yes, it's true. As politicos and town-hall criers debate the finer points of the public option, employer mandates, coverage for undocumented immigrants, and who's more Hitler-like, they seem to miss a larger point: the United States has single-payer health care. It covers 9.5 million active-duty servicemen and women, military retirees, and their dependents including almost a 10th of all Californians and Floridians, and nearly a quarter of a million residents of Wilson's home state.

Military beneficiaries like Wilson who, as a retiree, is eligible for lifetime coverage, never have to worry about an eye exam, a CT scan, a prolonged labor, or an open-heart surgery. They have access not only to the military's 133,500 uniformed health professionals, but cooperating private doctors as well whose fees are paid by the Department of Defense. It's high-quality care, too: surveys from 2007 and 2008 list TRICARE among "the best health insurer(s) in the nation" by customer satisfaction. Yet Wilson insists government-run health care is a problem.
======================
"As a 31-year Army Guard and Reserve veteran, I know the importance of TRICARE," [Joe Wilson] said in a press release. "The number of individuals who choose to enroll in TRICARE continues to rise because TRICARE is a low cost, comprehensive health plan that is portable and available in some form world-wide." He went on to call TRICARE "world class health care," concluding on a personal note. "I am grateful to have four sons now serving in the military, and I know that their families appreciate the availability of TRICARE," he said.
====================

It's pretty much a guarantee these days. A family values politician who stands up for marriage? He's diddling three chicks at once (but not his wife,) A politician strongly opposes gay marriage? He's soliciting male prostitutes. A guy who strongly and vocally opposes government intrusion into healthcare? He and his family have government healthcare.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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What ever happened there, Obama was a dick headed moron

I think this sentence from you is so very typical. To you it really doesn't matter what happened, you have your beliefs and opinions (and sometimes I think your own version of facts), and nothing that happens, nothing that gets presented can alter that for you.

I don't know how you get to that altered state, but I hope you aren't sharing with anybody....

[Lucky... 0]

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Thanks for the explanation - I see your point, although I'm not sure I agree with it.

Fair enough, just one man's perspective.

Peace bro.

[rushmc 23]

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What ever happened there, Obama was a dick headed moron

I think this sentence from you is so very typical. To you it really doesn't matter what happened, you have your beliefs and opinions (and sometimes I think your own version of facts), and nothing that happens, nothing that gets presented can alter that for you.



I don't know how you get to that altered state, but I hope you aren't sharing with anybody....

I know what happened. Obama stepped in it regardless of what he beleived one way or another.

Unfortunatly for you the places you get YOUR "news" did not go into it in depth as to what really happened. No, they helped turn it into a photo op for your hero.

So, "typical" of me or not, the truth stings, regardless or your spin.

and, who I share with is not your or your Obamas business. keep your nose to yourself and away from me.

But, it is so typical for those like you to wiggle you butt into others afares

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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>YA, and Obama finally got called on it.

Yep. And we all know how that turned out. Wilson apologized and his opponent raked in the cash. Heck, if a few more republicans "call him out" the democrats could get a 70-seat majority. I'll bet there are a lot of democrats out there praying for more Joe Wilsons (and more RushMCs) to guarantee their victories in the next election.

you can hope
But there are not enough Joe Wilsons out there to save Obama from himself

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,079]

>But there are not enough Joe Wilsons out there to save Obama from himself . . .

Perhaps not. But there may be enough RushMC's.

[rushmc 23]

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>But there are not enough Joe Wilsons out there to save Obama from himself . . .

Perhaps not. But there may be enough RushMC's.

Glad you think I have that kind of power or influence. However, i know better.

thanks again

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[downwardspiral 0]

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Well let me first say the final question looks suspiciously like a plant. What was wrong with the kid who had the mic being the actual final question? Nope wrong kid had the mic.

So you don't have any actual INFORMATION to support of your opinion. Just a prejudiced guess.

Kinda like rushmc's posts.

No... more like Obama. You remember right? "The police acted stupidly."

Seriously tho.... is proclaiming "YOU CAN'T PROVE IT" all you got?

So I was right, you are making a pure unadulterated GUESS based on your own prejudices, with absolutely no information whatsoever to support it. You have nada, zilch, zip... to support your accusation (even less, in fact, than the "truthers" have ).

It's not my job to prove your silly prejudiced guess wrong, it's your job to confirm it.

Of course it's my opinion and it's no more prejudiced than your very own... professor. No more prejudiced than Obama's.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[sundevil777 102]

Obama lied when he said that he wasn't interested in eliminating employee based health insurance. He has many times previously admitted that is precisely what he wants to do, that he thinks that is the ultimate goal. He also admits that it will take a while to achieve that goal, but if he wants to now state that is not his goal, then he needs to acknowledge that he's changed his position - instead of pretending that he never held it at all.

He also lied when he said that the debt wouldn't be raised a penny for the program, that hundreds of billions would be saved form elimination of waste and abuse...so many presidents have made that same promise to magically stop such waste, but we are just supposed to believe him. Even if he was able to succeed at reducing waste, the program would still raise the deficit.

It is too bad the pres isn't challenged by the opposition as in parliamentary systems. That would be refreshing to hear something besides clapping. Oh, that's right, the dems have booed during speeches...anyway, it should be expected.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I know what happened. Obama stepped in it regardless of what he beleived one way or another.

Unfortunatly for you the places you get YOUR "news" did not go into it in depth as to what really happened. No, they helped turn it into a photo op for your hero.

Your statement said that regardless of what happened, and then gave your feelings about Obama. I think that as usual your grammar and spelling wasn't quite up to par, end you meant something different.

That's whee my statement came in. That your error, in my opinion, indicated what was truly going on inside your head.

An since so many staunch republicans, like yourself, turn out to be closeted homosexuals, I have to wonder about your focus on my butt.

[billvon 3,079]

>Glad you think I have that kind of power or influence.

You, alone, don't. But enough Joe Wilsons, or enough RushMC's, do. They set the tone of the party - and that's how people see it.

The republicans made a good decision condemning Wilson's outbursts. If they can start to jettison the other extremists in their party - the liars, the birthers, the "death panel" scaremongers - they may even have a fighting chance during the next election.