I Suppose We Should Thank Joe Wilson

[kallend 2,131]

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Ya, while it was in poor taste and judgment you seem to be demonstrating the same thoughts


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/10/flashback_democrats_boo_bush_at_2005_state_of_the_union.html

And then there is this

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/02/obama-accused-clinton-telling-bald-faced-lies/

And, to be clear, Wilso IS telling the truth calling Obama a liar.

while it may not specificaly spell out the coverage for them the no enforcement policy he has pushed effectively does the same thing.

I think we should thank you

Both the House and Senate health care bills as they are now drafted would make illegal aliens ineligible for federally funded health care.

And that IS that.

I need the rolling eyes to reply to you but, since there is not one here I will laugh

When you've finished your conniption, please point to the section of the legislation that specifies that people here illegally will be covered.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,095]

>CNN and "truth" in the same sentence should have made out computer explode

I knew you'd attack the source and ignore the facts, so I included that report from a conservative news service that said exactly the same thing.

[quade 4]

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When you've finished your conniption, please point to the section of the legislation that specifies that people here illegally will be covered.

Please, he's asking you to prove a negative. We'll have no "reasonable" discussion as long as you can't prove something doesn't exist!

Now, while you're at it, please prove the following also don't exist;
UFOs
Bigfoot
Loch Ness Monster

See! You can't! Man, you just can't do anything can you?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Channman 2]

> The verdict:

False. A new report finds the bill could require illegal immigrants to buy coverage, but it clearly restricts subsidies to U.S. citizens and legal residents.

Really, then maybe you could give us all the section in HR 3200 as stated in CNN's new report which states illegal immigrants COULD BE REQUIRED to buy coverage and restricts subsidies to only U.S. citizens and legal residents.

[rushmc 23]

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>CNN and "truth" in the same sentence should have made out computer explode

I knew you'd attack the source and ignore the facts, so I included that report from a conservative news service that said exactly the same thing.

The fact remains that amendments were offered and voted down. Lawrockets explination also show Obama and the Dems claims to be false so, regardless of your "sources" there are "facts" that made you look to be in error

but, CCN and BBC being the true sources they are "to you anyway" I would expect you to buy the bias

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,095]

>As for Joe Wilson's chances for re-election I think he will do just fine.

======================
Washington Wire
Joe Wilson’s ‘You Lie!’ Provides Fund-Raising Boon for Opponent

Proof that one man’s loss is another man’s gain: in the hours following South Carolina’s GOP Rep. Joe Wilson’s “You lie!” outburst during President Barack Obama’s joint address to Congress Wednesday evening, his 2010 Democratic opponent has raised about $100,000 from 3,000 people, according to a spokeswoman for the House Democrats’ campaign operation.

. . .

UPDATE 11:25 a.m.: Miller’s fund-raising keeps climbing. A spokeswoman for the House Democrats’ campaign says he has now received more than 5,000 individual grassroots contributions raising more than $200,000. This is a notable sum. According to Wilson’s most recent filings with the Federal Election Commission, he had $211,000 cash on hand through the end of July, while Miller had reported just under $50,000.
===============

>And to think for the last few hours I was thinking Wison was a Hero

=================
Can Republicans Escape Their Extremists?
Posted on Aug 3, 2009

By E.J. Dionne

Things are looking up for the Republicans, relatively speaking. President Obama’s poll numbers have dipped, GOP recruitment for the 2010 elections is going better than expected, and the heath care battle has been rough on the Democrats.

On top of that, the surveys show Republicans now leading in this year’s two major governor’s races, in Virginia and New Jersey.

There’s just one problem: The country still doesn’t like Republicans.

A Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll last week captured the public’s mixed verdict. The headlines focused on growing doubts about Obama’s health care plan and the drop in his approval rating, from 60 percent in February to 53 percent now.

But the same poll found that while Democrats as a party had a net positive rating of five points (42 percent positive to 37 percent negative), the GOP faced a 13-point deficit. Only 28 percent rated the Republicans positively; 41 percent rated them negatively.

Perhaps this has something to do with how few positive things Republicans have to say. As a result, the party is being defined by extremist voices who have faced little push-back from its leaders.

The extremists include the “birthers” who, against all evidence, insist that Obama was not born in the United States and thus ineligible to be president. These guys are so out there that party leaders and conservative commentators have started to disown them.

Race-baiting is no longer off-limits on some of the right-wing talk shows. Fox News’ Glenn Beck, for example, declared that Obama “has a deep-seated hatred for white people or the white culture.”

Ethnicity has been an underlying issue in the debate around Judge Sonia Sotomayor’s Supreme Court nomination. Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee questioned whether she would be fair by repeatedly referring to her comment—from which she backed away—about the relative wisdom of a “wise Latina.”

Rush Limbaugh was far less subtle when her comment first surfaced. “How do you get promoted in a Barack Obama administration?” he asked. “By hating white people—or even saying you do, or that they’re not good or put ’em down, whatever.”

Some in the party are also entering never-never land in their attacks on the Democrats’ health care proposals. Last week, for example, Rep. Virginia Foxx, R-N.C., claimed that the Republican approach to health care would be more pro-life because it “will not put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government.”

Foxx’s ludicrous notion—taking off in the right-wing blogosphere—is that Section 1233 of the House health bill is an invitation to euthanasia.

It’s nothing of the sort. It simply provides Medicare funding so seniors with life-threatening diseases can consult their doctors on advanced care and be given “an explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.”

The harshness of the rhetorical salvos is feeding worries among some Republicans that the GOP is increasingly perceived as a right-wing, Southern regional party.

Sen. George Voinovich of Ohio brought those concerns to the surface in an interview with The Columbus Dispatch in which he spoke of the role played by Sens. Jim DeMint of South Carolina and Tom Coburn of Oklahoma.

“We got too many Jim DeMints and Tom Coburns,” said Voinovich, who is retiring next year. “It’s the Southerners.” He added: “People hear them and say, ‘These people, they’re Southerners. The party’s being taken over by Southerners.’ ”

Sen. David Vitter of Louisiana shot back, calling Voinovich “a moderate, really wishy-washy” in an interview with The Washington Times. But Vitter offered indirect support for Voinovich’s claim when he said: “I’m on the side of conservatives getting back to core conservative values. There are a lot of us from the South who hold those value(s), which I think the party is supposed to be about.”

In the short term, these tussles and rumblings may not matter much. The country is focused on judging what the Democrats are doing with the power they hold. The path politics will take depends largely on the outcome of the health care battle and the direction of the economy.

But to take advantage of the opportunities that might come their way, Republicans will have to make themselves an acceptable alternative. They have not done this yet. Facing down extremism and breaking out of the party’s regional enclave would be good places to start.

[quade 4]

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but, CCN and BBC being the true sources they are "to you anyway" I would expect you to buy the bias

Exactly what motivation would the BBC have in biasing their coverage of this? Really? You think the BBC is biased in their reporting of US domestic issues? Really?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[livendive 8]

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Under current law, undocumented immigrants are eligible for emergency medical services funded by MEDICAID!

So, what this does is absolutely nothing. Since illegal immigrants are already covered by Medicaid for emergency care, they will simply stay on Medicaid.

Gee - this is a big change, ain't it?

Big point - HR 3200 doesn't cover undocumented immigrants. Because Medicaid covers them.

Single payor, eh?

What is sounds like you just said is, “There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," is a truthful statement.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 23]

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but, CCN and BBC being the true sources they are "to you anyway" I would expect you to buy the bias

Exactly what motivation would the BBC have in biasing their coverage of this? Really? You think the BBC is biased in their reporting of US domestic issues? Really?

Nothing to do with this story but rather to the sources used in posts

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,095]

>then maybe you could give us all the section in HR 3200 as stated in
>CNN's new report which states illegal immigrants COULD BE REQUIRED to
>buy coverage and restricts subsidies to only U.S. citizens and legal
>residents.

Page 143: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

From the House website:

"Question: Do I have to buy health insurance?

Under the House bill, all individuals who can afford it have a responsibility to obtain health insurance."

[billvon 3,095]

>The fact remains that amendments were offered and voted down.

Right. And the fact remains that the bill, as it now stands, without those amendments, will not provide any government subsidies for illegal aliens.

>but, CCN and BBC being the true sources they are "to you anyway"

I didn't quote CCN or BBC, although I did quote both CNN and a conservative news service. Nice try though!

[kallend 2,131]

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but, CCN and BBC being the true sources they are "to you anyway" I would expect you to buy the bias

Exactly what motivation would the BBC have in biasing their coverage of this? Really? You think the BBC is biased in their reporting of US domestic issues? Really?

Their bias is in the reporting of Cloud Cuckoo Land, where Marc lives.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[downwardspiral 0]

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I think it is a symptom of how sharply divided we are right now in general. I mean, at every opportunity people throw out the labels as a standard part of every insult, as part of every objection, even just in passing comments.

Look at this fiasco over the Obama presentation. All he is looking to do is throw his weight and influence behind the idea that kids should get the best education they can; and people turn it into a partisan issue.

They are more concerned with image and superficial BS than fundamental principles and the common good. 'Yes, it's good to stay in school and get an education, but we don't want them to hear it from a Democrat.' What kind of lame BS is that?

So now we have to engrain partisan politics into elementary students because when they are ready to see the speech some certain group of kids will be getting up and leaving the room. Nice fucking result. And I'm guessing there will be some truly ignorant parents on both ends who will have something to say to their kids about the kids who did not do the same as their's.

Truly pathetic. Instead of emphasizing education, we are emphasizing the importance of partisan politics. I'm more worried about the legacy we are building for our kids than the miscreant behaviors of professional politicians - who are pretty much lost causes already.

I think the best thing that could happen to the average politician would be to have a near death experience that results in some sort of epiphany that causes them to stop behaving like the narrow-minded self-serving assholes that they are and start behaving as if the public interest was their real job.

It's not as pathetic or paranoid as you or others may think. There was genuine and reasonable concern Obama was going to make the school speech political. Well the speech certainly wasn't but he sure couldn't pass up the opportunity to make his national healthcare sales pitch to a bunch of freshman.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-in-Discussion-with-9th-Graders-Wakefield-High-School/

Credit to 1969912 for finding the link.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[kallend 2,131]

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I think it is a symptom of how sharply divided we are right now in general. I mean, at every opportunity people throw out the labels as a standard part of every insult, as part of every objection, even just in passing comments.

Look at this fiasco over the Obama presentation. All he is looking to do is throw his weight and influence behind the idea that kids should get the best education they can; and people turn it into a partisan issue.

They are more concerned with image and superficial BS than fundamental principles and the common good. 'Yes, it's good to stay in school and get an education, but we don't want them to hear it from a Democrat.' What kind of lame BS is that?

So now we have to engrain partisan politics into elementary students because when they are ready to see the speech some certain group of kids will be getting up and leaving the room. Nice fucking result. And I'm guessing there will be some truly ignorant parents on both ends who will have something to say to their kids about the kids who did not do the same as their's.

Truly pathetic. Instead of emphasizing education, we are emphasizing the importance of partisan politics. I'm more worried about the legacy we are building for our kids than the miscreant behaviors of professional politicians - who are pretty much lost causes already.

I think the best thing that could happen to the average politician would be to have a near death experience that results in some sort of epiphany that causes them to stop behaving like the narrow-minded self-serving assholes that they are and start behaving as if the public interest was their real job.

It's not as pathetic or paranoid as you or others may think. There was genuine and reasonable concern Obama was going to make the school speech political. Well the speech certainly wasn't but he sure couldn't pass up the opportunity to make his national healthcare sales pitch to a bunch of freshman.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-in-Discussion-with-9th-Graders-Wakefield-High-School/

Credit to 1969912 for finding the link.

How would YOU have answered the kid's question? Told the kid he was out of line for asking that question?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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but this is not something provided by the bill.

Right. Because there is already a de facto system of healthcare that is "free" to the end-user set up. This is a primary reason why there are 30 hour waits at many county hospitals in Cali - the ER is "free" and paid for by others, increasing the costs on those who use it and pay for it.

Thus, a primary problem is not being fixed. A system that requires all to pay their own way - except those that we put on Medicaid - isn't the fix it is being played to be.

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The most important thing the bill does is to ensure that those who have income, but prefer not to buy health insurance, would be forced to buy it, and will not go uninsured.

Right - because those are the people that need to pay into the system to cover everybody else. The 20-40 demographic is highly treasured because they are the low actuarial risks who can pool their resources with the higher risks. It's why employee group plans are cheap - because the employee group plans generally have healthier people on them.

The government wants these people and can actually force them into paying up, which the insurance industry cannot do! Because of socialism, these people who chose not to pay end up being a drain on society.

The government sees, "These people have the resources to cover other drains on society. We can't have them getting off for free. We'll make them pay."

I see it. I see the reasons. I think responsibility is a great thing. The government wants to force people to be responsible - responsible to the government and not themselves. Tha way, the government can be responsible for others.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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What is sounds like you just said is, “There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," is a truthful statement.

Yep. That's the truth. Not the whole truth. But the truth.

No, the plans have zero intentions of insuring illegal immigrants. Insurance is the wrong word. They plan on sending them to a separate "indemnity" plan outside of this system.

Edited to add: AND - it means that those who claim that the new plan will insure illegals is false, too.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[georgerussia 0]

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Really, then maybe you could give us all the section in HR 3200 as stated in CNN's new report which states illegal immigrants COULD BE REQUIRED to buy coverage and restricts subsidies to only U.S. citizens and legal residents.

Basically the bill requires everyone who receives taxable income in U.S. and is subject to federal taxation to either have health insurance, or pay a "tax" fine. This includes illegal immigrants as well, if they pay taxes (and some do).

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[turtlespeed 226]

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When are y'all going to show that coverage is not provided? The section you quoted was about a subsidy, not coverage.

They will be able get coverage by paying a full price (without government subsidy), or pay cash for services as they can do right now. Why wouldn't you provide coverage for those who paid for it?

No. They will get coverage the same way they have for the last 20 years - go to an emergency room and have Medicaid pay for it.

Shipping folks off to Medicaid is explicit in the bill. This is how HR 3200 will make it affordable - by taking only people who can pay (and subsidizing those who can pay most of it) while sending everyone else to Medicaid, which will increase its rolls.

This bill limits its eligibility to ensure that its costs can be kept under a trillion. It ships the big costs off to Medicaid and Medicare, which covers the people who need it right now, anyway.

So it does nothing except kill private health insurance. Even the President is making sure he limits his promises about being able to keep our insurance if we like it.

Ok, so, in the context you post to here, how do they square the fact that they say they will take (or be able to take) 500 million or billion (cant remember which) from Medicare?

Fuzzy math?

If it isn't presented in the bill how can it exist to be counted?

But if you cannot use immigration status in court, how can you enforce your own rules?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 23]

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When are y'all going to show that coverage is not provided? The section you quoted was about a subsidy, not coverage.

They will be able get coverage by paying a full price (without government subsidy), or pay cash for services as they can do right now. Why wouldn't you provide coverage for those who paid for it?

No. They will get coverage the same way they have for the last 20 years - go to an emergency room and have Medicaid pay for it.

Shipping folks off to Medicaid is explicit in the bill. This is how HR 3200 will make it affordable - by taking only people who can pay (and subsidizing those who can pay most of it) while sending everyone else to Medicaid, which will increase its rolls.

This bill limits its eligibility to ensure that its costs can be kept under a trillion. It ships the big costs off to Medicaid and Medicare, which covers the people who need it right now, anyway.

So it does nothing except kill private health insurance. Even the President is making sure he limits his promises about being able to keep our insurance if we like it.

Ok, so, in the context you post to here, how do they square the fact that they say they will take (or be able to take) 500 million or billion (cant remember which) from Medicare?

Fuzzy math?

If it isn't presented in the bill how can it exist to be counted?

But if you cannot use immigration status in court, how can you enforce your own rules?

the other thing is the Senage is working on something but does not yet have a complete bill. Obama does not have a damed thing and did not give much for specifics in his "address"!!. So we really do not have any idea what HE is talking about. And I am not sure hed does either

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[georgerussia 0]

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Right. Because there is already a de facto system of healthcare that is "free" to the end-user set up. This is a primary reason why there are 30 hour waits at many county hospitals in Cali - the ER is "free" and paid for by others, increasing the costs on those who use it and pay for it.

The largest estimates I've seen claim that 50% of non-payers in local ERs are illegal immigrants, so at worst the bill would reduce it twice - by ensuring that the rest of the population would have insurance (paid for them or paid by taxpayers), and the hospitals and ERs will get paid. Once people have insurance, there is less reason for them to go to ER and wait 30 hours - when they could go to urgent care clinic and want 2 hours. So, at the end, there will be less freeloaders in ERs.

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Thus, a primary problem is not being fixed. A system that requires all to pay their own way - except those that we put on Medicaid - isn't the fix it is being played to be.

The bill indeed is not trying to address the problem of providing service to illegal immigrants - but so far I haven't seen any reasonable proposal myself which would have any chance to pass, and would actually work. The main goal of the bill is to force those who can afford to pay for insurance to pay for it instead of paying for a new rig and claiming they cannot afford it now.

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I see it. I see the reasons. I think responsibility is a great thing. The government wants to force people to be responsible - responsible to the government and not themselves. Tha way, the government can be responsible for others.

And I agree with you. I see the problem here as well. But what else you can do? Even here there are quite a few people who consider it fine that they are skydiving (i.e. have money to pay for jumps, reserve repacks, new rig, travel to boogies etc), and buying alcohol, but somehow they're too poor to afford cheap high-deductible insurance.

Of course it would be much better if everyone would be responsible. We'd have much less laws here. But unfortunately it doesn't work anywhere. I do not know what numbers were in US, but in Russia only 3% of the drivers had the liability insurance until it became the law.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[rushmc 23]

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What is sounds like you just said is, “There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally," is a truthful statement.

Yep. That's the truth. Not the whole truth. But the truth.

No, the plans have zero intentions of insuring illegal immigrants. Insurance is the wrong word. They plan on sending them to a separate "indemnity" plan outside of this system.

Edited to add: AND - it means that those who claim that the new plan will insure illegals is false, too.

No insurance but a governement run health program, like a medicare?

Got to admit they are good trying to hide the devil in detail. Cant come out and say anything straight forward

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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>The fact remains that amendments were offered and voted down.

Right. And the fact remains that the bill, as it now stands, without those amendments, will not provide any government subsidies for illegal aliens.

>but, CCN and BBC being the true sources they are "to you anyway"

I didn't quote CCN or BBC, although I did quote both CNN and a conservative news service. Nice try though!

I did not say you quoted BBC. I DID point out sites you view as credible however. I did not respond directly to CCN until the second post following. Nice try though.

You seem to like those gov subsidized and gov supporting sites. That is the point in case you missed it.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 226]

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No insurance but a governement run health program, like a medicare?

Got to admit they are good trying to hide the devil in detail. Cant come out and say anything straight forward

What do you expect from people that are subsidized by lawyers?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rushmc 23]

Their bias is in the reporting of Cloud Cuckoo Land, where Marc lives.

Well we now know that the land of Cloud Cuckoo is closer to reality than where ever it is the hell you hang out

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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No insurance but a governement run health program, like a medicare?

Got to admit they are good trying to hide the devil in detail. Cant come out and say anything straight forward

What do you expect from people that are subsidized by lawyers?

that point is sharp!!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln