Remember the Gilded Age: A Progressive Morality Play

[dreamdancer 0]

and this shall be known as the double-sized with xtra large fries gilded age...

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History never truly repeats itself, but there are stunning parallels between the socio-economic and political history of the United States in the last decade of the 19th century and the past two decades.

In the United States, the end of the 19th century was known as the Gilded Age. In the era before income taxes, the welfare state and government regulation, powerful men such as banker J. P. Morgan, mining magnate Meyer Guggenheim, Standard Oil billionaire John D. Rockefeller and railway entrepreneur E. H. Harriman built massive industrial empires and monopolies and lived fabulously extravagant lives.

This was the high point of what American economist Thorstein Veblen called "conspicuous consumption," which coincided with a besieged working class, a shrinking middle class, diminishing agricultural income and rampant political corruption in city, state and national government. It erupted in a sudden and significant banking crisis right after the turn of the 20th century, a crisis in which Morgan himself used his great wealth and power to essentially save the U.S. banking system at Washington's behest. (There was no Federal Reserve at the time.)

The decline of public morality and the rise of avaricious, concentrated wealth endangered capitalism and prompted a growing movement of "progressives" - people who believed, first, that government had to be cleaned up, and second, that incorruptible government at all levels was the only power great enough to bring American capitalism and democracy back into balance.

A host of new reformist political leaders, from the Far West to the Midwest to the Eastern Seaboard, led farmer, labour, middle-class and social-gospel movements to break monopolies, clean up government, establish child and female labour laws, campaign for female suffrage and use the power of government to fight the worst abuses of unbridled capitalism.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/08/01-5

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[lawrocket 3]

It seems thàt you have missed the irony of "progressive.". It turns out, progressives didn't do shit, except entrench the federal government as the monopolist robber baron.

Progress? According to this article it aint happened. 100 years of progress hasn't done shit except tear tear some people down.

Too bad nobody has enough money to bail out the feds this time, eh?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,151]

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It seems thàt you have missed the irony of "progressive.". It turns out, progressives didn't do shit, except entrench the federal government as the monopolist robber baron.

Progress? According to this article it aint happened. 100 years of progress hasn't done shit except tear tear some people down.

Too bad nobody has enough money to bail out the feds this time, eh?

It was the BANKS that needed bailing out more than the govt.

I don't recall Morgan, Harriman, Rockefeller, Guggenheim et al. paying themselves huge bonuses with taxpayer $$.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

Nor do I. Such would have been laughable until progressives had their way.

"Yo homebody!"
"What?!"
"Yo homeboy?!"
"What?!"
"Who has mo' money than they know what to do wit'?"
"I don't know!"
"That's right. De gub-ment."
"But how can I use dis knowledge to work for me?"

The market cap of Exxon Mobil is about $500 billion. Compare that to the government - whose bailout package alone was about $800 billion.

When power is so heavily centralized, kallend, what do you expect? Progress has led to the govt being the source of the greatest possible profits. All you need is Chris Dodd.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,151]

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Nor do I. Such would have been laughable until progressives had their way.

"Yo homebody!"
"What?!"
"Yo homeboy?!"
"What?!"
"Who has mo' money than they know what to do wit'?"
"I don't know!"
"That's right. De gub-ment."
"But how can I use dis knowledge to work for me?"

The market cap of Exxon Mobil is about $500 billion. Compare that to the government - whose bailout package alone was about $800 billion.

When power is so heavily centralized, kallend, what do you expect? Progress has led to the govt being the source of the greatest possible profits. All you need is Chris Dodd Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TomAiello 26]

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All you need is Chris Dodd Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke.

Oooh, the blame game.

It's just another way of saying "I don't give a rip if we're in trouble--just as long as I can point the finger at someone else."

Here's a revolutionary idea. Let's stop pointing fingers across the aisle and start trying to solve the problem.

Nah...that would never fly in DC.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kallend 2,151]

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All you need is Chris Dodd Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke.

Oooh, the blame game.

It's just another way of saying "I don't give a rip if we're in trouble--just as long as I can point the finger at someone else."

Here's a revolutionary idea. Let's stop pointing fingers across the aisle and start trying to solve the problem.

Nah...that would never fly in DC.

Well, supporting Ron Paul isn't going to get you (us) anywhere.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

If I recall, Congress specifically authorized Bernanke to do it. In fact, Dodd wrote it in.

Sure, Bernanke shouldn't have gotten drunk and crashed the car. Nor should Congress have given him the liquor and the car keyes.

There is plenty of blame to go around. And it it definitely easier to blame the Fed. Once again, to blame an agency rather to the exclusion of Congress (which created, regulated, funded, empowered and oversaw the agency) is disingenuous.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,151]

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There is plenty of blame to go around. .

So why did you blame just one person?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

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There is plenty of blame to go around. .

So why did you blame just one person?

Because I think the guy who actually thought up the bailout bonuses you decry is a good place to start. Then we can blame subcommittee and committee for passing it. Then full house and senate, POTUS for signing it. Then Bernanke.

Dodd is handy because he spoke out against that which he specifically wrote. Even Yoda said, "The easiest target Chris Dodd is."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[TomAiello 26]

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Well, supporting Ron Paul isn't going to get you (us) anywhere.

Hoo-rah! More finger pointing!

Wouldn't want to actually start digging out of this whole we're in, would we? What would be the point of that when we can just keep blaming someone else while we're all digging ourselves in deeper?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[lawrocket 3]

You know, Tom, I truly think that we need a POTUS who will commit political suicide, be voted out after one term, and be thought of as great in 20 years. One of those guys who would say, "yes, I cut the budget 20% last year for everything but debt repayment, which I increased. That's why no tax cut - I'm in favor of lower taxes and lower spending. I'm also in favor of debt reduction. So I want that reduced.

"And some warm applause for Congress, who actually did it."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[StreetScooby 5]

+1

We are all engines of karma

[TomAiello 26]

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You know, Tom, I truly think that we need a POTUS who will commit political suicide, be voted out after one term, and be thought of as great in 20 years.

I wonder how long until we get to the point where you couldn't mathematically do that in one 4 year term?

In theory, even with a 100% budget cut, and 100% taxes, you'd only have the GDP to use. At what point will total debt exceed 4 times the GDP?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[lawrocket 3]

It won't get that far because nobody will lend to us to that point.

It's why phasing in cuts in everything but the debt servicing would have to be the way. We borrow no more, pay less and use the balance to pay off debt. It's like cutting out on travel, beer, dining out, etc., and putting the extra money toward the mortgage principal.

This not only lowers debt but saves interest payment. It also provides liquidity to the bondholders who will invest in other things.

The more I think about it the more I've come to believe that the government can increase liquidity (and thus the economy) humming by merely removing its sagging influence. The money can be used or invested in other ways.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 23]

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It won't get that far because nobody will lend to us to that point.

It's why phasing in cuts in everything but the debt servicing would have to be the way. We borrow no more, pay less and use the balance to pay off debt. It's like cutting out on travel, beer, dining out, etc., and putting the extra money toward the mortgage principal.

This not only lowers debt but saves interest payment. It also provides liquidity to the bondholders who will invest in other things.

The more I think about it the more I've come to believe that the government can increase liquidity (and thus the economy) humming by merely removing its sagging influence. The money can be used or invested in other ways.

And how we going to stop it (them). As you have stated many times this is not party issues. Both sides are playing this game. Congress should not have sent the spending bills it did the POTUS and therefore he could not have signed it. Same should be happening now but no, tax cheat Geithner is now saying "we have to tax the middle class". Well we can welcome years of ression if he gets it done.

Congress started this mess when Carter was in office. Clinton doubled down on it and now its Bush's fault??? Like you, I dont get it.

Congress creates the mess's, makes somebody else the fall guy/villion and then fixs (makes another mess) yet again.


I cant type here what I may be thinking.....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,151]

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If I recall, Congress specifically authorized Bernanke to do it. In fact, Dodd wrote it in.

Sure, Bernanke shouldn't have gotten drunk and crashed the car. Nor should Congress have given him the liquor and the car keyes.

There is plenty of blame to go around. And it it definitely easier to blame the Fed. Once again, to blame an agency rather to the exclusion of Congress (which created, regulated, funded, empowered and oversaw the agency) is disingenuous.

There are a lot of people in Congress besides Dodd. Once again, if you think there is plenty of blame to go around, why pick on just one person, especially when he wasn't even the trigger-man?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

John:

I told you that I used Dodd as an example because he was easily the most vocal about how terrible the bonuses were.

I pick on Dodd because he set himself up. He said it was wrong. But - he was the triggerman. It was his idea. He submitted the language.

Perhaps you missed me prior explanation. So I give it to you again. Dodd wrote it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[TomAiello 26]

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Congress started this mess when Carter was in office. Clinton doubled down on it and now its Bush's fault???

To be fair, the real explosion occurred under Reagan and a Democratic Congress.

The only real episode of fiscal responsibility (well, not really, but at least borrowing money slower) came under Clinton, with a Republican Congress (the "Contract with America" bunch). That was a reflection of both the president (Clinton really was interested in fiscal realities) and the Congress (more deficit hawks in the Congressional leadership than at any other time).

A large part of the current debt is W. Bush's fault. It was during the Bush administration that (a) we launched two wars on borrowed money and (b) he missed a golden opportunity to clean up, because he had a strong position in Congress, and could have pushed for it successfully.

That doesn't mean that Obama isn't expanding the debt at an unprecedented rate. His proposed (and already done) spending makes Bush look almost responsible by comparison, which, given that the past 8 years were by far the most free spending in history, is really something.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rushmc 23]

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Congress started this mess when Carter was in office. Clinton doubled down on it and now its Bush's fault???

To be fair, the real explosion occurred under Reagan and a Democratic Congress.

The only real episode of fiscal responsibility (well, not really, but at least borrowing money slower) came under Clinton, with a Republican Congress (the "Contract with America" bunch). That was a reflection of both the president (Clinton really was interested in fiscal realities) and the Congress (more deficit hawks in the Congressional leadership than at any other time).

A large part of the current debt is W. Bush's fault. It was during the Bush administration that (a) we launched two wars on borrowed money and (b) he missed a golden opportunity to clean up, because he had a strong position in Congress, and could have pushed for it successfully.

That doesn't mean that Obama isn't expanding the debt at an unprecedented rate. His proposed (and already done) spending makes Bush look almost responsible by comparison, which, given that the past 8 years were by far the most free spending in history, is really something.

I agree with nearly all of this. I was however refering to what I call the trigger. The trigger that started all of this was the fair housing push during Carter and was expanded under Clinton.

Bush want Fannie and Freddie audited and more regs put on them but Dodd and Feinstien said there was/is nothing wrong (2003)

As for Clinton and the debt, that was the only time in recent memory the R's actually acted fiscally responcible and pushed a budget Clinton had to accept.

Some the same situation with Reagan. Remembers Tip's comments about one of the Reagon budger proposals "DOA" is what he said before he even saw it.

There sure screwed the pooch under Bush however. I

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln