kallend 2,230 #1 July 30, 2009 money.cnn.com/2009/07/30/news/companies/bonuses_tarp/?postversion=2009073012... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #2 July 30, 2009 Quotemoney.cnn.com/2009/07/30/news/companies/bonuses_tarp/?postversion=2009073012 Of course Mr Lott... ..... ah kallend. You might want to look and see WHO made the largest donations to the Obama camp and have promised to support ACORN and that Americorp crap. Might shed some light on why? shakes head and walks away......"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #3 July 30, 2009 Hey, I've got a great idea! Let's reward those guys by giving them Billions of taxpayer dollars. That way, they can pay themselves even bigger bonuses next year!-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,230 #4 July 30, 2009 QuoteHey, I've got a great idea! Let's reward those guys by giving them Billions of taxpayer dollars. That way, they can pay themselves even bigger bonuses next year! Funny how capitalism works, isn't it?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #5 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteHey, I've got a great idea! Let's reward those guys by giving them Billions of taxpayer dollars. That way, they can pay themselves even bigger bonuses next year! Funny how capitalism works, isn't it? That's not capitalism. It's abuse of government power.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,230 #6 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteHey, I've got a great idea! Let's reward those guys by giving them Billions of taxpayer dollars. That way, they can pay themselves even bigger bonuses next year! Funny how capitalism works, isn't it? That's not capitalism. It's abuse of government power. The decision to pay obscene bonuses was not made by the government to the best of my knowledge.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #7 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHey, I've got a great idea! Let's reward those guys by giving them Billions of taxpayer dollars. That way, they can pay themselves even bigger bonuses next year! Funny how capitalism works, isn't it? That's not capitalism. It's abuse of government power. The decision to pay obscene bonuses was not made by the government to the best of my knowledge. The decision to provide billions to do it again was, though. When the (bad) decision to pay those bonuses was made, the market was all set to clobber those banks and force them out of business. Given their records of fiscal irresponsibility, that seems like a good idea. But wait, here comes the government, ready to overrule the market with billions in handouts...-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #8 July 30, 2009 Taking the Devil's advocate position here; On the other hand Tom, have you looked at the stock market lately? http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/30/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?postversion=2009073011 Something seems to be working with the bailouts and stimulus.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #9 July 30, 2009 Oh my gosh, you mean that if you hand out billions of taxpayer dollars to your pals on wall street, the stock market goes up? Shocking! Such a revelation! I never would have imagined it, not in a million years!-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #10 July 30, 2009 Hey, all I'm saying is that it's better today than it was nine months ago when Bush 43 was in office. I'll even credit GWB for handing out the biggest lump of cash to HIS friends. That's not my point. My point is that at least it seems to actually be getting better now and it's entirely possible that whatever machinations behind the scenes we -may- just pull out of this rather than be as totally fucked over as it was looking like we would be. Sure, you, me and the 95% are still going to get fucked. I agree. But, maybe we'll survive the anal rape to see another day.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #11 July 30, 2009 Quote In Reply To In Reply To In Reply To In Reply To Hey, I've got a great idea! Let's reward those guys by giving them Billions of taxpayer dollars. That way, they can pay themselves even bigger bonuses next year! Funny how capitalism works, isn't it? That's not capitalism. It's abuse of government power. The decision to pay obscene bonuses was not made by the government to the best of my knowledge. The decision to provide billions to do it again was, though. When the (bad) decision to pay those bonuses was made, the market was all set to clobber those banks and force them out of business. Given their records of fiscal irresponsibility, that seems like a good idea. But wait, here comes the government, ready to overrule the market with billions in handouts... DING! DING! DING! I think we have a winner...We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #12 July 30, 2009 Quote Hey, all I'm saying is that it's better today than it was nine months ago when Bush 43 was in office. How so? Quote ...and it's entirely possible that whatever machinations behind the scenes... That's a problem at this point in time with our elected officials. And it needs to stop. Completely unacceptable.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #13 July 30, 2009 QuoteQuote Hey, all I'm saying is that it's better today than it was nine months ago when Bush 43 was in office. How so? Market closed today at a nine month high and has pretty much been on a steady rise since the beginning of the month. While not a perfect metric, it is a standard one that a lot of folks seem to use because it's 100% verifiable. It's not mystical crystal ball mumbo-jumbo and you can actually see it. QuoteThat's a problem at this point in time with our elected officials. And it needs to stop. Completely unacceptable. While I agree that should be the goal, you have to be realistic enough to understand it will continue for quite some time. Things like THAT certainly don't change over night. Many Presidents have come and gone without even attempting to touch it and in fact the golden boy of the Republican party, Reagan, only made things worse through deregulation.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamLanes 1 #14 July 31, 2009 Don't let yourself be fooled by all the smoke and mirrors Quade. The laws of supply and demand can not be broken. Prices are determined not only by the supply and demand of the goods and services, but also the supply and demand of the money. When the money supply is increased, it always has upward pressure on the prices of everything. The history and future of all fiat money is hyperinflation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamLanes 1 #15 July 31, 2009 I wish capitalism existed in the financial sector of the United States, or any sector for that matter. Fundamentally capitalism does not, and can not coexist with fiat money. The Federal Reserve Bank is the antithesis of capitalism, and your freedom, wealth, and future, will be destroyed through it. "The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. " -Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #16 July 31, 2009 QuoteThe laws of supply and demand can not be broken. Yes they can. QuoteWhen the money supply is increased, it always has upward pressure on the prices of everything. Except in this time where nobody is buying stuff. Cost is still low. When talking about supply or demand, there are other things here that can make assumptions false._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamLanes 1 #17 July 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe laws of supply and demand can not be broken. Yes they can. How? Prove it! QuoteQuoteWhen the money supply is increased, it always has upward pressure on the prices of everything. Except in this time where nobody is buying stuff. Cost is still low. When talking about supply or demand, there are other things here that can make assumptions false. What are you talking about? I hope you can back up your statements using logic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #18 July 31, 2009 QuoteI wish capitalism existed in the financial sector of the United States, or any sector for that matter. Fundamentally capitalism does not, and can not coexist with fiat money. The Federal Reserve Bank is the antithesis of capitalism, and your freedom, wealth, and future, will be destroyed through it. "The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered. " -Thomas Jefferson This is a false quote. The phrases "inflation" and "deflation" did not come about till way after his death. "Deflation" is a 1900's term. Besides, this was a period around the Revolutionary War._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamLanes 1 #19 July 31, 2009 So I just checked the "Jefferson" quote, and it seems you are correct that it is a false quote. Good to know, thanks. The quote however is inconsequential to the discussion at hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #20 July 31, 2009 QuoteHow? Prove it! Just did. There's more money released; no hyperinflation. QuoteWhat are you talking about? I hope you can back up your statements using logic. The fed has been pumping money into the economy since the middle of last year. the supply of money did not increase the costs of much of anything at all. Things still cost the same now. If anything, it's cheaper. I had to lower my rent to future tenants by $100 this past month, for instance. We do not have your hyperinflation because no one is using money. This is easily checked just by watching the News and various websites. If you can manipulate supply and manipulate demand, you can change the "logical" outcome of a enonomic probability. There is no "always upper pressure. . ." Most of the time, when the Fed throws money into the economy, it does not cause inflation: During health periods, as well as down times, the Fed does this, and they also take the money back out._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamLanes 1 #21 July 31, 2009 QuoteIf you can manipulate supply and manipulate demand, you can change the "logical" outcome of a enonomic probability. And if frogs had wings... Show me how its done (other than through fraud). I really want to know if I'm wrong, but I won't give in to bullying. I originally stated that there are four things that determine prices. The truth is that prices recently would have fallen much lower without all the money the Fed has been pumping into the economy. Quantitative easing (aka printing money) is one of the tactics being used to prop up housing prices. So yes, an increase in the money supply does always cause upward pressure on prices. When there is an increase in the amount of money chasing a certain number of goods and services, prices will rise to reach equilibrium. It is the reason why printing money will not lead to prosperity, except for the people that get to spend the new money first (at the expense of everyone else!) QuoteMost of the time, when the Fed throws money into the economy, it does not cause inflation The definition of "inflation" is an increase in the money supply. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #22 July 31, 2009 Quote Show me how its done The FED does this all the time. They manipulate the M1 supply. This is intentional and one of the biggest reasons for its existance. Understand that the whole purpose of money is to be an instrument of trade; not something to consider as an asset. What you gain by its use should be considered the asset, or loss. The FED buys/sells bonds to take the money out/"print money" which manipulates the amount of cash floating around the economy. This keeps the trade value as close as possible. Of course this is a huge guessing game of when to pull or print(This is by far the biggest amount of work and time spent with the eggheads). For instance: If the fed pulls too late here in the next several months or year, we will end up in an Inflationary period. Pull too early, they will prevent enough recovery. This is example of Supply manipulation. Demand manipulaton: Intentionally holding a product from release to drive up price. Example Cartels, bid rigging, price fixing. Ogliopoly and their game theories that make demand curve kinks. (not neccessarily an intentional form of manipulation, but throws out simple rules of demand side economics) Quote The truth is that prices recently would have fallen much lower without all the money the Fed has been pumping into the economy. True, but. But this does not in itself will not alway cause your hyperinflation, it prevents deflation. Quote Quantitative easing (aka printing money) is one of the tactics being used to prop up housing prices. How about propping up amount of money to be used in the economy. Housing prices are a product of Demand. The problem here is you are using a Supply side argument (money supply) to explain a Demand side purpose(Housing pricing). Do not get crossed here. Supply is not the opposite of Demand. They are not related. They are compared only when they are graphed together to figure out economic equalibrium. (My economics professor used to throw stuff at us for making this mistake.). Quote So yes, an increase in the money supply does always cause upward pressure on prices. Only if the FED reacts in time. And again, does not mean inflation. People have to use the money in the first place. Outside influence may prevent that, like in today's instance, unwillingness to spend. Quote It is the reason why printing money will not lead to prosperity, Printing money happens all the time. It's a dynamic cycle of the FED. This chart attached, though simple, will demonstrate: Upward moving of the line represents the FED printing money. downward movement represents the FED pulling it back. At the end, you will notice the dramatic increase of the M1. Despite that we are not in an inflationary positon. As I said, If the FED pulls at the right time, we will miss the Inflation. Quote except for the people that get to spend the new money first (at the expense of everyone else!) If you are not the first, you are probably in the group that own bad debt in the first place. Quote The definition of "inflation" is an increase in the money supply. Nope. The definition of Inflation is: sustained increase of prices of goods and services. Money Supply increases faster than real output Quote but I won't give in to bullying. Well. . .that was dickheaded of me. I edited my rude comments out of my last post._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdamLanes 1 #23 July 31, 2009 Quote the whole purpose of money is to be an instrument of trade; not something to consider as an asset. Not true. The purpose of money is not only a medium of exchange, but also a store of value. You are correct that our money today is not an asset. That is because it is losing value as more of it is created. It has no real value, it is paper and ink, and now digitalized. Quote The FED does this all the time. They manipulate the M1 supply. Yes, and that is the cause of the boom-and-bust of the economy. I don't think you understand why the Federal Reserve manipulates the money supply. The main function of the Federal Reserve Bank is the transfer of wealth. Quote Supply is not the opposite of Demand. They are not related. Supply and demand not related? whatever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LyraM45 0 #24 July 31, 2009 Quote Oh my gosh, you mean that if you hand out billions of taxpayer dollars to your pals on wall street, the stock market goes up? Shocking! Such a revelation! I never would have imagined it, not in a million years! Isn't that what bush was trying to do with all the money and stimulus stuff he was dishing out before his term was done? It's the same t hing... Obama just picked it up and finished it. I didn't like it when Bush was doing it, and I wasn't a huge fan when Obama, which whom I support, picked it up and finsihed she job. Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #25 July 31, 2009 Quote Quote Oh my gosh, you mean that if you hand out billions of taxpayer dollars to your pals on wall street, the stock market goes up? Shocking! Such a revelation! I never would have imagined it, not in a million years! Isn't that what bush was trying to do with all the money and stimulus stuff he was dishing out before his term was done? It's the same t hing... Obama just picked it up and finished it. I didn't like it when Bush was doing it, and I wasn't a huge fan when Obama, which whom I support, picked it up and finsihed she job. A quick search will show you that Tom was *NOT* a fan of TARP, either, so I'm not sure where you're going with your post.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
