mnealtx 0 #26 July 27, 2009 Quote Quote Here's another, though - if healthcare *IS* a right, why isn't fed.gov arresting doctors for civil rights violations? Don't worry. I'm sure that's coming soon to a brave new world near you. Maybe *that's* why they pulled "Animal Farm" and "1984" back from everyone's Kindles... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #27 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat part of "That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." don't you understand? Where in there does it say we have to pay for others health insurance? Where does it say we have to pay for courts to provide fair trials for others? 6th Amendment.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 2 #28 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteYeah, I'm still looking in the Bill of Rights that specifically states that health care is a right... ...nope... ...nothing there. Nor will you find anything in the Constitution specifically making, for example, a universal public school education a right. Yet it is. Americans define what their rights are, and they do it in any number of ways. It is a continuous process, not a static one, dependent solely on the Constitution. Yes, the Constitution is one source of Americans' rights, but it is only one source out of many. Health care will be a right in the US when enough Americans decide that it is through the democratic process - and that includes public debate, such as off-the-wall blogs like this Forum - and it is formally codified into law. Do you have any idea what a republic is and how it works? That is what the USA is. It is a republic not a democracy and what you are saying is not the way this country was set up to operate. In fact, men like jefferson didn't want a democracy because they new if would lead to socialism. This is why the set up our government as a republic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #29 July 27, 2009 QuoteLet's say that fed.gov has decreed that bearing arms is now a human right. Now, let's say that every arms manufacturer in the country decided they didn't WANT to make arms anymore, and quit. What happened to your "right" to bear arms? How are you going to claim it when there's nobody to provide them? Arms are a COMMODITY, not a right. Actually - I would make my own.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #30 July 27, 2009 QuoteThats funny we have univeral health care in Australia.... strange people still want to become Doctors and they still earn a good living. If folk want extra coverage they can buy private health insurance. Works OK here why not over there ? If it is universal - we'll just use yours and not pay for ours.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #31 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhat part of "That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." don't you understand? Where in there does it say we have to pay for others health insurance? Where does it say we have to pay for courts to provide fair trials for others? 6th Amendment. Is that the whole - "Jury of Your Peers" thing - I can see how he might have missed that one.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #32 July 27, 2009 The Constitution sets a floor of rights that cannot be taken. If the govt wants to give the right to healthcare it can do so. The Constitution therefore would not forbid the retaking of that right. one of the fun things about this government. I don't mind the granting of additional rights, I.e., gay marriage, etc. Those things that have zero cost to others. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #33 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteyou are correct. Arms are a commodity. THE RIGHT TO BEAR arms is a right. Then doctors are a commodity. Healthcare is a right. You should have the right to see to your own health and well-being. That is a right. I am 100% in agreement with that. And it's why HMO's piss me off. Doctors provide a service. That service is a commodity.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #34 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhat part of "That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." don't you understand? Where in there does it say we have to pay for others health insurance? Where does it say we have to pay for courts to provide fair trials for others? 6th Amendment. Is that the whole - "Jury of Your Peers" thing - I can see how he might have missed that one. It's not in the Declaration of Independence so it's easy to see why he missed it. Plenty of people point to the Dec of Indep. as in some way controlling. It isn't. It is a statement of secession. More than that, it's the greatest single piece of political venting since Martin Luther! Read the thing - it's a bitching session. The Articles of Confederation became the controlling rules. It didn't work too well so the Constitution became the Rules. several times things have been added to it. The founding fathers did not have the Bill of Rights - it had to be added on later. The Federalist Papers are not controlling, though they are great for policy analysis. So, too, is the Dec of Indep a nice guide to some of the ideas upon which the country was founded - like hatred of the British and unfair taxation. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #35 July 27, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Where does it say we have to pay for courts to provide fair trials for others? 6th Amendment. Is that the whole - "Jury of Your Peers" thing - I can see how he might have missed that one. It's not in the Declaration of Independence so it's easy to see why he missed it. I see your point, but you appear to have missed mine. I was referring to him not believing that he has any peers, and everyone is so far below him that he couldn't even consider himself subject to peer review..I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #36 July 27, 2009 QuoteDo you have any idea what a republic is and how it works? That is what the USA is. It is a republic not a democracy and what you are saying is not the way this country was set up to operate. In fact, men like jefferson didn't want a democracy because they new if would lead to socialism. This is why the set up our government as a republic. +1 Rule of Law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loumeinhart 0 #37 July 27, 2009 QuoteDo you always base your behavior on the worst possible example you can find in others? I bet your mother didn't teach you that. Sorry Kellogs, mnealtx is right. Why don't you take a walk through the south side of Chicago. When you get approached for your wallet tell them "fuck off I have rights!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #38 July 27, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Yeah, I'm still looking in the Bill of Rights that specifically states that health care is a right... ...nope... ...nothing there. Nor will you find anything in the Constitution specifically making, for example, a universal public school education a right. Yet it is. Americans define what their rights are, and they do it in any number of ways. It is a continuous process, not a static one, dependent solely on the Constitution. Yes, the Constitution is one source of Americans' rights, but it is only one source out of many. Health care will be a right in the US when enough Americans decide that it is through the democratic process - and that includes public debate, such as off-the-wall blogs like this Forum - and it is formally codified into law. Do you have any idea what a republic is and how it works? That is what the USA is. It is a republic not a democracy and what you are saying is not the way this country was set up to operate. In fact, men like jefferson didn't want a democracy because they new if would lead to socialism. This is why the set up our government as a republic. You clearly have not read the language of my post clearly. That aside: Yes, having a BA in Government, a JD and having practiced Constitutional law for 25 years, I think I probably do know what those terms mean. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DiverMike 5 #39 July 27, 2009 Way to go out on a limb stating your abilities. "I think I probably . . " Isn't that a double subjunctive clause? I suspect you were being sarcastic, but I never pass up an opportunity to annoy a lawyer. For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #40 July 27, 2009 QuoteIsn't that a double subjunctive clause? That might not be entirely untrue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #41 July 27, 2009 Quote Universal Declaration on Human Rights, binding on ALL members of the United Nations - co-authored by the US delegate and voted for by the US in 1948, and approved by the General Assembly: Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to.... This of course should include illegal aliens, correct?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #42 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuote Universal Declaration on Human Rights, binding on ALL members of the United Nations - co-authored by the US delegate and voted for by the US in 1948, and approved by the General Assembly: Article 25. (1) Everyone has the right to.... This of course should include illegal aliens, correct? I have an idea. Lets go over to Kuwait and the UAE and Suadi ALL other countries, and figure what the gross amount of money that their population rich and poor produces and have their government give it to us. We'll just tax the rest of the world since their people keep illegally entering our country. How well do you thinkk that would go over. How about we just take Kellends money - leave mine alone - but if you support it, pay for it and don't try to FORCE me to do what is not in MY best interest.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #43 July 27, 2009 QuoteLet's say that fed.gov has decreed that healthcare is now a human right. Now, let's say that every doctor in the country decided they didn't WANT to be doctors anymore, and quit. What happened to your "right" to healthcare? How are you going to claim it when there's nobody to provide it? Healthcare is a COMMODITY, not a right. What is a comet crashed into America (you know, the one chuteless has been predicting) - what would happen to our health care then? We'd all be vaporized. It's a pretty stupid argument, and just as likely to happen as all doctors quitting. One of our problems is that we currently have too few doctors, not too many. Med schools effectively act as limiters on the supply of new doctors, protecting the guild of existing ones. As for the usual tangents, the BoR does not grant us gun rights. It protects the rights we already had as people. I think one can argue that health is another right we have. Free healthcare, otoh, is a different matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #44 July 27, 2009 Quote...just as likely to happen as all doctors quitting. You know a lot of doctors? I do, and whenever they gather socially, quitting medicine is one of the top conversational topics. Being a doctor is a miserable lifestyle. Do you work 11 or 12 hours a day? Plus work weekends a couple times a month? Get woken up by calls from work at 3am a couple times a week? Ever been stuck in town for 6 months because you can't find call coverage? Worked an 18 hour shift, driven 4 hours to a friends wedding, driven back and started another 18 hour shift, at the end of which you have to be on top of your game, or risk getting sued for a million bucks? The only reason people aren't bailing out right and left is that they had to take out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans, and spend 12 years of their life, getting to this (miserable) point. And now they're locked in because they need to make enough money to pay off the loans.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #45 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuote...just as likely to happen as all doctors quitting. You know a lot of doctors? I do, and whenever they gather socially, quitting medicine is one of the top conversational topics. Being a doctor is a miserable lifestyle. Do you work 11 or 12 hours a day? Plus work weekends a couple times a month? Get woken up by calls from work at 3am a couple times a week? Ever been stuck in town for 6 months because you can't find call coverage? Worked an 18 hour shift, driven 4 hours to a friends wedding, driven back and started another 18 hour shift, at the end of which you have to be on top of your game, or risk getting sued for a million bucks? The only reason people aren't bailing out right and left is that they had to take out hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans, and spend 12 years of their life, getting to this (miserable) point. And now they're locked in because they need to make enough money to pay off the loans. You forgot to mention tail malpractice coverage. But... being able to truly help someone that NEEDED that help. That's why MANY of us do it. Despite the hours, despite the call, despite the risk of lawsuit - which could take away EVERYTHING for sometimes not even a breach of standard of care, despite the demands that we obviously "deserve" to give more back to society, despite the entitled cries of "YOU NEED TO TAKE CARE OF ME!!!". . . . Helping that one person is WHY we do it. Now... if you add FURTHER government regulation and documentation and control.... Where is the tipping point? How much personal risk and sacrifice are people willing to put up with before many just step out? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #46 July 27, 2009 QuoteYou forgot to mention tail malpractice coverage. Sorry. No excuses for missing that, since for us it's been a $15k burden in our latest move.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #47 July 27, 2009 QuoteQuote...just as likely to happen as all doctors quitting. You know a lot of doctors? I do, and whenever they gather socially, quitting medicine is one of the top conversational topics. Quitting any higher stress profession is a common conversation topic. Money traders tend to even worse hours than doctors, and they don't last nearly as long before they shift to something slightly different. But that doesn't mean they all will quit at the same time, and that there aren't plenty of new ones coming in to replace them. Doctors will always be paid better than most, and that will guarantee the supply. If the pay dropped 20 or 30%, but the hours dropped as well, along with the exorbitant tuition, if there would be any change at all, other than happier lives? This would be a plausible outcome of substantially increasing the supply of doctors. Maybe it would filter out the ones that are only in it for the money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #48 July 27, 2009 By the way, although I've already noted that the rights of Americans are found in many sources, and not just the Constitution, I will point out that the very opening paragraph of the Constitution reads: QuoteWe the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. "insure domestic Tranquility", and especially "promote the general Welfare" are very broad mandates. They can be (and have been) used to justify, for example, the use of mandatory tax revenues to establish common police forces, fire departments, pothole-fillers, nation-wide air traffic control, and universal public school education - all of which, in modern times, are viewed not as privileges, but as entitlements - or, if you will, as "rights". If the Constitution can be viewed as providing broad authority to establish those public entitlements, the American people can likewise use the Constitution as the initial basis by which to deem universal health care as a public entitlement, also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #49 July 27, 2009 Quote...the hours dropped as well... Interestingly, I've talked to several physicians who think that the (fairly) recent imposition of a mandatory maximum of 80 hour work week in residency has reduced the quality of care, because they don't get as intensive of training, and also because there are less provider-hours available. Read that again--they had to force them to cut back to 80 hour work weeks. And now there are concerns that there's not enough time to do all the necessary work and training. QuoteIf the pay dropped 20 or 30%, but the hours dropped as well, along with the exorbitant tuition, if there would be any change at all, other than happier lives? It would sure screw over the people who are currently early career physicians. They made financial decisions (loans for education) based on certain expectations of future earning. Change those rules mid-stream, and you'd expect to see a lot of people declare bankruptcy--except that they can't get out of the debts, even by bankruptcy.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #50 July 27, 2009 QuoteMoney traders tend to even worse hours than doctors, and they don't last nearly as long before they shift to something slightly different. What kind of educational loans and personal time investment do those folks make to become traders? 12 years and a couple hundred thousand dollars? More? Less? Also, if you think the stresses of trading rival the stress of having someone's life literally depend on your actions, you probably shouldn't be a doctor. Most doctors take that very, very seriously, and it contributes a lot to their stress. Personally, I think it also contributes to making them good doctors. But there's a price they pay, and we're the one's who collect the benefits.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
