Health care reform is now dead

[justinb138 0]

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Once you are finished with school and spend some time in the real working world then come back here and fight this argument. Heck, you might just change how you feel about this then..

+1

[TomAiello 26]

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Rule of law is the antithesis of threat of force.

I disagree. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.

Or perhaps you're right, and it's not the threat of force, but rather it's actual exercise.

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Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
George Washington

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jcd11235 0]

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Rule of law is the antithesis of threat of force.

I disagree.

I've seen you wrong WAY too many times to be bothered by that.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[mnealtx 0]

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The only reason you have any claim at all to taxes already paid is because we have a government of the people, for the people, and by the people.

That does not make my statements false …

[justinb138 0]

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The only reason you have any claim at all to taxes already paid is because we have a government of the people, for the people, and by the people.

That does not make my statements false …

Yes, it does.

[jcd11235 0]

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Obviously, your OPINION. Show me the income tax that the bottom 40% contributed.

If that were necessary for your statements to be false, that would imply that the bottom 40% of earners have no stake in the country. The poorest US citizen has just as much stake in the entity of the United States of America as the richest citizen in the US has.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[warpedskydiver 0]

Go to a low income subsidized housing area and look around, better cars than you or I drive, inside the finest of large screen TV sets, name brand sports clothing, iPods, iPhones, Laptops, Stacks of current DVD's, an abundant supply of alcoholic beverages, drugs and in the freezer steaks and lobster.

How dare we not give these people more of our finances so that they can overcome the setbacks they encountered as slaves and illegal aliens.


Not all people in need are this way but I say we need to better ferret out those simply playing the system.

[mnealtx 0]

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Obviously, your OPINION. Show me the income tax that the bottom 40% contributed.

If that were necessary for your statements to be false, that would imply that the bottom 40% of earners have no stake in the country. The poorest US citizen has just as much stake in the entity of the United States of America as the richest citizen in the US has.

Then why do *I* (or Tom, or lawrocket) have to pay *their* share? Why don't I get a double stake?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lawrocket 3]

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Like demanding that I pay for other people to get more healthcare while I get less?

No. Like demanding you pay your taxes.

I do. And if demanded to pay more I will pay more and be mad as hell.

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Do you not acknowledge Congress' authority to raise your taxes?

So, I guesd you have given up the selfishness argument and now stick to congressional authority, which I acknowledge.

No, I still consider the Libertarian economic philosophies to be derived from selfishness and fiscal ignorance.

[d_squared431 0]

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Is it right that someone should die simply because he can't (or his insurance company won't) pay?

Is it right that someone should starve, just because they can't pay for food?

Why not address simple (and inexpensive) hunger first, before moving up to $200,000 medical procedures? How many starving children could you have fed for that $200,000? How greedy are you to take the food out of their mouths for your bone marrow transplant? Don't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

What if you were in the position of needing an expensive procedure to save your life and your health care provider said "Sorry, not covered." Would you be making the same argument?

Nope. I'd be taking out a line of credit on my home or my future earnings. Or, if I thought that wasn't worth the expense that I'd saddle my children with (if I was older, for example), I'd be having some good parties and visiting all my friends and family.

My bad, I should have made the assumption clear: the procedure and followup care you need are too expensive, even if you mortgaged your house and took out a dozen loans. There's just no way you could afford it. If you think it couldn't happen to you, you haven't been keeping track of how fast the price of health care has been skyrocketing.

Let's make it even more personal. It's not your life that's in danger but the life of your son or daughter. The only thing that stands between your child's life and death is the decision of some health insurance bureaucrat.

Under those circumstances ask yourself, should there be a right to affordable health care or not?

BTW, in case it's not clear, I'm not arguing for any particular plan. The sole question I am addressing is whether access to affordable health care should or should not be a right.

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Care to respond to the question I asked? Why is your bone marrow transplant more important than pulling thousands of children out of hunger?

Sorry I thought that was the sarcastic part, complete with Star Trek reference.

I'd they're both important, neither more important than the other. Life is important. But while I believe it's generally recognized that human beings have a right not to starve, they also have a right to affordable health care.

Now you have to remember all insurances don't cover major medical and they have a lifetime limit of 100,000-500,000 Per person/family. This varies per insured and policy. One major medical issue and that person is no longer covered. What then? I am certain the health reform is only going to cover basic care to a certain amount so we will still have to pay for more coverage. People would still be in the same situation, wouldn't they?

TPM Sister#130ONTIG#1
I love vodka.I love vodka cause it rhymes with Tuaca~LisaH
You having a clean thought is like billyvance having a clean post.iluvtofly

[kbordson 8]

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What is it that you do for a living,

Currently a student, not employed (relocating within the week), and not receiving unemployment, food stamps etc.

Outside of my military service, the only government assistance I've ever received has been the Pell grant and a single week of unemployment insurance benefits.

And what are YOU giving back to society now? How important is your major to society? Are you going to be actually MAKING something or DOING something to help society... or just working in some IT field that makes new lil computer game that doesn't help the starving or clothe the naked .... Are you a B Ark candidate?

*edit to add link

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do you have a family to support,

Nope. I have been careful and responsible to avoid bringing kids into the world before I can afford to raise them properly (and before I am comfortable with the idea of raising kids).

You've made responsible decisions... but yet you expect others to pay for those that haven't - those that might have had 5 or 6 different children by just as many different partners and have taken NO personal responsibility for those decisions. Are there any consequences for personal decisions?

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and do you pay your taxes?

Yes.

Federal Income tax? Or just the sales tax on the ciggies?

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If you don't do any of the above or maybe only 1 of those applies to you then that answers to why you are in the mind set that you are in.

I am of the mindset that I am because I have had enough mathematics, finance, accounting, actuarial science, and economics classes to be able to recognize the fiscal arguments of the economic conservative/libertarian for exactly what they are, fallacious.

Ya know... It's nice that you feel smart enough to state your opinion as fact. You've had some book learning. You is learned in finance... and those of us dumb ones (like the lawyer and doctor) just can't recognize that YOUR OPINION is fact. Check the ego and recognize that others might have other opinions and in their shoes, that opinion might be just as valid as yours is in your shoes.

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if this health reform takes place are you will to give up your jumping and or other activities you do?

??? That doesn't make sense. I already have temporarily given up skydiving because I don't have the extra disposable income nor access to appropriate healthcare. If health care reform takes place, that will remedy the second issue.

So, are we to imply here that if the government gives out healthcare, than you would start jumping again (or it would at least remove one of the issues). Let me get this straight... it's not worth it for you to jump if YOU are responsible for your fuck ups, but if society has to take care of your decisions, then you're ok with doing it.

[likearock 2]

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Let's make it even more personal. It's not your life that's in danger but the life of your son or daughter. The only thing that stands between your child's life and death is the decision of some health insurance bureaucrat.

Under those circumstances ask yourself, should there be a right to affordable health care or not?

No. There are lots of things I have no right to do, even if my life (or my child's life) is in the balance. If you offered to pay for the procedure if I killed someone else's child, would it be right for me to do that? What if I had the opportunity to embezzle the money to pay for the procedure? Would that be justified because my need was so dire?

What if the only way to save my child's life was to enslave another human being and force them to work my fields, planting cotton, that I could sell to pay for the procedure? Would that make it ok for me to enslave someone?

You realize of course, your argument is the straw man taken to the nth degree. No one is asking you to kill or embezzle to save your child. We are discussing whether access to affordable health care should be considered a right. Again, there is no advocacy for any particular policy to be implemented.

Suppose you were discussing the right to own a gun. Would it be legitimate for someone who is anti-gun rights to say you might have to kill or enslave someone to secure that right - therefore, it shouldn't be considered a right? Of course not.

The same goes with your "saving a thousand people from starvation". It's a false choice. The choice was never between feeding a thousand people and saving a life. It's a simple profit calculation made by an insurance company. I guarantee if they deny your claim, they're not going to be sending the money they saved to feed starving children.

[TomAiello 26]

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You realize of course, your argument is the straw man taken to the nth degree. No one is asking you to kill or embezzle to save your child. We are discussing whether access to affordable health care should be considered a right.

Not really. To have the government spend money, it has to get that money somewhere. It currently gets that money by confiscating the earnings of citizens (essentially forcing them to perform uncompensated labor on it's behalf). In essence, the government is taking the uncompensated labor it forces from others, and using it for your benefit (to purchase your $200k operation).

That's not very different from forcing someone to grow cotton so that you can sell it to fund your operation.

In both cases, someone is being forced to surrender the fruits of their labor to benefit another.

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The same goes with your "saving a thousand people from starvation". It's a false choice. The choice was never between feeding a thousand people and saving a life.

Not true. If our government spends the $200k on your procedure, it, by definition, does not have the $200k to spend on something else, like feeding the hungry (or the government program of your choice). Real choices have to be made about how to spend the money. Simply saying that a single human life is at stake doesn't change the choices--there may very well be human lives at stake in the other options, too.


Here's the thing. A right is something you are allowed to do for yourself. It's not something you demand from someone else.

You have a right to own a gun. You do not have a right to make the government purchase one for you.

You have a right to free speech. You do not have a right to be provided pen and paper (or television time, or a computer) to promote your views.

You have a right to freedom of the press. You do not have a right to be given a newspaper of your very own at taxpayer expense.

You have a right to contract for healthcare services. You do not have a right to have services provided to you.


A right is the freedom to do something--it's not a material good (or service) that is provided to you.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[futuredivot 0]

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Tax money is not your money. It is our money (i.e. it belongs to the collective population of the nation, state, and/or city).

Purely curiosity-I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from. What do you do for a living?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[TomAiello 26]

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Tax money is not your money. It is our money (i.e. it belongs to the collective population of the nation, state, and/or city).

Purely curiosity-I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from. What do you do for a living?

He already stated that he's currently unemployed, and a student.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[futuredivot 0]

reword

What industry were you in and at what level?

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[likearock 2]

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Here's the thing. A right is something you are allowed to do for yourself. It's not something you demand from someone else.

In reality, it's actually a little of both.

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You have a right to own a gun. You do not have a right to make the government purchase one for you.

But you also demand the opportunity to buy a gun. If guns were not available or for some reason they were incredibly expensive, that would make a mockery of the right, wouldn't it?

Same goes with health care. As you say, you have a right to contract for it, but it must be available and affordable.

[TomAiello 26]

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But you also demand the opportunity to buy a gun. If guns were not available or for some reason they were incredibly expensive, that would make a mockery of the right, wouldn't it?

If the reason that guns were so expensive was government action, then I could see the argument that the government was infringing that right. In that case, I'd want the government to stop it's interference, so that I could purchase a gun at a realistic market value

I don't, however, think that the government needs to subsidize every firearm on the market, to reduce the cost to a level that I'd view as "affordable" (to me). It seems perfectly reasonable that I'd have to pay the true cost of producing the firearm in question, should I wish to possess it.

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Same goes with health care. As you say, you have a right to contract for it, but it must be available and affordable.

Sure. And insofar as a the government is making healthcare more expensive (which it is), I'm willing to agree with you there, too. The government should not be taking action to make healthcare more expensive. It should get out of the way and allow me to purchase healthcare at a realistic market value.

And that argument does have some meat to it. Healthcare in this country is definitely made more expensive by government intervention. Every new set of regulations is that much more office work that has to be paid for out of your healthcare dollar. Some will argue that the regulations are worth the cost, and that we ought to allow them. Others (like you, I assume) will argue that affordability is everything, and that we ought to slash the bureaucracy to bring price levels down.

Unfortunately, special interests (like the insurance industry) have a powerful lobby, and will tend to push for more rules and regulations. For example, in the latest house bill, the insurance companies lobbied (successfully) for the inclusion of a clause that would require every American to purchase their products, or face punitive taxation. Now that's an effective special interest lobby. Imagine if the NRA managed to get a law passed that said every American had to purchase a firearm, or face government sanction.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[FallingOsh 0]

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That would be an impossible analysis until we have the final version of any applicable bill. Until then, all we can really do is make relevant comparisons of current, relevant private & public entities.

If it's an impossible analysis then don't cite the outcome in your argument.

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Everyone in the business can't make the same amount and call it non-profit.

Yes, they can. Being non-profit indicates that the corporation does not exist to make profits for shareholders. It does not mean that those working for the non-profit corporation do so for free.

So any corporation that isn't publicly traded is non-profit?

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True, but you're way over simplifying it to try and make a point.

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out the fallacious argument that such a large proportion of Americans are not paying taxes.

Ok. A large portion of Americans don't pay income tax. The top 1% still pays nearly 30% of federal taxes.

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How has it even begun to work as inteded?

The economy seems to have slowed/stopped its downward trend.

By what measure?

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It may not have been intended to work magically overnight but that's sure as shit the way it was sold.

No, it wasn't, despite the claims you may currently be hearing from right wing pundits.

Really? Right wing pundits. Hmm.. didn't realize he was working for Fox now.

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We have an $11T debt because those who actually pay taxes complain about having to pay too much? Really?

Yes, really. When we were finally on a path of fiscal responsibility in the last years of Clinton's budgets, how did the Republicans respond? By lowering taxes and increasing spending, a contributing factor of the recession from which we have had to pay dearly to begin recovering.

So spending increases the debt and contributed to the recession. So, in order to end the recession, we spent more money. Then, before the recession ends, there are proposals to spend more money.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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The poorest US citizen has just as much stake in the entity of the United States of America as the richest citizen in the US has.

You're absolutely right. Since he and I have equal stakes then why do I have to fund his healthcare? The poorest US citizen has just as much right to get up off his ass and go get it. It's the American Dream, not the American Gimme.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[TomAiello 26]

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If guns were not available or for some reason they were incredibly expensive, that would make a mockery of the right, wouldn't it?.

Imagine if I wanted to buy a rifle that cost $10,000. Would you argue that firearms were incredibly expensive, and that my 2nd Amendment rights were being infringed?

Or would you argue that I ought to just buy a cheaper gun for $400, instead?

What if the gun lobby had convinced Congress to pass a law outlawing any weapon that cost less than $10,000. And now they had a bill up for vote that would require every American to purchase a gun? Sounds pretty silly when you substitute guns for healthcare, doesn't it? Make you think that maybe the regulations driving the cost of guns up might be the problem?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[tbrown 26]

I'm really disappointed that this aministration is still so set against a single payer option. It is demonstrably the most efficient cost saving option. I've been following this mess since 1990, when Bush the Elder ruled the roost and healthcare was a big issue. The only thing that's got worse is health coverage, with all it's wonderful pre-existing conditions and so on. Given that I'm lucky enough to still be employed with a HMO plan in this day & age, I'm currently a bit concerned about something that seems to have been found deep inside my neck, among a bunch of nerves and critical arteries to the brain. If I get laid off, I'm really & truly fucked if it's serious. As it is, I'm going through a dance macabre to get my all-American HMO insurance plan to "pay for" seeing a specialist a second time, so he can tell me whether or not it's something to be alarmed about, or just something that needs watching over the next few/several years.

I'd like to just be able to "get 'er done" and let the guvamint foot the bill, even if it means some more taxes (as I'm already footing $124.74 a week for the bullshit I'm being put through.....)

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[jcd11235 0]

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Go to a low income subsidized housing area and look around, better cars than you or I drive, inside the finest of large screen TV sets, name brand sports clothing, iPods, iPhones, Laptops, Stacks of current DVD's, an abundant supply of alcoholic beverages, drugs and in the freezer steaks and lobster.

How dare we not give these people more of our finances so that they can overcome the setbacks they encountered as slaves and illegal aliens.


Not all people in need are this way but I say we need to better ferret out those simply playing the system.

There's nothing like a good stereotype, huh?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Then why do *I* (or Tom, or lawrocket) have to pay *their* share?

You don't. You have to pay what Congress deems to be your share.

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Why don't I get a double stake?

Contrary to what you may believe, you're not twice as important or twice as worthy than someone else just because you have a higher income.

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[jcd11235 0]

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It's also obvious that you have absolutely zero regard for me, deedy, Dr. Bordson, or anybody else who has struggled to get where we are, and find pleasure in the thought of actually inflicting pain upon us.

It's rather arrogant of you to imply that only those who are financially successful struggle. It also demonstrates a glaring disconnect with reality.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!