TomAiello 26 #76 July 25, 2009 Quote Quote Quote If someone does not have enough money to treat a terminal illness and dies because of it, what happened to their right to life as described above? What if someone doesn't have enough food, and dies of hunger? Or is homeless, and dies of exposure? The fact that the founding fathers established government programs to feed, clothe and shelter everyone in the nation clearly shows that they meant us to establish a national healthcare system. It does not mean that! Whoa...Sarcasm Alert! The founding fathers did not set up any such programs. I was using sarcasm by offering the obviously false fact that they had created such programs as "proof" that they wanted socialized medicine.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #77 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteShow me how Joe Welfare sitting on his couch provided a damn thing to me and I'll admit you may have a point. Besides a job (i.e. opportunity for employment)? Don't you work for the government, either directly or via a contracted company? Joe Welfare is now the government? How much further do you plan to stretch this collectivist analogy, Comrade?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #78 July 25, 2009 Quote Is it right that someone should die simply because he can't (or his insurance company won't) pay? Is it right that someone should starve, just because they can't pay for food? Why not address simple (and inexpensive) hunger first, before moving up to $200,000 medical procedures? How many starving children could you have fed for that $200,000? How greedy are you to take the food out of their mouths for your bone marrow transplant? Don't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? And, for D_squared: SARCASM ALERT! -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #79 July 25, 2009 QuoteWhat is it that you do for a living, Currently a student, not employed (relocating within the week), and not receiving unemployment, food stamps etc. Outside of my military service, the only government assistance I've ever received has been the Pell grant and a single week of unemployment insurance benefits. Quotedo you have a family to support, Nope. I have been careful and responsible to avoid bringing kids into the world before I can afford to raise them properly (and before I am comfortable with the idea of raising kids). Quoteand do you pay your taxes? Yes. QuoteIf you don't do any of the above or maybe only 1 of those applies to you then that answers to why you are in the mind set that you are in. I am of the mindset that I am because I have had enough mathematics, finance, accounting, actuarial science, and economics classes to be able to recognize the fiscal arguments of the economic conservative/libertarian for exactly what they are, fallacious. Quoteif this health reform takes place are you will to give up your jumping and or other activities you do? ??? That doesn't make sense. I already have temporarily given up skydiving because I don't have the extra disposable income nor access to appropriate healthcare. If health care reform takes place, that will remedy the second issue. QuoteThe amount we will all have to pay is going to hit us all hard in the pocket book. That's where you're wrong. Yes, there will be a increase in taxes. That increase, for the majority of Americans who currently have health care, will be offset by the savings from out of pocket healthcare expenditures. Consider this: The worst estimates for administration costs of Medicare are still lower than the best estimates of administration costs for private insurance companies. That difference is about 2-3¢ for every dollar spent. Our healthcare system is broken, and needs to be fixed. Private industry has had the opportunity to fix things themselves, and have failed. Personally, I'm leaning towards support for a Medicare for all type system. I'm open to alternatives, though. For example, a while back, [pirana] posted an alternative idea that involved, IIRC, private not for profits. I've not looked at the details, but on the face of it, it looked to be a viable solution as well. QuoteIf you are a home owner, it might cost you more in property tax and that increase can cause you to lose your home. Have you thought about that? Would you give up your home so mr and mrs sponge can have medical insurance for themselves and their 5 kids? Again, your questions fail to consider the money not being spent out of pocket that offsets the increased taxes. There is a fairly common misconception in the US w/r/t taxes. Many people do not seem to realize that we get things back in return for taxes paid. It's not like we are throwing money into a black hole. In most cases, by utilizing the tax system to gain tremendous buying power, we are able to buy things at a discount that we would need to buy anyway.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #80 July 25, 2009 QuoteJoe Welfare is now the government? How much further do you plan to stretch this collectivist analogy, Comrade? No, Joe Welfare is not the government. Nor is anyone asking you to pay Joe Welfare a damn cent, if you want to make that distinction.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #81 July 25, 2009 http://healthinsurance.about.com/b/2006/03/22/enrollment-in-federal-entitlement-programs-soars.htm Son, looks like somebody's handing out my money.You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #82 July 25, 2009 Quote QuoteThe amount we will all have to pay is going to hit us all hard in the pocket book. That's where you're wrong. Yes, there will be a increase in taxes. That increase, for the majority of Americans who currently have health care, will be offset by the savings from out of pocket healthcare expenditures. Do you have even one number that would suggest savings would be greater than tax increases? QuoteOur healthcare system is broken, and needs to be fixed. Private industry has had the opportunity to fix things themselves, and have failed. Personally, I'm leaning towards support for a Medicare for all type system. I'm open to alternatives, though. For example, a while back, [pirana] posted an alternative idea that involved, IIRC, private not for profits. I've not looked at the details, but on the face of it, it looked to be a viable solution as well. I'd be interested to read that. I don't know why people should be expected to work not for profit or how they would be convinced to do so. Quote There is a fairly common misconception in the US w/r/t taxes. Many people do not seem to realize that we get things back in return for taxes paid. The bigger problem most have is that so many don't pay anything. Those who pay taxes get something in return. Those who don't pay taxes get it all for nothing. QuoteIt's not like we are throwing money into a black hole. The $800B stimulus is doing wonders, isn't it? The government turns it into a black hole pretty quickly. QuoteIn most cases, by utilizing the tax system to gain tremendous buying power, we are able to buy things at a discount that we would need to buy anyway. Tremendous buying power? I guess that's why we have an $11T pulic debt. The tax system is working perfectly so let's go ahead and add a few trillion for univeral healthcare. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #83 July 25, 2009 Quotehttp://healthinsurance.about.com/b/2006/03/22/enrollment-in-federal-entitlement-programs-soars.htm Son, looks like somebody's handing out my money. Tax money is not your money. It is our money (i.e. it belongs to the collective population of the nation, state, and/or city).Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #84 July 25, 2009 QuoteDo you have even one number that would suggest savings would be greater than tax increases? Compare the administration costs of Medicare to private insurance companies. Such a comparison would certainly suggest that the savings would outweigh the costs. QuoteI'd be interested to read that. Here it is. QuoteI don't know why people should be expected to work not for profit or how they would be convinced to do so. Working for a not-for-profit entity does not imply that those performing the work make any less than their counterparts who work for for-profit entities. QuoteThe bigger problem most have is that so many don't pay anything. Another misconception is that those who owe no federal income tax pay no taxes. It simply isn't true. QuoteThose who pay taxes get something in return. Those who don't pay taxes get it all for nothing. True. I've never met anyone who didn't pay any taxes, though. QuoteQuoteIt's not like we are throwing money into a black hole. The $800B stimulus is doing wonders, isn't it? So far as I can read, it is working as intended. It was never expected to work magically overnight. QuoteTremendous buying power? I guess that's why we have an $11T pulic debt. No, we have an $11 trillion debt because too many people complain about paying too much in taxes, so there isn't enough income to cover expenses. QuoteThe tax system is working perfectly so let's go ahead and add a few trillion for univeral healthcare. The tax system isn't working perfectly (nor has anyone claimed otherwise). We pay too little in taxes, hence the large public debt.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #85 July 25, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Do you have even one number that would suggest savings would be greater than tax increases? Compare the administration costs of Medicare to private insurance companies. Such a comparison would certainly suggest that the savings would outweigh the costs. Your claim was that savings would offset tax increases. Comparing administration costs between two medicare and insurance companies does nothing. Compare tax increases to savings to validate your claim. Quote Working for a not-for-profit entity does not imply that those performing the work make any less than their counterparts who work for for-profit entities. Someone has to create and run the not-for-profit. Everyone in the business can't make the same amount and call it non-profit. Quote Quote The bigger problem most have is that so many don't pay anything. Another misconception is that those who owe no federal income tax pay no taxes. It simply isn't true. True, but you're way over simplifying it to try and make a point. The top 1% pays nearly 30% of federal taxes. Dance around and spin it all you like. You can't change the facts. Quote Quote Those who pay taxes get something in return. Those who don't pay taxes get it all for nothing. True. I've never met anyone who didn't pay any taxes, though. So people should get income tax returns at the end of the year because they paid sales tax? Reference last reply. Quote The $800B stimulus is doing wonders, isn't it? So far as I can read, it is working as intended. It was never expected to work magically overnight. You should read more, then. How has it even begun to work as inteded? Keeping unemplyment low and creating jobs? How's that working out? It may not have been intended to work magically overnight but that's sure as shit the way it was sold. Quote Quote Tremendous buying power? I guess that's why we have an $11T pulic debt. No, we have an $11 trillion debt because too many people complain about paying too much in taxes, so there isn't enough income to cover expenses. We have an $11T debt because those who actually pay taxes complain about having to pay too much? Really? I would suggest that maybe it's because the upper-middle and upper classes are taxed out and people in Washington just keep adding government programs to the list. Quote Quote The tax system is working perfectly so let's go ahead and add a few trillion for univeral healthcare. The tax system isn't working perfectly (nor has anyone claimed otherwise). We pay too little in taxes, hence the large public debt. So why don't we figure out a better plan before adding universal healthcare? -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #86 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteIs it right that someone should die simply because he can't (or his insurance company won't) pay? Is it right that someone should starve, just because they can't pay for food? Why not address simple (and inexpensive) hunger first, before moving up to $200,000 medical procedures? How many starving children could you have fed for that $200,000? How greedy are you to take the food out of their mouths for your bone marrow transplant? Don't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? What if you were in the position of needing an expensive procedure to save your life and your health care provider said "Sorry, not covered." Would you be making the same argument? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #87 July 25, 2009 Quote Your claim was that savings would offset tax increases. Comparing administration costs between two medicare and insurance companies does nothing. Compare tax increases to savings to validate your claim. That would be an impossible analysis until we have the final version of any applicable bill. Until then, all we can really do is make relevant comparisons of current, relevant private & public entities. Quote Everyone in the business can't make the same amount and call it non-profit. Yes, they can. Being non-profit indicates that the corporation does not exist to make profits for shareholders. It does not mean that those working for the non-profit corporation do so for free. Quote True, but you're way over simplifying it to try and make a point. No, I'm not. I'm pointing out the fallacious argument that such a large proportion of Americans are not paying taxes. Quote Quote Quote Those who pay taxes get something in return. Those who don't pay taxes get it all for nothing. True. I've never met anyone who didn't pay any taxes, though. So people should get income tax returns at the end of the year because they paid sales tax? How in the hell did you get that from my post? Quote How has it even begun to work as inteded? The economy seems to have slowed/stopped its downward trend. Quote It may not have been intended to work magically overnight but that's sure as shit the way it was sold. No, it wasn't, despite the claims you may currently be hearing from right wing pundits. Quote We have an $11T debt because those who actually pay taxes complain about having to pay too much? Really? Yes, really. When we were finally on a path of fiscal responsibility in the last years of Clinton's budgets, how did the Republicans respond? By lowering taxes and increasing spending, a contributing factor of the recession from which we have had to pay dearly to begin recovering.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d_squared431 0 #88 July 25, 2009 Opps, my bad on the sarcasm part, went straight over my head...[Blush] I'm just not used to SC yet. The more time I spend in here I am sure I will do better.... TPM Sister#130ONTIG#1 I love vodka.I love vodka cause it rhymes with Tuaca~LisaH You having a clean thought is like billyvance having a clean post.iluvtofly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #89 July 25, 2009 Quote I'm leaning towards support for a Medicare for all type system. I'm open to alternatives... Here's an idea that's cheaper than any of the current plans, ready to go much sooner, and provides a quality of care rated very highly by the current participants. Open the federal employees health plan (the one that the Obamas have, as well as most of the members of Congress) to open enrollment for anyone. Have the federal government pay the premiums for any person making less than $20,000 per year, or household earning less than $50,000 per year. It's cheaper, it's faster, and it offers a known high quality program. What do you think?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #90 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteIs it right that someone should die simply because he can't (or his insurance company won't) pay? Is it right that someone should starve, just because they can't pay for food? Why not address simple (and inexpensive) hunger first, before moving up to $200,000 medical procedures? How many starving children could you have fed for that $200,000? How greedy are you to take the food out of their mouths for your bone marrow transplant? Don't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? What if you were in the position of needing an expensive procedure to save your life and your health care provider said "Sorry, not covered." Would you be making the same argument? Nope. I'd be taking out a line of credit on my home or my future earnings. Or, if I thought that wasn't worth the expense that I'd saddle my children with (if I was older, for example), I'd be having some good parties and visiting all my friends and family. Care to respond to the question I asked? Why is your bone marrow transplant more important than pulling thousands of children out of hunger?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #91 July 25, 2009 Quote I don't know why people should be expected to work not for profit or how they would be convinced to do so. Easy enough to motivate them. Just throw them in prison if they refuse to work. It did real well for Comrade Stalin. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #92 July 25, 2009 Quote Opps, my bad on the sarcasm part, went straight over my head...[Blush] I'm just not used to SC yet. The more time I spend in here I am sure I will do better.... Ya gotta turn OFF the smut detector and turn ON the sarcasm detector!! Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #93 July 25, 2009 QuoteBeing non-profit indicates that the corporation does not exist to make profits for shareholders. It does not mean that those working for the non-profit corporation do so for free. Curious how you feel about the non-profit profiled here? The one who charges five times as much as the for profit hospital across town, and maintains a venture capital fund, while paying it's executives 7 figure salaries? Believe it or not, this is one of the systems that President Obama has held up as a model for the future of healthcare in this country.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #94 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIs it right that someone should die simply because he can't (or his insurance company won't) pay? Is it right that someone should starve, just because they can't pay for food? Why not address simple (and inexpensive) hunger first, before moving up to $200,000 medical procedures? How many starving children could you have fed for that $200,000? How greedy are you to take the food out of their mouths for your bone marrow transplant? Don't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? What if you were in the position of needing an expensive procedure to save your life and your health care provider said "Sorry, not covered." Would you be making the same argument? Nope. I'd be taking out a line of credit on my home or my future earnings. Or, if I thought that wasn't worth the expense that I'd saddle my children with (if I was older, for example), I'd be having some good parties and visiting all my friends and family. My bad, I should have made the assumption clear: the procedure and followup care you need are too expensive, even if you mortgaged your house and took out a dozen loans. There's just no way you could afford it. If you think it couldn't happen to you, you haven't been keeping track of how fast the price of health care has been skyrocketing. Let's make it even more personal. It's not your life that's in danger but the life of your son or daughter. The only thing that stands between your child's life and death is the decision of some health insurance bureaucrat. Under those circumstances ask yourself, should there be a right to affordable health care or not? BTW, in case it's not clear, I'm not arguing for any particular plan. The sole question I am addressing is whether access to affordable health care should or should not be a right. Quote Care to respond to the question I asked? Why is your bone marrow transplant more important than pulling thousands of children out of hunger? Sorry I thought that was the sarcastic part, complete with Star Trek reference. I'd they're both important, neither more important than the other. Life is important. But while I believe it's generally recognized that human beings have a right not to starve, they also have a right to affordable health care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #95 July 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteHow hard is it to accept that not everyone wants to sacrifice everything for the good of a government society that isn't necessarily good for them gave them the opportunity to make everything they've made? It's easy to accept that some people really are that selfish. Okay. I get it. I've done everything asked of me. I've stayed out of jail. I've paid my taxes. I've employed up to 7 people at once. I don't steal. I don't cheat. I joined to military. Oh. That USED to be satisfactory. Every opportunity that "society" gave me means, "hey. Lawrocket. You didn't think that was all, did you? Yes, we had an agreement. We met our terms. You met yours. But we have this extra little demand now. No, it wasn't part of the deal before. Shut up, Mr. Selfish! You owe society for what it's given you." Yeah. Saying, "oh, we have additional demands for you" seems rather extortionate, does it not? Aside - since my opportunities are available to all, why should I pay more. (Pssst... You don't know how I grew up...) My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #96 July 25, 2009 QuoteLet's make it even more personal. It's not your life that's in danger but the life of your son or daughter. The only thing that stands between your child's life and death is the decision of some health insurance bureaucrat. Under those circumstances ask yourself, should there be a right to affordable health care or not? No. There are lots of things I have no right to do, even if my life (or my child's life) is in the balance. If you offered to pay for the procedure if I killed someone else's child, would it be right for me to do that? What if I had the opportunity to embezzle the money to pay for the procedure? Would that be justified because my need was so dire? What if the only way to save my child's life was to enslave another human being and force them to work my fields, planting cotton, that I could sell to pay for the procedure? Would that make it ok for me to enslave someone? QuoteI'd they're both important, neither more important than the other. Life is important. But while I believe it's generally recognized that human beings have a right not to starve, they also have a right to affordable health care. On the one side is thousands of lives. On the other side is just one life. You really think those are equal? It's easy to say "you have a right" to something. It's harder to face the reality that you (or we) simply cannot afford everything. We have to make hard decisions sometimes, and we can't always have everything we want. Simply saying "I'll take both" is a cop out. You've only got the resources for one or the other--which do you choose?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #97 July 26, 2009 QuoteOpen the federal employees health plan (the one that the Obamas have, as well as most of the members of Congress) to open enrollment for anyone. Have the federal government pay the premiums for any person making less than $20,000 per year, or household earning less than $50,000 per year. Your two sentence description seems a bit oversimplified, but it's an option worth investigating further, IMO.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #98 July 26, 2009 QuoteCurious how you feel about the non-profit profiled here? Your link only shows a preview of the article. I wouldn't pass judgement on not-for-profits based on the actions/performance of one single not-for-profit, though.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #99 July 26, 2009 Apologies. I'm signed in, so I get the full article at that link. Let me see if I can find the whole thing somewhere else. It's not so much that I'm judging all non-profits. It's that I'm pointing out that non-profit is not always a better option. Plus, this is one non-profit that has been specifically held up by the President as an example of what he'd like to see.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #100 July 26, 2009 QuoteI've done everything asked of me. I've stayed out of jail. I've paid my taxes. I've employed up to 7 people at once. I don't steal. I don't cheat. I joined to military. Oh. That USED to be satisfactory. Every opportunity that "society" gave me means, "hey. Lawrocket. You didn't think that was all, did you? Yes, we had an agreement. We met our terms. You met yours. But we have this extra little demand now. No, it wasn't part of the deal before. Shut up, Mr. Selfish! You owe society for what it's given you." Yeah. Saying, "oh, we have additional demands for you" seems rather extortionate, does it not? What exactly are those additional demands? Do you not acknowledge Congress' authority to raise your taxes? Did you not read the Constitution before or after you swore to defend it?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
