Forced blood samples from DWI suspects

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Kane County in Illinois has started some "no-refusal" weekend DUI enforcement similar to what you are describing. But as I understand it, law enforcement will not physically force someone to give a blood sample. So, the problem is that even when presented with a warrant, if someone still refuses, a contempt of court charge is the only recourse.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/07/dui-crackdown-in-kane-county-leads-to-8-arrests.html


To answer the OP's question, I am very uneasy with the idea of cops dragging some guy to the hospital, strapping him down, so that blood can be taken against the person's will. Seems a bit over the top to me.

I know about this and I live here.

There is no way a police officer is qualified to draw blood.

That should only be allowed at a hospital AFTER charges are filed.

Think about this, they accidently screw up with the needle, the person is on coumadin, their INR is above where it should be.

Then they start bleeding profusely and in the midst of all the panic, they stroke out.

You know who will be left holding the tab on the lawsuits?

Yes that is correct, the taxpayer.

Not long ago the Hanover Park police chased a speeding suspect to his death when he struck a curb with his motorcycle.

He was guilt apparently of doing 20mph over the limit.

The lawsuit that was brought was won and there was not enough insurance for the city to cover that amount.

The taxpayers were forced to have taxes hiked and bonds issued to cover it.

[quade 4]

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There is no way a police officer is qualified to draw blood.

You're assuming they don't go through some sort of training? I find it extremely unlikely that would ever be the case.

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Not long ago the Hanover Park police chased a speeding suspect to his death when he struck a curb with his motorcycle.

He was guilt apparently of doing 20mph over the limit.

As well as failure to comply and evading arrest. By the time a "chase" ever takes place the person has done more than simply exceeded the speed limit and the person fleeing ALWAYS has the option to stop the chase at any point in time.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[warpedskydiver 0]

In order to draw blood in this state you need a medical license from the DPR.

So training or not, they need to be licensed and insured to practice.

[warpedskydiver 0]

The cops scared the shit out of the guy by chasing him so hard.

he was doing 55mph and the cop car nearly hit him from behind.

Length of the chase was only less than a half mile.

Chase as in speeding excessively in order to catch up to him and then hit the lights.

He never tried to evade.

[quade 4]

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The cops scared the shit out of the guy by chasing him so hard.

he was doing 55mph and the cop car nearly hit him from behind.

Length of the chase was only less than a half mile.

So, you're telling me he had 30 seconds to stop it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[champu 1]

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However I would say that if you are not guilty of DUI or DWI, then what are you afraid of? Usually it's the guilty people that dodge these issues... ...that being said, maybe the best people to ask are the ones that have lost people to others that were DUI/DWI?
More fuel for the fire!!!

In the case of legal manners, deferring to people who are emotionally involved is actually the opposite of the best thing to do.

I will always be more than willing to walk a line, blow in a tube, or pee in a cup (oh... and not drive drunk in the first place) and I'm willing to support laws and DMV fine print to make other people on the road do the same.

Blood draws are medical procedures. People fuck up medical procedures... yes even trivial ones. Increase the volume of procedures and you increase the volume of fuck ups. I'm not claiming you're going to instantly kill blind orphans en mass, I'm just saying that you will end up with some number of people who were not over the limit getting Hep-C and HIV infections.

[warpedskydiver 0]

If you are so confident that the police could do no wrong why do you think the cops lost the suit?

Also the officer was fired and was later charged.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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The cops scared the shit out of the guy by chasing him so hard.

he was doing 55mph and the cop car nearly hit him from behind.

Length of the chase was only less than a half mile.

So, you're telling me he had 30 seconds to stop it.

What part of the fact that the cop sped up excessively, got almost on his rear wheel and then hit the lights do you not understand?

The guy was not evading, he was going home.

He died a block or two away from his house.

Don't make excuses for an act that had no excuse.

[quade 4]

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If you are so confident that the police could do no wrong why do you think the cops lost the suit?

Also the officer was fired and was later charged.

I can't speak to that, but it's completely clear to me from the facts given the motorcycle rider had other options besides fleeing from the police and didn't take them. He made a very poor choice, tried to run from the cops, screwed up, got himself killed and the COP is the one that pays the price?

Yeah, I can't speak to that at all. Sometimes jurys do stupid things.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[warpedskydiver 0]

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If you are so confident that the police could do no wrong why do you think the cops lost the suit?

Also the officer was fired and was later charged.

I can't speak to that, but it's completely clear to me from the facts given the motorcycle rider had other options besides fleeing from the police and didn't take them. He made a very poor choice, tried to run from the cops, screwed up, got himself killed and the COP is the one that pays the price?

Yeah, I can't speak to that at all. Sometimes jurys do stupid things.

Again tell me how he knew it was a cop?

You mean when they were just feet from him and hit the lights?

This caused him to be startled and lose control.

55mph on a 4 lane highway is not a crime that needs to be punished by death.

It was just a $75 fine


If you were on a motorcycle, going home late at night and someone nearly runs you over from behind, then hits the lights I bet you would maintain composure.

[rickjump1 0]

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Doesn't have to be a repeat offence (Nor should it)..


clicky

I agree.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Again I guess you think the prosecutors were also stupid in that fact they brought charges against the cop?

[billvon 3,119]

>Again tell me how he knew it was a cop?

The flashing lights would be the first clue.

>This caused him to be startled and lose control.

If a driver (or a motorcycle rider) can lose control of their vehicle when they see police lights, they have a serious enough medical condition that they shouldn't be driving (or riding.)

>If you were on a motorcycle, going home late at night and someone
>nearly runs you over from behind, then hits the lights I bet you would
>maintain composure.

When that has happened to me (in a car) I pretty much assumed it was a cop.

[AggieDave 6]

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You're assuming they don't go through some sort of training?

I'll make the "assumption" for you. There *might* be an officer somewhere across the country who is a phlebotomist. However, the number of persons licensed as a peace officer and is a practicing phlebotomist is probably less than a dozen across the ENTIRE country.

Its not something that is practical to train an officer to do. Not when you can pay a phlebotomist to do it, for the rare occasion it occurs. Rare not in numbers, but in the amount of times an officer would need to draw blood from an arrested suspect in ratio to the number of suspects that officer arrests.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[justinb138 0]

On the other hand, have you ever had someone tailgating you while riding a motorcycle?

If the cop was close enough, I can easily see how it would have created a situation where it was unsafe to slow down. (Getting hit from behind on a bike = pretty painful death).

Unfortunately we don't have both sides of the story, but the people that did have both sides appear to have seen some fault in the way the pursuit was handled.

[quade 4]

Going back to the original article . . .

Nowhere does the article itself say the POLICE are the ones actually drawing the blood. Not that I find the qualifications to do so particularly high anyway; a GED and a six-week course in most cases.

It is quite literally not brain surgery and doesn't require as much training or higher education as some people here seem to be making it out to be.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[warpedskydiver 0]

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>Again tell me how he knew it was a cop?

The flashing lights would be the first clue.

>This caused him to be startled and lose control.

If a driver (or a motorcycle rider) can lose control of their vehicle when they see police lights, they have a serious enough medical condition that they shouldn't be driving (or riding.)

>If you were on a motorcycle, going home late at night and someone
>nearly runs you over from behind, then hits the lights I bet you would
>maintain composure.

When that has happened to me (in a car) I pretty much assumed it was a cop.

So if a car speeds up at an amazing rate behin d you and you do not see lights until it is mere feet away you will just assume all is OK and there is nothing to be startled about.

Gotcha.

Good thing everyone can assume it is not just some idiot trying to run you down.

I guess you are the only one who sees the truth when a Judge, Jury and Prosecutors as well as fellow officers all saw it the other way.

I know cops who don't think the police are always right.

You are one hell of a cheerleader and apologist.

[AggieDave 6]

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Nowhere does the article itself say the POLICE are the ones actually drawing the blood.

That's probably because it doesn't happen.

A cop could be easily and quickly trained by Ford to do all his own work on his Crown Vic, it doesn't mean that its a good allocation of resources or that it is done.

A previous post of mine breaks down how "forced draws" are done and a quick explanation of why they're legal (as explained in reference to Texas).

You can refuse a chemical sample, which means that basically regardless of your ALR hearing, your license is suspended for 6 months. If you're caught driving during the period of an ALR suspension due to alcohol, then you are automatically bumped to the Class B DWLI. A "forced draw" is typically supplied by a probable cause statement submitted to a magistrate, upon approval by the county attorney. The magistrate (many times a Justice of the Peace) either agrees with the probable cause statement or he/she does not. If the JP does, then its signed and issued as an evidenturary warrant. The arrested suspect is transported to an approved medical facility, the DIC paperwork is read and completed, the blood draw paperwork is completed, a phlebotomist draws the blood sample and the blood sample is placed in the DPS approved (and issued) container. That container is sealed with the right paperwork and sent ot DPS Austin (typically) for blood analysis.

Either way, its a moot point, since you can be charged and convicted for DWI regardless of your BAC. If you are shown upon trial to have been sufficiently impaired and in operation of a motor vehicle in a public place and your BAC was only .05, it may not matter. At that point its up to a jury of your peers.

To use your phrase, Paul, this isn't rocket science and every piece of the above information is available with some simple google searches and reading.

As a side note, for reference in the rest of the thread, in Texas DUI is exclusively used for persons under the age of 21 and found to have a detectable amount of an intoxicant in their system, but may not be at or over the legal limit.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[quade 4]

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Nowhere does the article itself say the POLICE are the ones actually drawing the blood.

That's probably because it doesn't happen.

Right, but some folks automatically assume they do by the hyperbole in the original post of people being "forcibly held down by burly men in government uniforms and have blood drawn from them by a needle . . . "

While JR doesn't specifically say police officers are doing it, he certainly is giving that impression with the phrase "burly men in government uniforms".

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhaig 0]

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Good thing we are all about opinions....
However I would say that if you are not guilty of DUI or DWI, then what are you afraid of? Usually it's the guilty people that dodge these issues.
As for being used in other instances, provide me an example of when your blood can be used to prove guilt? I am curious, other than know substance abusers? then again if you use drugs and they are illegal, are you a law obiding citizen???

One would think that if you know that your will have to give a blood sample that you won't drink and drive. that being said, maybe the best people to ask are the ones that have lost people to others that were DUI/DWI?
More fuel for the fire!!!

not another one...

"wah.. what are you afraid of... wah... what are you hiding... wah!!!

read the 4th and 5th amendments. please try to understand their meaning.

--
Rob

[rhaig 0]

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John,

Have you read the fine print when you signed for your DL? It says that by signing that you are consenting to chemical tests.

did you read all the fine print? it also says that refusal will not land you strapped down in a bed with a needle jabbed in your arm. It says it'll land you in an administrative hearing with a state judge to determine if your license will be suspended.

--
Rob

[rhaig 0]

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I can't speak to that, but it's completely clear to me from the facts given

so you admit to drawing a conclusion based on incomplete information.

--
Rob

[rhaig 0]

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Going back to the original article . . .

Nowhere does the article itself say the POLICE are the ones actually drawing the blood.

here in austin last year, they did just that. trained a handful of officers to draw blood on the side of the road and had a judge on standby to write warrants for checkpoint stops as well as suspected dwi traffic stops. At least they had some training. The PD Chief recently moved here from CA.

--
Rob

[quade 4]

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I can't speak to that, but it's completely clear to me from the facts given

so you admit to drawing a conclusion based on incomplete information.

I will admit that when Warped presented his case he did not provide all of the relevant information and withheld information that, while compelling, does not change my opinion.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhaig 0]

fair

--
Rob