What will capping carbon do to skydiving?

[skydived19006 4]

So, as I understand we’re considering placing a cap on carbon emission in this country. As a business owner I’ll somehow be issued some number of “carbon credits.” I don’t know if the Carbon Czar will be in charge of deciding how many carbon credits I get, if I have to purchase them or what. Regardless, it sounds to me like jump prices just went up. Now, let’s say my business gets enough carbon credits to burn 12,000 gallons of 100LL each year, however the hell much carbon that may be. I’ll also assume that carbon credits will come to be brokered, if GM (Government Motors) needs a few more carbon credits to expand their burgeoning business, they’ll have to purchase them from another entity. Let’s say that the carbon credit market gets fairly tight, and all the sudden my credits are worth big money. If the market dictates that the carbon credits issued to Myrtle Aviation Inc. DBA Air Capital Drop Zone are worth $500,000, the only reason I can think of for not closing down my cooperation is the chance that my carbon credits will someday be worth $600,000.

Oh well, if this scheme kills skydiving in the US, we can all travel to China, or India.

I’m fell all warm and fuzzy inside just knowing that such benevolent and intelligent, even omnipotent folks have risen to power, and know what’s best for us all. Utopia has to be just over the next hill! I’m so giddy, I’m about to piss myself in anticipation!

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[TomAiello 26]

Have all of your cameramen, packers and tandem masters incorporate, and file for their own carbon credits. Add some fraction of a carbon credit to the price of a ticket.

You'll still do ok as a business, since the tandems will have some credits. It's the competitive skydivers trying to train (lots of jumps with no extra people donating the carbon credits) who will really get hosed.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Have all of your cameramen, packers and tandem masters incorporate, and file for their own carbon credits. Add some fraction of a carbon credit to the price of a ticket.

You'll still do ok as a business, since the tandems will have some credits. It's the competitive skydivers trying to train (lots of jumps with no extra people donating the carbon credits) who will really get hosed.

There is no need to do that as credits will have a known market value. They will not be the new money, they will just cost money.
Martin since your allotment of credits will be on a per/unit of time basis you will have to keep your business open in order to keep your allotment coming in. Shorter seasons and shorter work weeks will certainly be an option as you can sell some of the credits and jack up the price of the jumps made with the remainder.

[quade 4]

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I don’t know if the Carbon Czar will be in charge of deciding how many carbon credits I get, if I have to purchase them or what.

Well, rather than pissing yourself, you could just wait until the NPRM is issued, read it and comment. There may even be exceptions to certain small businesses. Ya won't know though until it's published.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TomAiello 26]

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There is no need to do that as credits will have a known market value. They will not be the new money, they will just cost money.

Won't there be some "free allotment" given out? Or does every credit need to be purchased?

Hey, this might be the solution to the deficit!

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Andrewwhyte 1]

This is a very large question. If everyone starts with zero and has to buy them, that would be a carbon tax. Now no pol wants to be seen advocating that. Besides the major corps have no plans to pay for their credits.

[rushmc 23]

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Have all of your cameramen, packers and tandem masters incorporate, and file for their own carbon credits. Add some fraction of a carbon credit to the price of a ticket.

You'll still do ok as a business, since the tandems will have some credits. It's the competitive skydivers trying to train (lots of jumps with no extra people donating the carbon credits) who will really get hosed.

There is no need to do that as credits will have a known market value. They will not be the new money, they will just cost money.
Martin since your allotment of credits will be on a per/unit of time basis you will have to keep your business open in order to keep your allotment coming in. Shorter seasons and shorter work weeks will certainly be an option as you can sell some of the credits and jack up the price of the jumps made with the remainder.

And Goldman Sacs Al Gore and Obamamites will get rich.
So, I am going to dump a wad into Gore Inc and Goldman, make a killing and move to a tropical island.

ssswwwweeeetttttt

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gawain 0]

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I don’t know if the Carbon Czar will be in charge of deciding how many carbon credits I get, if I have to purchase them or what.

Well, rather than pissing yourself, you could just wait until the NPRM is issued, read it and comment. There may even be exceptions to certain small businesses. Ya won't know though until it's published.

Assuming that there is time to read it before it passes...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Assuming that there is time to read it before it passes...

Hey, come on, they hired a speed reader--he can just read it aloud before the vote.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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There may even be exceptions to certain small businesses. Ya won't know though until it's published.

This makes it even more insidious. Whenever the legislators decide who gets a pass they inevitably decide for their contributors.
A carbon tax (or beter yet a carbon auction) is in fact the only fair way to do it. the problem is it is a very tough sell politically.

[billeisele 130]

certainly no one thinks that the utility, steel, paper and other smoke-stack industries will let this thing pass

the lobbyists are in high gear

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[chuckakers 426]

Quote

So, as I understand we’re considering placing a cap on carbon emission in this country. As a business owner I’ll somehow be issued some number of “carbon credits.” I don’t know if the Carbon Czar will be in charge of deciding how many carbon credits I get, if I have to purchase them or what. Regardless, it sounds to me like jump prices just went up. Now, let’s say my business gets enough carbon credits to burn 12,000 gallons of 100LL each year, however the hell much carbon that may be. I’ll also assume that carbon credits will come to be brokered, if GM (Government Motors) needs a few more carbon credits to expand their burgeoning business, they’ll have to purchase them from another entity. Let’s say that the carbon credit market gets fairly tight, and all the sudden my credits are worth big money. If the market dictates that the carbon credits issued to Myrtle Aviation Inc. DBA Air Capital Drop Zone are worth $500,000, the only reason I can think of for not closing down my cooperation is the chance that my carbon credits will someday be worth $600,000.

Oh well, if this scheme kills skydiving in the US, we can all travel to China, or India.

I’m fell all warm and fuzzy inside just knowing that such benevolent and intelligent, even omnipotent folks have risen to power, and know what’s best for us all. Utopia has to be just over the next hill! I’m so giddy, I’m about to piss myself in anticipation!

Martin

One thing you can bet on. The people who will assign your carbon credit limit won't know the first thing about jumping from planes. You can also expect the cost of skydiving to go through the roof because of the people assigning you those carbon credits will make damn sure you don't get as many as you need. That way they can charge you a carbon tax for the credits you actually use.

That's the real purpose of cap and trade. It's a whole new way to get into your wallet and control you.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[rhys 0]

I helped a mate out last year at his DZ in australia, he is carbon neutral.

A couple of dollars from each customer goes to a fund that plants trees in mined areas etc.

It is a minimal cost and it goes to a company that deals with it all so it is easy too.

A couple of customers even mentioned that was the reason why they decided to jump there.

It need not be all bad, and assuming what will hapen is no way to deal with things.

I bet lodi's jump tickets won't go up!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Gawain 0]

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I helped a mate out last year at his DZ in australia, he is carbon neutral.

A couple of dollars from each customer goes to a fund that plants trees in mined areas etc.

It is a minimal cost and it goes to a company that deals with it all so it is easy too.

A couple of customers even mentioned that was the reason why they decided to jump there.

It need not be all bad, and assuming what will hapen is no way to deal with things.

I bet lodi's jump tickets won't go up!

How big is the DZ, type of aircraft, etc., hours of operation? This could be a pro-active template.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 3,120]

>What will capping carbon do to skydiving?

It will make aircraft fueled by high carbon fuel (currently 99.99% of aircraft) more expensive to operate. So ticket prices will go up, at least until more alternate-fuel aircraft become available. Cessnas STC'ed for E85 will probably be the first aircraft available.

[Gawain 0]

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>What will capping carbon do to skydiving?

It will make aircraft fueled by high carbon fuel (currently 99.99% of aircraft) more expensive to operate. So ticket prices will go up, at least until more alternate-fuel aircraft become available. Cessnas STC'ed for E85 will probably be the first aircraft available.

That won't alleviate costs much will it, E85 is a less efficient fuel for aircraft just as it is for cars right?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rhys 0]

Quote

How big is the DZ, type of aircraft, etc., hours of operation? This could be a pro-active template.

He uses a c182 and he can be flat out all day on a weekend with dribs and drabs on a weekday.

he doesn't have to be carbon neutral, he just wants to be, also it is good for marketing.

The way it is set up it wouldn't matter how busy you are, you pay a certain amout (AUS$2.00 from memory) per customer.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 3,120]

> E85 is a less efficient fuel for aircraft just as it is for cars right?

In exactly the same engine, yes. In a higher compression engine you gain the efficiency back at the cost of not being gasoline compatible.

That will be a little ways off, since it's a major change to the engine. However, if your choice is a $26 ticket in a gas powered C206, or an $18 ticket in an ethanol powered C206, do you really care how efficient the fuel is?

[Gawain 0]

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> E85 is a less efficient fuel for aircraft just as it is for cars right?

In exactly the same engine, yes. In a higher compression engine you gain the efficiency back at the cost of not being gasoline compatible.

That will be a little ways off, since it's a major change to the engine. However, if your choice is a $26 ticket in a gas powered C206, or an $18 ticket in an ethanol powered C206, do you really care how efficient the fuel is?

If I'm running the business and have to recoup the cost of conversion, I don't know if you'd see that big of a drop in prices. Plus, lower fuel cost allows for higher margins, and that would certainly come into play as well.

Having said that, I was under the impression that even in higher-compression engines, E85 did not have equal return in power, or in efficiency (?)...??

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

> E85 is a less efficient fuel for aircraft just as it is for cars right?

In exactly the same engine, yes. In a higher compression engine you gain the efficiency back at the cost of not being gasoline compatible.

That will be a little ways off, since it's a major change to the engine. However, if your choice is a $26 ticket in a gas powered C206, or an $18 ticket in an ethanol powered C206, do you really care how efficient the fuel is?

If I'm running the business and have to recoup the cost of conversion, I don't know if you'd see that big of a drop in prices. Plus, lower fuel cost allows for higher margins, and that would certainly come into play as well.

Having said that, I was under the impression that even in higher-compression engines, E85 did not have equal return in power, or in efficiency (?)...??

More HP can be found in high compression engines using E85. More HP can be found in high compression high octane gas engines too. But, to your point, a BTU is a BTU. Regardless of the fuel. What E85 gives you is more volume (to equal the BTU's) which has a cooling effect on the engine. This cooling effect can save engine parts by reducing internal heat. So, you can get more HP out of E85 but, you have to dump more in. Comparing "efficiencies" or costs needs to be done looking at cost per load and how many loads per hour. That takes into account the gallons used per jumpers per load. Then the cost of E85 vs the cost of the "gas" being used vs the loads per hour at what altitude all need to be considered.

I dont know how E85 206 planes compare to what we have today. And that cost will not be static if more and more planes use the stuff.


That all said what about turbine planes?

Sorry, I have rambled. Negro Modelo does that to me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[skydived19006 4]

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> E85 is a less efficient fuel for aircraft just as it is for cars right?

In exactly the same engine, yes. In a higher compression engine you gain the efficiency back at the cost of not being gasoline compatible.

That will be a little ways off, since it's a major change to the engine. However, if your choice is a $26 ticket in a gas powered C206, or an $18 ticket in an ethanol powered C206, do you really care how efficient the fuel is?

So, where the hell is all this ethanol going to come from? It's already driving up the cost of grain. Are we going to convert all our farm land to growing corn/grass/what the fuck ever so we can burn our food in our vehicles? Maybe we stop importing fuel, and start importing all of our food?

I know! Airplanes have a whole lot of wing surface, and we fly for the most part during the day. Solar panels on the top of the wings, and a electric motor spinning the fan blade! Talk about green!

I don't believe that there is a single sole on earth who's read and understands this piece of legislation. It's stupid on top of stupid.

As usual, enjoy your unintended consequences. In the end when all goes south, I'm sure it'll once again be "big business", "greedy rich people", "George Bush" etc.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[rhaig 0]

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Assuming that there is time to read it before it passes...

Hey, come on, they hired a speed reader--he can just read it aloud before the vote.

No need...

PRESENT!

--
Rob

[kmfenaughty 0]

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Well, rather than pissing yourself, you could just wait until the NPRM is issued, read it and comment. There may even be exceptions to certain small businesses. Ya won't know though until it's published.

Oh .. you mean like the congress is doing ?

99% of the people on this earth are sheep ... dare to be different

[kmfenaughty 0]

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So, as I understand we’re considering placing a cap on carbon emission in this country. ~snip ~

Oh well, if this scheme kills skydiving in the US, we can all travel to China, or India.

I’m fell all warm and fuzzy inside just knowing that such benevolent and intelligent, even omnipotent folks have risen to power, and know what’s best for us all. Utopia has to be just over the next hill! I’m so giddy, I’m about to piss myself in anticipation!

Martin

No need to worry … this will not apply to the airline industry, you don’t think AlGore is planning on flying commercial do ya ?

This is a total farce … how many ton’s of JP-5 / F-44 / AVCAT are burned every day ?

Aircraft carriers in the gulf hold 2-3 million gallons of JP-5 .. enough to be used as ballast .. and get a refill of 1 million gallons every week according to the Military Channel.

Do you think that they are going to create CAFE standards for the airline industry not to mention the RAIL ROAD industry or god forbid ... the MILITARY.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.43ac99aefa80569eea57529cdba046a0/

When it all boils down … AlGore claimed he “invented the internet” but perhaps he really “invented GLOBAL WARMING" or as it’s now known GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE .. but it really should be known as GLOBAL WEALTH DISTRIBUTION

How many ton’s of AVCAT do you think they burned on Air Force 1’s little picture taking trip over New York City a couple of month’s ago .. let alone the FUEL used in the president’s trip to G-8 conference ?

Remember …. all of the vehicles that have to be transported ahead of the president let alone the fuel used on AF-1 is actually transported to the refueling site from a “secure source” ..

99% of the people on this earth are sheep ... dare to be different

[skydived19006 4]

Quote

Quote

So, as I understand we’re considering placing a cap on carbon emission in this country. ~snip ~

Oh well, if this scheme kills skydiving in the US, we can all travel to China, or India.

I’m fell all warm and fuzzy inside just knowing that such benevolent and intelligent, even omnipotent folks have risen to power, and know what’s best for us all. Utopia has to be just over the next hill! I’m so giddy, I’m about to piss myself in anticipation!

Martin

No need to worry … this will not apply to the airline industry, you don’t think AlGore is planning on flying commercial do ya ?

This is a total farce … how many ton’s of JP-5 / F-44 / AVCAT are burned every day ?

Aircraft carriers in the gulf hold 2-3 million gallons of JP-5 .. enough to be used as ballast .. and get a refill of 1 million gallons every week according to the Military Channel.

Do you think that they are going to create CAFE standards for the airline industry not to mention the RAIL ROAD industry or god forbid ... the MILITARY.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/menuitem.43ac99aefa80569eea57529cdba046a0/

When it all boils down … AlGore claimed he “invented the internet” but perhaps he really “invented GLOBAL WARMING" or as it’s now known GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE .. but it really should be known as GLOBAL WEALTH DISTRIBUTION

How many ton’s of AVCAT do you think they burned on Air Force 1’s little picture taking trip over New York City a couple of month’s ago .. let alone the FUEL used in the president’s trip to G-8 conference ?

Remember …. all of the vehicles that have to be transported ahead of the president let alone the fuel used on AF-1 is actually transported to the refueling site from a “secure source” ..

I would say "it's politics as usual", but this stuff is "as usual" to the 10th power! Have we not just increased the debt by $10,000,000,000,000? The Republicans were not exactly spend thrifts either, but nothing nearing this shit. I'd much prefer government gridlock!

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ