Marine Corps Operation in Southern Afghanistan to Drink Tea & Eat Lots of Goat

[nerdgirl 0]

Admittedly I’m running this through a wide band-pass John Stewart-esque filter …

And if anyones wants me to go into earnest acronym-filled, defense wonk mode on counterinsurgency strategy, counterterrorism, strategic culture, SSTR, PRTs, etc, have no doubt that I’m willing & able to do so.



BG Lawrence Nicholson to a group of Marines at Camp Leatherneck, Afghanistan on Sunday:

“We’re not going to measure your success by the number of times your ammunition is resupplied. . . . Our success in this environment will be very much predicated on restraint. You’re going to drink lots of tea. You’re going to eat lots of goat. Get to know the people. That’s the reason why we’re here.”

I’d be in trouble (in more ways than one) cause somehow I don’t imagine that there’s tofu-goat in Helmand.

Frankly, don’t think that it’s a completely farcical metric – eating the local food – for population-centric COIN and in line with what the new guy in charge in Afghanistan & others have been advocating.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[warpedskydiver 0]

Goat is good food, I have eaten it in most places I went.

I like it as Souvlaki, I like it as a sauage, I like it in curry.

Heck, goat is the other-other white meat.

Goat is good on a spit slowly roasted and spiced with lemon, garlic, olive oil, and oregano.

Weak tea is for pussies

[Lefty 0]

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You’re going to drink lots of tea. You’re going to eat lots of goat. You're going to re-paint lots of toilet bowls. Get to know the people. That’s the reason why we’re here.

Godspeed, Marines.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[warpedskydiver 0]

If they went back to C-rations they would beg for goat.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

Brown people are stupid and if you eat their filthy goat meat and drink their rancid tea they will forget all about the thousands of accidental deaths.

[Lefty 0]

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And if anyones wants me to go into earnest acronym-filled, defense wonk mode on counterinsurgency strategy, counterterrorism, strategic culture, SSTR, PRTs, etc, have no doubt that I’m willing & able to do so.

Please do, if you have the time.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[JohnRich 4]

Sure. The "hearts and minds" strategy worked so well in Vietnam, I'm sure they can duplicate that success here. And I'm quite certain that the Afghan villagers will believe that Obama is with them for the long haul, and that he won't abandon them to retribution from the Taliban.

[lawrocket 3]

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Brown people are stupid and if you eat their filthy goat meat and drink their rancid tea they will forget all about the thousands of accidental deaths.

I'd suggest then, that there may be some significant benefits to humanizing the "brown people.". You know, get to know them so that you are less likely to kill them. On the other hand, they are less likely to kill you because you are now human to them.

I don't seem to recall the US population cheering the slaying of that "brown" person Neda in Iran. Frankly, those like me who have been in the military trusted our lives to "brown" people.

I know that Malatesta favored killing those who resisted the his movement. What better way to put himself at the top than to lead a revolt and destroy everybody who held back his domination?

Americans in general seem to be pretty good at separating the people from the rulers.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Skyrad 0]

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And if anyones wants me to go into earnest acronym-filled, defense wonk mode on counterinsurgency strategy, counterterrorism, strategic culture, SSTR, PRTs, etc, have no doubt that I’m willing & able to do so.

Sounds like a threat to me!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Hell yea, curried goat...YUM! Goat Biriyani is my fave. Agree about weak tea.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[lawrocket 3]

I don't see the hearts and minds issue the same way as in Vietnam. Even in Vietnam we had the Hmong helpinging out.

I totally see your point, but humanizing the population and them humanizing us can certainly cause little harm - so long as we watch our backs.

The only place that I can say this tactic would be worthless would be NoKo. There I believe that the citizens truly are a lost cause.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Brown people are stupid and if you eat their filthy goat meat and drink their rancid tea they will forget all about the thousands of accidental deaths.

W/r/t drinking rancid yak butter tea I do have experience. In Nepal not Afghanistan tho'. I drank it and said thank you. Will defer to other folks w/r/t goat meat.

More detailed, wonk-ish comments w/r/t the significance of eating and drinking here.

The cups of tea is in some liklihood something of a reference to Greg Mortenson’s book and his very successful efforts to build girl’s school in rural Afghanistan. “When Gen. Petraeus read Three Cups of Tea,” Mortenson says, “he sent me an e-mail with three bullet points of what he'd gleaned from the book: Build relationships, listen more, and have more humility and respect.”

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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Sure. The "hearts and minds" strategy worked so well in Vietnam, I'm sure they can duplicate that success here. And I'm quite certain that the Afghan villagers will believe that Obama is with them for the long haul, and that he won't abandon them to retribution from the Taliban.

That's a legitimate criticism of counterinsurgency strategy.

And I still think those who try to apply, like some sort of carbon copy, the COIN strategies used in Iraq to Afghanistan will be a set-up for results that do not advance US interests.

Given the rural nature of the Vietnamese insurgency, one can build a good argument that it may be a better model for comparison with the overwhlemingly rural insurgency of Afghanistan than the largely urban insurgency of Iraq.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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I'd suggest then, that there may be some significant benefits to humanizing the "brown people.". You know, get to know them so that you are less likely to kill them. On the other hand, they are less likely to kill you because you are now human to them.

Your comments reminded me of some I heard in early 2005 by Kimberly Marten, who had been embedded as a researcher with Canadian Forces in western Kabul, Afghanistan in 2003 & 2004. She gave a talk entitled “Enforcing the Peace: There Aren’t Enough Canadians.” To synopsize w/inherant risks over-simplification, the argument is largely reflected in the 3rd sentence of your comment quoted above because at the time Canadian soldiers were operating in a much more population-centric manner, for a number of underlying reasons.

In reading BG Nicholson’s bio, I noticed he was born in Toronto.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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You're going to drink lots of tea. You're going to eat lots of goat.

Goat is GOOD. After we had cabrito (kid) in Spain my wife started getting my goat at the local ethnic foods market. Yum! In sunny California she shops at the local carniceria so she can cook tasty animal parts for us which you can't buy at most American supermarkets.

I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.

[lawrocket 3]

I see things this way - the military is trained to do military things. But they are people.

Military operations, by their very nature, are positional. "Positions" are what are argued about so frequently in politics, in here, anywhere. Wars and arguments are both species of positional conflict resolution.

On the other side of positional conflict resolution is interest. What are our interests? Our positions may be different but our interests may be the same.

Things may seem rough, but commonality is what people look for. I'm a libertarian. My best friend is a Ph.D. In economics who is also a post-Keynesian socialist.

We got to know each other as beer fans and hockey fans.

We hang out with family over food and drink. We date people over food and drink. We have wedding dinners. We have dinner events. We have office parties over dinner where people get to know each other on a level outside of professional.

I had no problem being the eltee in my unit. And at beer and dinner afterwards, I was Jerry.

Eat up, I saw. Cook some goat for the Afghanis with some American stylings. Eat Afghani goat that they have made.

And we can find some commonality. Sure, it likely won't mean they love us. But it also likely means that we won't be hated.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[vortexring 0]

Goats fucking horrible - with a filthy grey palour to the rancid meat as well.

I'm amazed so many speak in its favour - it's utterly gopping. And also stinks. And when some local idiot is passing you a handful - from his hand - oh yum, yum! Not.

Give me KFC thighs any-day, alright? :)

As for hearts and minds? Pretty simple - give your day to day Afghan' people something they can believe in and then we could have a situation similiar to the Borneo campaign all those years ago. Anyone have any good ideas? Of course - it has to be coupled with smashing utter fuck out of the Taliban in Pakistan too, whilst avoiding the inevitablies of war as best you can.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[warpedskydiver 0]

Go eat your supply of cold pork pies will ya?

As for eating from some wankers hand, no thanks.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Yep viable crops, existing opium turned into actual medicine.

Afghanistan needs a way to earn a living.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Reminds me of the lamb sausages, seeing rotten toothed old ladies chewing and spitting the meat into the casings was quite a sight.

mmmmmmmmm

No thanks, I will have a chapatti.
The rice is OK, but make sure the ghee is not rancid.

Tabbing your ass off while your colon is dragging really sucks I bet.

[jcd11235 0]

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BG Lawrence Nicholson to a group of Marines at Camp Leatherneck, Afghanistan on Sunday:

“We’re not going to measure your success by the number of times your ammunition is resupplied. . . . Our success in this environment will be very much predicated on restraint. You’re going to drink lots of tea. You’re going to eat lots of goat. Get to know the people. That’s the reason why we’re here.”

If the military leadership is only now understanding the importance of of the "hearts and minds" strategy, then it is no wonder why Afghanistan has been such a difficult struggle for us. Why do we find it so difficult to learn the lessons of successes in the war on terror? I elaborated further in this post.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[LouDiamond 1]

Everyone acts like this is a new idea or approach. The fact of the matter is that the US Army Special Forces has been applying this strategy where ever they go. And people wonder how 12 guys can accomplish what a Battalion of infantry cannot. The Marines thought they could emulate this principal when they created MarSoc and modeled it after SOF. Some of us know how thats gone over, for those who don't, the answer is like a lead ballon. There is a reason why SF has a selection process and that simply being physically fit isn't enough to get you the job.


The problem with this new "solution" is that traditionally, conventional forces do not do this very well when given this mission. They are simply not prepared to operate in a manner that is at its heart, unconventional. You cannot just shake and bake the senior leadership with a few classes and expect them to make it work like Army SF does. Every man, down to the lowest ranking soldier, has to understand the dynamics of the situation and how their actions can have a far greater influence than they can ever imagine. Typically, thats hard for a gung ho 20 something soldier to grasp let alone apply in an environment that by it's nature is unpredictable and can be unstable minute to minute. I've witnessed it first hand in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries where I've had months of hard work and trust that an SF team had established with the locals disappear in an instance because the actions of conventional forces. It simply boils down to the old saying..."use the right tool for the job".

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[vortexring 0]

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Everyone acts like this is a new idea or approach.

Everyone? Hope that doesn't include me. Didn't General Petraeus formulate some of his doctrine for the Counterinsurgency field manual from British Counterinsurgency doctrine and experiences in Malaya and NI? Lt Col Nagl, one of the manuals biggest contributors, argues how we got it right in Malaya whilst America got it wrong in Vietnam, attributing this to the British army's organisational culture and ability to learn from unanticipated conditions.

It's my belief that all soldiers should be - to a man - flexible enough to incorporate such strategies within their particular areas of soldiering. Flexibility - the key to all good operations.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

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Go eat your supply of cold pork pies will ya?

I've eat them all! Can you me sort out a resup? An airborne delivery will be fine - just let us know 'P' hour and I'll mark the DZ.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[nerdgirl 0]

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If the military leadership is only now understanding the importance of of the "hearts and minds" strategy, then it is no wonder why Afghanistan has been such a difficult struggle for us.

Imo, a good portion of the military leadership recognizes it … or understands that it is the current path forward. Or at least the importance of counterinsurgency (COIN) operations over conventional operations w/r/t Afghanistan. Such lack of understanding, or perhaps ‘embracing’ is a better word, of COIN strategy & operations has been credited by many as a primary reason behind GEN McKiernan’s (former head of US & NATO operations in Afghanistan) removal.

There are centers of gravity within the military leadership that have valid counter-COIN arguments, largely at the senior field grade officer level, imo, that should be addressed. There also are centers of gravity that resist based on other factors, e.g., there isn’t a clear role for big ships and stealth fighters in population-centric warfare and ‘rice-bowl’ budget cuts. Look at the fight SecDef Gates is having on the F-22. And it appears that he lost to domestic politics. My Senators, Johnny Isakson and Saxby Chambliss, have been among the most vocal opponents because the planes are assembled in Cobb County. (I.e., what Mike might call 'bread & circuses,' except it's sweet tea in Georgia.) As the aphorism goes: where one stands not infrequently correlates directly with where one sits.

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Why do we find it so difficult to learn the lessons of successes in the war on terror?

I think that’s a general human trait applies to a whole lotta things.

And, from my perspective, the structures to enable lessons learned within the US military has never been more robust. In the early days of OIF, four Army Captains set up “CompanyCommand.com” in order to share lessons learned with other junior officers. Another example is the Army Center for Lessons Learned (CALL). Of all organizations, the military excels at knowing history. Applying it is another hurdle.

The big strategy & policy decisions are made at NSC and OSD level not at the joint staff, services, or combatant commands, e.g., CENTCOM. At the bottom, you think your issue is the *most* important – because it *is* to you. At the top, one rarely has the time to get into the metaphorical weeds and one has competing interests. One of the hardest things, imo, is to see from top to bottom.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying