Sotomayor Overturned

[Para_Frog 1]

I'm being serious here. Someone please explain to me how a promotion test can be biased based on anything other than intellect.

One of the plaintiffs in the suit is hispanic, so to say the tests are skewed towards whites makes no sense to me. It's skewed towards people who know the material. And they scored higher.

The black firefighters just need to hit the books more, as I'm sure plenty of white guys who didn't make the cut do.

Wtf was Sotomayor thinking? Or Ginsberg for that matter?

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Wtf was Sotomayor thinking?

Probably that the mere quality of being a minority (although, in this case, not a Latino--maybe that's just for women) would make one "wiser" regardless of actually having studied the material.

It's downright scary that promotions in a totally results-based profession could be awarded (or denied) based on skin color. I doubt very much that the fire cares what color the guys fighting it are. And if someone's home is consumed by an out of control blaze, it will be scant consolation to them that they have advanced racial "equity" by making such a sacrifice.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[redlegphi 0]

Quote

Wtf was Sotomayor thinking?

1) It was a 5-4 decision, so it's not like she was completely out of her mind to have interpreted the law that way.
2) It was a case before the Supreme Court. Most of the cases before the Supreme Court are there because they aren't cut and dry cases. It's therefore pretty safe to assume that there were sound legal arguments on both sides of this case, regardless of what common sense might tell us.

[Para_Frog 1]

Got that.

Doesn't answer my question.

HOW is a test biased towards a skin color?

I took several promotion tests when I was a cop (similar municipal structure) and the questions all revolved around law, policy, procedures, knowledge of investigative techniques, etc.

You don't prevail because you're white. You prevail because you've studied. And I got my ass handed to me by more than one black cop on an exam.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[redlegphi 0]

Quote

HOW is a test biased towards a skin color?

The big problem in this case is that it's not clear if/how the test was biased towards skin color. New Haven asked a company to create a test. They used it for the first time and saw that white candidates were passing at a rate twice that of black ones. They assumed that this was going to get them sued based on Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, so they dumped the test. This resulted in them getting sued by the white candidates for violation of the same Title.
Was the test biased due to race in some way? Undetermined. It could be biased or it could have just been a statistical anomaly. New Haven probably should have looked a bit closer at why there was such a variance in scores before they scrapped the whole test.
All that being said, it's not a cut and dry case, so I don't think it's easy to say Sotomayor was wrong to rule the way she did when the case was before her.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

sound legal arguments on both sides of this case, regardless of what common sense might tell us.

legal stuff summarized in a very pithy statement

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I doubt very much that the fire cares what color the guys fighting it are

yay, common sense summarized in a pithy statement

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,076]

>HOW is a test biased towards a skin color?

Tests can be (and have been) biased towards a specific group, and that specific group may have a predominant race (i.e. skin color.)

The MMPT is a classic example, a diagnostic personality test based on the responses of predominantly white middle-aged men in Minnesota in the 1930's.

A few others:

Here are some questions from an old Australian intelligence test.

================
-Three of the following items may be classified with salt-water crocodile. Which are they?

marine turtle brolga frilled lizard black snake (circle your answers)

-Which items may be classified with sugar?

honey witchetty-grub flour water-lillies (circle your answers)

-You are out in the bush with your wife and young children and you are all hungry. You have a rifle and bullets. You see three animals all within range - a young emu, a large kangaroo and a small female wallaby. Which should you shoot for food?

Young emu Large kangaroo Small female wallaby
=================

Clearly someone without a knowledge of Australia would be at a disadvantage there.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Clearly someone without a knowledge of Australia would be at a disadvantage there.

But that's not *race*.

It would be like asking a whuffo which handle cuts away the main... they are not going to be able to answer. But a first jump student should know no matter what color they are. If they don't, then they should not be allowed to jump no matter what color they are.

It is not like we should allow one race to be wrong and still be allowed to jump just because the color of their skin.

Unless you wish to claim that the FJC has a racial bias?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rickjump1 0]

Of course tests in 1930 were designed to exclude blacks. That was how the US Naval Academy excluded minorities for years. This about today. You know the material or you don't. About 15 years ago, didn't a fire in Oakland get out control because one of the subchiefs got his position through affirmative action? You remember anything like that?.......spelling

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[futuredivot 0]

Quote

Clearly someone without a knowledge of Australia would be at a disadvantage there.

And if this were a test to become an Australian tour guide it might have something to do with the OP. Every promotion type test I've ever taken has been based on details, facts, procedures. The answers aren't open to interpretation.
I had a real issue when the fire academy lowered the physical standards for women candidates. I felt then, and still do feel that roofs don't lower, hallways don't shorten, and weights don't decrease just because a woman is approaching them.
My take is that I would want the best qualified officer in charge of safety, not the most politically correct demographic sample.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[billvon 3,076]

>But that's not *race*.

Well, in the Australia case it was - it was a test designed for aboriginal inhabitants of Queensland.

But in any case, like I said, there are tests that are biased towards one _group_ of people; often those groups are predominantly one race. As an example, if you did an intelligence test with one test in English, and one in Swahili, do you think the results would show a racial bias? Would that be because one race is dumber/smarter than another, or would it be that Swahili-speakers are primarily one race?

>Unless you wish to claim that the FJC has a racial bias?

I've never seen one that did - but you could indeed teach a FJC that had a racial bias.

[TomAiello 26]

What's the bearing of some old test from Australia? How does it relate to a fire department exam given in the 21st century, in the USA?

I think the only relation is that you are using it to divert attention away from the real issues here.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

Clearly someone without a knowledge of Australia would be at a disadvantage there.

And if this were a test to become an Australian tour guide it might have something to do with the OP. Every promotion type test I've ever taken has been based on details, facts, procedures. The answers aren't open to interpretation.
I had a real issue when the fire academy lowered the physical standards for women candidates. I felt then, and still do feel that roofs don't lower, hallways don't shorten, and weights don't decrease just because a woman is approaching them.
My take is that I would want the best qualified officer in charge of safety, not the most politically correct demographic sample.

Ultimately the problem with written tests is that to a degree they always measure vocabulary and other knowledge that is not actually relevant to the subject at hand. The example Bill gave effectively tests your knowledge of common Australian words, which from an American perspective borders on slang. You can easily to do the same in the US.

Physical standards are much easier to measure - a pushup is a pushup. But even then you have arbitrary standards - pushups don't put out fires either. Running a mile in X minutes is just a measure of sustained aerobic performance, not firefighting. Your best tests are ones that actually involve running up the ladder and retrieving someone. And you're right - a 120lb person is generally far less able to do this.

[rickjump1 0]

Running up the ladder might also include the knowledge of putting out a fire.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[SpeedRacer 1]

does anyone have a link to an article that shows WHY the test might be biased (apart from the outcome)? As in: specific examples of questions in the test that might be slanted in favor of one ethnic group over another?

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[billvon 3,076]

>What's the bearing of some old test from Australia?

Parafrog wondered how any test could be biased. I gave an example of one that was.

>How does it relate to a fire department exam given in the 21st century, in
>the USA?

Tests can be racially biased. Thus it is appropriate to ask if the results of such a test fairly represent a candidate's aptitude for the position they are applying for, or whether they represent the inherent bias of the test.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Thus it is appropriate to ask if the results of such a test fairly represent a candidate's aptitude for the position they are applying for, or whether they represent the inherent bias of the test.

Which, evidently, the lower court either failed to do or did not interpret the results correctly.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

Sotomayor Overturned

Actually, it was a unanimous 3-judge panel of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, of which she was one member, that was overturned.

BTW, the Second Circuit affirmed the decision of the trial judge.

In terms of raw arithmetic only, 8 judges have ruled in favor of the city, and 5 have ruled in favor of the firefighters.
(8 = 1 trial judge + the 3 judges on the Ct of Appeals + the 4 SCOTUS justices in the minority.
5 = the 5 SCOTUS justices in the majority.)

Quote

Wtf was Sotomayor thinking? Or Ginsberg for that matter?

Both the Second Circuit's opinion, and Justice Ginsberg's opinion, are published. Each is easily retreivable, by the general public, without having to log-in to anything, through a simple Google search. Read them. You'll find your answers right there, in black and white.

[redlegphi 0]

Quote

Quote

Thus it is appropriate to ask if the results of such a test fairly represent a candidate's aptitude for the position they are applying for, or whether they represent the inherent bias of the test.

Which, evidently, the lower court either failed to do or did not interpret the results correctly.

If I'm reading the opinion of the lower court right (and since I"m not a lawyer, it's entirely probable that I'm not) the city of New Haven should have conducted a validation test to ensure that their new test was adequately job-related so that they could avoid a law suit based on a claim of disparate impact. They failed to do that and just hoped that the test results wouldn't show any racial disparity. Unfortunately for them, it did. So at that point, they're faced with either getting sued by the African-American firefighters based on a disparate impact argument or getting sued by the white firefighters for tossing out the test. They apparently chose the latter and lost. They may have chosen the former and lost as well, though I'd be interested to hear from some actual lawyers on how they'd have seen that case. It seems that New Haven pretty much couldn't win once they fucked themselves initially by not validating the test.

[grimmie 186]

http://www.reason.com/news/show/133138.html

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Thus it is appropriate to ask if the results of such a test fairly represent a candidate's aptitude for the position they are applying for, or whether they represent the inherent bias of the test.

Did you read how this test was created and graded?

From the decision:

***After reviewing bids from various consultants, the City hired Industrial/Organizational Solutions, Inc. (IOS) to develop and administer the examinations, at a cost to the City of $100,000. IOS is an Illinois company that specializes in designing entry-level and promotional examinations for fire and police departments. In order to fit the examinations to the New Haven Department, IOS began the test-design process by performing job analyses to identify the tasks, knowledge, skills, and abilities that are essential for the lieutenant and captain positions. IOS representatives interviewed incumbent captains and lieutenants and their supervisors. They rode with and observed other on-duty officers. Using information from those interviews and ride-alongs, IOS wrote job-analysis questionnaires and administered them to most of the incumbent battalion chiefs, captains, and lieutenants in the Department. At every stage of the job analyses, IOS, by deliberate choice, oversampled minority firefighters to ensure that the results—which IOS would use to develop the examinations—would not unintentionally favor white candidates.

With the job-analysis information in hand, IOS developed the written examinations to measure the candidates’ job-related knowledge. For each test, IOS compiled a list of training manuals, Department procedures, and other materials to use as sources for the test questions. IOS presented the proposed sources to the New Haven fire chief and assistant fire chief for their approval. Then, using the approved sources, IOS drafted a multiple-choice test for each position. Each test had 100 questions, as required by SB rules, and was written below a 10th-grade reading level. After IOS prepared the tests, the City opened a 3-month study period. It gave candidates a list that identified the source material for the questions, including the specific chapters from which the questions were taken.

IOS developed the oral examinations as well. These concentrated on job skills and abilities. Using the job analysis information, IOS wrote hypothetical situations to test incident-command skills, firefighting tactics, interpersonal skills, leadership, and management ability, among other things. Candidates would be presented with these hypotheticals and asked to respond before a panel of three assessors.

IOS assembled a pool of 30 assessors who were superior in rank to the positions being tested. At the City’s insistence (because of controversy surrounding previous examinations), all the assessors came from outside Connecticut. IOS submitted the assessors’ resumes to City officials for approval. They were battalion chiefs, assistant chiefs, and chiefs from departments of similar sizes to New Haven’s throughout the country. Sixty-six percent of the panelists were minorities, and each of the nine three-member assessment panels contained two minority members. IOS trained the panelists for several hours on the day before it administered the examinations, teaching them how to score the candidates’ responses consistently using checklists of desired criteria.

[billvon 3,076]

>Do you honestly believe that this examination was slanted against minority
>candidates?

I don't know.

Are you 100% certain it was not?

[redlegphi 0]

Quote

http://www.reason.com/news/show/133138.html

From your link, this is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say:

""The city did the right thing," New Haven Corporation Counsel Victor Bolden told The Los Angeles Times. "Someone was going to be disappointed, and we could be sued either way." He's certainly right about that last part. Under Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, business practices that have an "adverse impact" on members of one particular race are illegal except when those practices are demonstrably "job related" and "consistent with business necessity.""

Also, the Reason Foundation is apparently arguing that intent should matter in the decision. Basically, if the test shows disparity but the creators of the test didn't mean it to, then it's all cool. That can certainly be there opinion, but the precedent of the law says it doesn't matter what the intent is, it matters what the results are and if those results are directly related to the ability to do the job or not.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Do you honestly believe that this examination was slanted against minority candidates?

Since it wasn't created by a wise, Latina woman...obviously!!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706