Concealed Guns in Bars OK in Arizona

[rickjump1 0]

In my state, this is a no no so we compare ammo in the bar and weapons in the parking area. Never thought much about carrying in a bar until this article....Arizona moves to allow concealed guns in bars
Associated Press Writer – Sun Jun 28, 12:26 pm ET
PHOENIX – There was a time in the Wild West that cowboys had to check their guns before they could pull up a bar stool for a drink — rules that protected against the saloon gunfights that came to define the frontier era in places like Arizona.

But a bill moving through the Arizona Legislature has some bar owners fearful that the state is turning back the clock to the Old West. Lawmakers are considering a bill that would allow anyone with a concealed-weapons permit to bring a handgun into bars and restaurants serving alcohol.

The bill gives bars discretion to keep gun-toting patrons out, and anyone with a weapon would not be allowed to drink. But the bill has angered bar owners who believe booze and guns are a recipe for disaster.

"This might be one of the stupidest things that I have heard of," said Mike Nelson, who owns Pomeroy's bar in Phoenix and plans to post a sign on his front door outlawing guns in his bar as soon as possible. "Can you think of a single reason guns and alcohol should be intertwined?"

The bill is part of a nationwide push by the National Rifle Association. Georgia passed a similar law in 2008, as did Tennessee earlier this year in becoming the 40th state to allow bar or restaurant patrons to carry guns.

"These laws are common sense," said NRA spokeswoman Rachel Parsons. "Restaurants are not immune to criminal activity. Law-abiding people — regardless of whether they're in restaurants, cars or homes — they should be able to protect themselves against criminal attack."

One of the bill's sponsors, Republican Rep. John Kavanagh, said it's about time Arizona passes such a law, and that the most important thing is that people carrying guns into bars aren't allowed to drink.

"You don't want intoxicated people with weapons, and this bill continues the prohibition against drinking and carrying," said Kavanagh, a retired police officer in New York and New Jersey. "What is the problem with having a gun in a delicatessen where someone is having a beer with their pastrami two tables away?"

The law would only apply to people with concealed-weapons permits because lawmakers say that type of gun owner has to pass a background check and take an eight-hour course to get their permits, and are therefore safer. More than 127,000 Arizonans have concealed-weapons permits, according to the Arizona Department of Public Safety.

Arizonans are also allowed to openly carry guns — on a belt or holster, for example. But those people would still not be allowed in bars or restaurants serving alcohol if they're armed.

The bill has been approved by the Senate and is now before the House; Republican Gov. Jan Brewer would still have to OK it.

Marc Peagler, owner of the Silver Spur Saloon Restaurant in Cave Creek outside Phoenix, said he's in favor of the legislation and sees some marketing potential in it.

"I look at it this way — let's just say for a moment you're a crook or a thief," Peagler said. "Are you going to break into a place where you know that there might be 10 to 15 people who are armed? I wouldn't do that."

Peagler, a gun owner himself, said people with concealed-weapons permits aren't people to be concerned about.

"People who carry concealed weapons for the most part are your general law-abiding citizens, and the people who are going to break the law are going to do it no matter what laws we have out there," he said. "If somebody has been drinking and they have a weapon in the car, they're just going to go out and get it."

Frank Murray, owner of Seamus McCaffrey's Irish Pub & Restaurant in downtown Phoenix, said he opposes the law and will prohibit his customers from coming in armed.

"It's kind of like the Wild West days," he said. "We've got enough nuts out on the street walking around with guns. We don't need them in places with alcohol and families."

The Arizona Licensed Beverage Association threw its support behind the bill after some compromises were made this week. The Arizona Restaurant Association has taken a neutral stance, but in previous years came out against most bills that would have allowed guns in bars and restaurants with alcohol.

This year's bill is one of several measures loosening gun laws moving through the Arizona Legislature.

In May, the House overwhelmingly approved a bill that would permit gun owners to keep a weapon out of sight in a locked vehicle in a parking lot or garage. That would override employers that ban weapons on their property.

Last week, a Senate committee approved a bill that would allow Arizonans to carry concealed weapons without state permits, despite objections from law enforcement.

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Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[FallingOsh 0]

I'm a pretty huge supporter of the second ammendment but I can't see any good from mixing bars with guns. The only thing making this marginally acceptable is that those carrying wouldn't be allowed to drink. I can see why people would want to be able to carry in a restaurant that serves booze if they're just going in to eat. Carrying in a straight up bar is just asking for trouble.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[Lefty 0]

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The bill gives bars discretion to keep gun-toting patrons out, and anyone with a weapon would not be allowed to drink.

So...does anyone have a non-emotional, non-"please won't someone think of the children" objection to this?

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The bill is part of a nationwide push by the National Rifle Association. Georgia passed a similar law in 2008, as did Tennessee earlier this year in becoming the 40th state to allow bar or restaurant patrons to carry guns.

The 40th state? So this bill is not a new concept. If there really were legitimate objections to passing this bill based on a sharp increase in saloon shootings and midnight showdowns in the other states, I think the AP would have mentioned them.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[rickjump1 0]

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I'm a pretty huge supporter of the second ammendment but I can't see any good from mixing bars with guns. The only thing making this marginally acceptable is that those carrying wouldn't be allowed to drink. I can see why people would want to be able to carry in a restaurant that serves booze if they're just going in to eat. Carrying in a straight up bar is just asking for trouble.

I agree. If you are drinking, don't carry. Have a designated non-drinker if you don't feel safe.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[rickjump1 0]

I hope this might change the law here. Good chance; I think.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I do not see a problem with CCL holders being allowed.

They are held to such high scrutiny that I would say none to few are going to risk their rights ans well as jail time for consuming alcohol while armed.


The criminals already carry in bars and everywhere else they please,

[rickjump1 0]

I agree.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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I do not see a problem with CCL holders being allowed.

They are held to such high scrutiny that I would say none to few are going to risk their rights ans well as jail time for consuming alcohol while armed.


The criminals already carry in bars and everywhere else they please,

One thing you don't see is how low the crime rate is among carry permit holders.
Something like 4% of all citizens have a felony record. Something like 15% have a misdemeanor record. (These figures are from memory, and may be wrong - feel free to correct me)

Less than one half of one percent of carry permit holders are arrested (and this includes arrests after self-defense actions where no charges are ever filed).
It isn't a bunch of cowboys "hootin' and hollerin" and shooting up the street as so many of the anti crowd portray it.

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING IS SARCASM!
I'm surprised the liberals haven't insisted that everyone be issued a carry permit. Since that demographic has such a low crime rate, putting everyone in that group should eliminate crime, right?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[SkydiveJack 1]

The law here in Michigan states that you can not carry in an establishment that makes more than half of it’s income from the sale of alcohol. So a bar that doesn’t sell food is off limits. However, you can carry in a TGIFridays, Outback Steak House, Applebees, ect, because supposedly they make more from the food they sell even though they have full bars.

The trick here is that you can not have an alcohol volume of more than 0.02 and carry. So you can go into an establishment that serves food and alcohol but you really can’t drink.

What is the max. alcohol limit in Arizona?

[rickjump1 0]

Don't know, I live in Montana.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Ron 10]

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but I can't see any good from mixing bars with guns.

I don't see any harm. You would not be allowed to drink, and open carry would not be allowed.

So no one would know you have a weapon, and you are not allowed to drink... If you trust anyone to carry, you should trust them to carry almost anywhere.

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Carrying in a straight up bar is just asking for trouble.

No more than just being there, IMO. People keep claiming that CCW will bring blood into the streets....Yet they keep being proven wrong. I suspect this is another example.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,120]

>The law here in Michigan states that you can not carry in an establishment
>that makes more than half of it’s income from the sale of alcohol. So a bar that
>doesn’t sell food is off limits. However, you can carry in a TGIFridays, Outback
>Steak House, Applebees, ect, because supposedly they make more from the food
>they sell even though they have full bars.

That seems like a pretty good compromise.

[rhaig 0]

Quote

>The law here in Michigan states that you can not carry in an establishment
>that makes more than half of it’s income from the sale of alcohol. So a bar that
>doesn’t sell food is off limits. However, you can carry in a TGIFridays, Outback
>Steak House, Applebees, ect, because supposedly they make more from the food
>they sell even though they have full bars.

That seems like a pretty good compromise.

same in TX. Anyplace that sells alcohol is required to post one of two signs. Both provided by the TABC (TX alcoholic bev. commission). Either the 51% sign (has a LARGE "51%" on it with wording prohibiting concealed carry) or the other one that simply says something along the lines of "unlicensed carry of a weapon on these premises is prohibited".

--
Rob

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

>The law here in Michigan states that you can not carry in an establishment
>that makes more than half of it’s income from the sale of alcohol. So a bar that
>doesn’t sell food is off limits. However, you can carry in a TGIFridays, Outback
>Steak House, Applebees, ect, because supposedly they make more from the food
>they sell even though they have full bars.

That seems like a pretty good compromise.

same in TX. Anyplace that sells alcohol is required to post one of two signs. Both provided by the TABC (TX alcoholic bev. commission). Either the 51% sign (has a LARGE "51%" on it with wording prohibiting concealed carry) or the other one that simply says something along the lines of "unlicensed carry of a weapon on these premises is prohibited".

You mean the "30-06" sign? (Gotta love that irony!) So far as I know, that is the only other LEGAL sign banning carry in an establishment. Printing up a bunch of "No Guns Allowed" signs on your LaserJet doesn't cut it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

>The law here in Michigan states that you can not carry in an establishment
>that makes more than half of it’s income from the sale of alcohol. So a bar that
>doesn’t sell food is off limits. However, you can carry in a TGIFridays, Outback
>Steak House, Applebees, ect, because supposedly they make more from the food
>they sell even though they have full bars.

That seems like a pretty good compromise.

Why?

The CCW holder could choose to (illegally) drink in either establishment. A criminal could choose to bring a gun in to either as well. And people are equally as likely to get shitfaced and behave badly.

All you've done is declare another unarmed victims zone.

[billvon 3,120]

>The CCW holder could choose to (illegally) drink in either establishment.

Yes, and indeed they could choose to carry a weapon and sit in a park and drink heavily.

But if the primary purpose of an establishment is dining, it is reasonable to expect that a CCW holder would go there to eat. Likewise, if the primary purpose of an establishment is drinking, it is reasonable to expect that most people who go there, go there to drink.

[mnealtx 0]

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it is reasonable to expect that most people who go there, go there to drink.

And then get into vehicles capable of doing MUCH MORE damage than a handgun bullet and drive off.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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But if the primary purpose of an establishment is dining, it is reasonable to expect that a CCW holder would go there to eat. Likewise, if the primary purpose of an establishment is drinking, it is reasonable to expect that most people who go there, go there to drink.

Hardy, and especially not if the determinant is the 51% threshold.

People often go to a bar to see a game - these sports bars can be 90% drinking, they can be mostly drinking with a couple food items, a full pub menu, or an actual restaurant. People will choose which one based on the TV amenities.

And then lots of people go to socialize. The drinking is not essential.

Your line of thinking only seems reasonable if you reject the premise of the CCW. Otherwise, it's just stupid, since you are creating victim zones. And the overwhelming amount of data in the states that have converted show this to be silliness . CCW holders do not represent a threat. One can argue for hours if there is really a great benefit, but it's quite clear that there is not a negative.

[billvon 3,120]

>And then get into vehicles capable of doing MUCH MORE damage than a
>handgun bullet and drive off.

Exactly. People go to bars to drink; it is reasonable to expect even people who should not drink (CCW holders and drivers) will drink as well. Sadly, history supports that drivers cannot seem to avoid drinking excessively when at bars; it may be unreasonable to expect to hold CCW holders to an even higher standard.

[mnealtx 0]

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>And then get into vehicles capable of doing MUCH MORE damage than a
>handgun bullet and drive off.

Exactly. People go to bars to drink; it is reasonable to expect even people who should not drink (CCW holders and drivers) will drink as well. Sadly, history supports that drivers cannot seem to avoid drinking excessively when at bars; it may be unreasonable to expect to hold CCW holders to an even higher standard.

You mean the 'even higher standard' that they are ALREADY held to?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,120]

>You mean the 'even higher standard' that they are ALREADY held to?

Yes. Specifically, the zero tolerance part of the law. Drivers cannot even hold themselves to only three or four drinks despite education, testing, massive financial and legal penalties for drinking and driving, and a media blitz on the evils of drinking and driving. Expecting that a lesser effort would result in much better results is a bit optimistic.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>You mean the 'even higher standard' that they are ALREADY held to?

Yes. Specifically, the zero tolerance part of the law. Drivers cannot even hold themselves to only three or four drinks despite education, testing, massive financial and legal penalties for drinking and driving, and a media blitz on the evils of drinking and driving. Expecting that a lesser effort would result in much better results is a bit optimistic.

Most people in fact do seem to be able to hold to this standard. And the standard for CCW grants is higher than the average American.

[billvon 3,120]

>Most people in fact do seem to be able to hold to this standard.

Just as most drivers can handle such a standard. However, drunk driving is still a big problem.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>Most people in fact do seem to be able to hold to this standard.

Just as most drivers can handle such a standard. However, drunk driving is still a big problem.

but drunk shooting by permit holders has not, to date, shown any evidence of being a problem.

[Nightingale 0]

*Not legal advice, just my observations. If you want legal advice, consult a firearms attorney licensed to practice in Arizona*

If you have a CCW, you can bring a concealed weapon into places that serve alcohol in California, provided their primary purpose isn't serving alcohol and the person carrying the weapon doesn't consume any alcohol. For example, a restaurant is okay as long as the person carrying isn't drinking, but you can't walk into a bar. This is what the law is trying to fix in Arizona. Right now, if you have a concealed weapon, you can't even walk into a sit down restaurant to eat, because they serve beer and wine. What's really curious is that you can OPEN CARRY in many of these places.

I understand wanting to keep concealed weapons out of bars. People go there mainly to get drunk. I don't like that they fail to recognize that people that go through the CCW process are statistically the most law abiding citizens in the US, and are highly unlikely to drink and carry a weapon if it is against the terms of their license. The current law that tries to keep CCW holders out of Dennys is dumb.