France to restrict burqas

[TomAiello 26]

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I bet the french police do just as good a job at protecting Islamic women as the Police department in Arizona city, Co. does in protecting 13 year old girls from being forced to marry 60 year old men. .

Ah, I see.

Since the current law isn't being enforced, we need to...make more laws?

How does that follow?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rickjump1 0]

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requiring your co-workers to fill in while you pray

Do co-workers fill in for smoking breaks for some?

How often does the "prayer break interrupting the assembly line" actually happen?

Wendy P.

It has happened in meatpacking plants:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/us/16immig.html?pagewanted=all

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[rickjump1 0]

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Nuns choose to where habits as adults, Some Islamic women are forced to where the burqa from early puberty. Nuns are not beaten or killed for not wearing their habits and can leave anytime they like without fear of violence that some Islamic women live with on a daily basis.

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Now I think most religious rituals like this are loony, but if they choose to wear such garb, then who are we (or France) to impinge on their religious rights to worship their God/Allah as they see fit?

The Islamic movement in France is just not about practicing their faith, it's about changing the country they have chosen to relocate too. From demanding the three little pigs be removed from children's textbooks to demanding the implementation of sharia law, France and it's surrounding countries are growing weary of their new residents and their inability to ASSIMILATE. look at what happened to Denmark over a couple of cartoons.

Don't forget the swine flu scare. I understand Muslims found the name repulsive and it was changed for awhile.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[billvon 3,095]

>There's a huge amount of pressure to join religious orders?

Yes. (I did go to a catholic high school.)

>and so far I haven't detected much pressure at all to join any sort of religious order.

And neither I nor my wife have felt any pressure at all to wear a burqa!

[kelpdiver 2]

One thing that struck me when I was working in London last month was the burqas everywhere. Muslims in the UK looked like the pictures coming out of the Middle East.

San Francisco/Oakland is quite different. There are a lot of muslims, but most are Black Muslims, which I think evolved out of the Civil Rights movement. Try telling a black woman she has to cover up - I dare you.

And that's probably the difference. When all women in the Muslim world get the same access to education, dress codes will become truly voluntary, and I suspect a lot less of 'sorta seen, and definitely not heard.'

[mnealtx 0]

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And neither I nor my wife have felt any pressure at all to wear a burqa!

That'd interfere with the wingsuit just a tad, wouldnt it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,095]

>That'd interfere with the wingsuit just a tad, wouldnt it?

Add a hood to an S3 and it would pass for a burqa just about anywhere.

[mnealtx 0]

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>That'd interfere with the wingsuit just a tad, wouldnt it?

Add a hood to an S3 and it would pass for a burqa just about anywhere.

Hmm...so you *have* felt the urge to wear a burka-like garment, then....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jclalor 12]

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I bet the french police do just as good a job at protecting Islamic women as the Police department in Arizona city, Co. does in protecting 13 year old girls from being forced to marry 60 year old men. .

Ah, I see.

Since the current law isn't being enforced, we need to...make more laws?

How does that follow?

To be honest, I am very conflicted with some of my post, I have usally always had an absolute hatred for a group that will beat women as they do. Is this all Muslims? obviously not, just the ones that believe in arranged marriages, honor killings, and one of the worst acts, Female circumcision, that is still performed in Europe. There are large Muslim sections just outside Paris that the police will not even enter.
WE don't need to make any new laws since it is a sovereign nation. I am excited to watch the progress that will come to France with this new law. One can not stop the march of rationalism that has been growing as the world (Western part) becomes more and more secular.

[redlegphi 0]

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I do see your point, what about outlawing the burqa until the age of 18? France did outlaw religious headwear for school children a few years back. I just believe that the place to stop superstitious behavior is with children. If children were left to adulthood to choose or deny religion we would be living in a different world.

Yes. Also why don't we make it a law that when a girl hits puberty, she has to wear a bikini. While I agree with you that superstitious behavior is ridiculous (in ALL religions) it's not my place to tell anybody how they can and can't raise their children. If a Muslim father feels that his daughter needs to wear a burqa once she hits puberty in order to protect her modesty, that's his right as a father. Once she hits 18, if he's still forcing her to wear it, then arrest his ass.

[TomAiello 26]

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Once she hits 18, if he's still forcing her to wear it, then arrest his ass.

Or sooner, if he's abusing her to enforce his dress code.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[pirana 0]

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requiring your co-workers to fill in while you pray

Do co-workers fill in for smoking breaks for some?

How often does the "prayer break interrupting the assembly line" actually happen?

Wendy P.

Every place I've ever worked in production or assembly or that kind of stuff there have been scheduled breaks to allow employees to smoke, chat, eat, drink, prey, go potty, etc.

The boss rarely seems to care what, as long as they are back on schedule. Ya gotta either shut down the line or sub in and take breaks in shifts. I've never figured out what all the ruckus is about on this topic, but admit to not investigating at all.

When I was a boss, my favorite line was "Get back to work you!" stolen from a Work In Hell cartoon plastered on my wall. (Binky and his friends, an old Matt Groening comic). It was a joke, and we all laughed a lot. I'd never make it in management again, at least not in any kind of politically correct bureacracy. The boss of bosses would have my head.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[georgerussia 0]

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I imagine I'm biased, but I still think the US Constitution strikes the best balance on these type of issues among all the "Western/modern" countries. And I'm pretty sure that most laws that would ban the wearing of burqas by adult civilian women in the US (exceptions aside, like workplace physical safety, etc.) would probably be eventually struck down as unconstitutional. And on balance, looking at the long-term big picture, I think that's more of a good thing than bad.

JFYI, a few years ago in Russia the Supreme Court had to dismiss the law some states had, which allowed taking passport photographs while wearing things like burkas (this was for internal passport only, like state ID in USA. Passports for traveling aboard always required full-face photographs).

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[jclalor 12]

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Yes. Also why don't we make it a law that when a girl hits puberty, she has to wear a bikini. While I agree with you that superstitious behavior is ridiculous (in ALL religions) it's not my place to tell anybody how they can and can't raise their children. If a Muslim father feels that his daughter needs to wear a burqa once she hits puberty in order to protect her modesty, that's his right as a father. Once she hits 18, if he's still forcing her to wear it, then arrest his ass.

[turtlespeed 226]

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> Nuns are not beaten or killed for not wearing their habits and can leave anytime
>they like without fear of violence that some Islamic women live with on a daily
>basis.

So let's pass a law against violence instead of a law against clothing.

I believe thaey have something like that - it's called "Anti-Terrorism". It is AMAZING how much a terrorist dressed up in makeup and a burqa looks just like a woman dressed up in a burqa. EXCEPT - if the thing wasn't worn, then - WOW - we could see their face.

I tell you what - If you can stop the terrorism that gave the arabs the stereotype - Burqas will be allowed again.

So go ahead and get to workl on that.

Please be sure to let us know JUST how well your ideals work saving lives that would be blown apart by terrorist acts.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

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What about dress code in workplaces?

How would you feel if you came to an appointment with a ninja?

Workplace dress code is set by the employer. The government should not be setting it, one way or the other.

Well that depends - donchathink? Isn't GM mojority owned by the Gov't now? What about banks? I think they CAN set the dress code now. Come on now Comrade, get yourself in line, now!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[turtlespeed 226]

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>There's a huge amount of pressure to join religious orders?

Yes. (I did go to a catholic high school.)

>and so far I haven't detected much pressure at all to join any sort of religious order.

And neither I nor my wife have felt any pressure at all to wear a burqa!

Have we somehow twisted the issue so far out of proportion that we have forgotten that France has OUTLAWED the burqa. It is not pressure to wear the thing, it is ILLEGAT to. OH MY! They will be forced to show their face - Oh the tragedy!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,095]

>EXCEPT - if the thing wasn't worn, then - WOW - we could see their face.

So, then ban veils, masks, hats and sunglasses if that's your worry. Get those oppressed terrorist brides out of the shadows, and keep those sunglass-wearing criminals from hiding their identity.

("Wait a minute, dude - that might affect ME! And I am only going to support stupid laws that affect other people!")

>Please be sure to let us know JUST how well your ideals work saving lives
>that would be blown apart by terrorist acts.

Probably about as well as your ideals saved all the people killed by Timothy McVeigh.

[turtlespeed 226]

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Probably about as well as your ideals saved all the people killed by Timothy McVeigh.

Wow - so an unexpected attack is the same thing as an attack that is being prepared for and attempting to be prevented. Maybe you would be happier if there were a more diversified variety of people that were terrorists so we wouldn't have sterotypes.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,095]

>Wow - so an unexpected attack is the same thing as an attack that is
>being prepared for and attempting to be prevented.

Nope. Why do you think that?

>Maybe you would be happier if there were a more diversified variety of
>people that were terrorists so we wouldn't have sterotypes.

Nope. Why do you think that?

Tell ya what. Go into any police station in the US (or France for that matter.) Look at the wanted posters. Check out how many violent criminals are wearing a hat and sunglasses, and how many are wearing burqas. Let us know what you find.

[turtlespeed 226]

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>Wow - so an unexpected attack is the same thing as an attack that is
>being prepared for and attempting to be prevented.

Nope. Why do you think that?

>>>>You are the one comparing Timothy McVey.

>Maybe you would be happier if there were a more diversified variety of
>people that were terrorists so we wouldn't have sterotypes.

Nope. Why do you think that?

>>>>Because you are against measures that help arab terrorists avoid detection and capture.

Tell ya what. Go into any police station in the US (or France for that matter.) Look at the wanted posters. Check out how many violent criminals are wearing a hat and sunglasses, and how many are wearing burqas. Let us know what you find.

As soon as you tell me how many terrorists, wearing burqas to hide their identity, got away undetected.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,095]

>As soon as you tell me how many terrorists, wearing burqas to hide their
>identity, got away undetected.

Turtle goes for the epic fail! Can't even hope to answer the question, so he asks an unanswerable one and hopes no one will notice.

[nerdgirl 0]

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>As soon as you tell me how many terrorists, wearing burqas to hide their
>identity, got away undetected.

Turtle goes for the epic fail! Can't even hope to answer the question, so he asks an unanswerable one and hopes no one will notice.

Perhaps it’s not completely unanswerable.

One can argue that any suicide/homicide bomber that successfully detonated concealed explosives did “g[e]t away undetected.” If detected, the terrorist would not have been able to execute the attack, eh? Therefore the level of successful attacks executed by individuals who used conservative Muslim dress to conceal IED or other explosives gives one a lower limit for the number that “got away undetected."

While not a burqa, abayas have been used to conceal IEDs. In 2008, there were over 30 such sucicide/homicide bombings in which explosives were concealed under abayas or other culturally-religiously obligated/encouraged/demanded dress, i.e., the “Black Moving Object” (BMO).

One individual admitted to coordinating at least 28 suicide/homicide bombings in which abayas concealed explosives.

Example of two such bombings in Iraq in 2008 that caused at least 73 deaths, which was also discussed here. There have been fewer such concealed suicide/homicide bombings this year.

It’s also been a tactic used repeatedly by Palestinian terrorists against Israel.


[smart-ass]
Perhaps getting an answer depends on who one asks, eh?
[/smart-ass]


As a civil libertarian, I dislike such restrictions on choice in personal dress. While I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that there is a rash or severe threat of female terrorists in France using conservative Muslim dress to conceal explosives and I don’t know enough about the level of indoctrination/control of Muslim women in France by Muslim men (unlike other parts of the world), there is an operational security issue that one can consider. To pretend that it is not an operational security issue in parts of the world (again, I'm doubtful France) is lack of knowledge or denial.

Is there ever a valid reason to restrict such clothing? If concealing with abaya or burqa is an established terrorist tactic, how many dead people does one need to have before such restrictions are warranted? Some may say, it doesn’t matter. Others might say one is all it takes. I’m inclined to something less at either end of the spectrum. But it is a legitimate, imo, and interesting question w/r/t what civil liberties are groups of people willing to give up in order to increase security/decrease risk.

Also, there is also some irony, I think, that in the areas in which women are either required by law (e.g., areas under Sharia law) or induced/compelled by threat of punishment or death if they are regarded as dressing immodestly (not a lot free choice there, eh?), the basic human rights and civil liberties of half the population are often severely restricted explicitly or tacitly.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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One thing that struck me when I was working in London last month was the burqas everywhere.

Were they really burqas? Or were they abayas, hijabs, or other conservative Islamic clothing? I suspect you were just using 'burqa' as short-hand/subsitution for all conservative Islamic dress.

The number of women I saw in conservative Islamic dress in Brussels earlier this month was unexpected. I don't recall seeing any burqas.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[downwardspiral 0]

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One thing that struck me when I was working in London last month was the burqas everywhere.

Were they really burqas? Or were they abayas, hijabs, or other conservative Islamic clothing? I suspect you were just using 'burqa' as short-hand/subsitution for all conservative Islamic dress.

The number of women I saw in conservative Islamic dress in Brussels earlier this month was unexpected. I don't recall seeing any burqas.

/Marg

Thank you for the education on conservatice islamic dress. In a weird and fetishtastic way...their dress is kinda sexy.

www.FourWheelerHB.com