France to restrict burqas

[turtlespeed 226]

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Nuns choose to where habits as adults, Some Islamic women are forced to where the burqa from early puberty. Nuns are not beaten or killed for not wearing their habits and can leave anytime they like without fear of violence that some Islamic women live with on a daily basis.

Outlawing the burqa is attempting to treat a symptom of the issue instead of addressing the issue itself. If France wants to prosecute men who beat or kill their wives/daughters/whatever for not wearing a burqa, more power to them. If they want to prosecute men for forcibly keep a woman from leaving the home without a burqa on, more power to them. However, believe it or not, there are some Islamic women who want to wear it, much like their are some Catholic women who choose to wear a nun's habit. They believe doing so brings them closer to God/Allah. Now I think most religious rituals like this are loony, but if they choose to wear such garb, then who are we (or France) to impinge on their religious rights to worship their God/Allah as they see fit?

You don't know? It's FRANCE . . . DUH - Der De Der . . . Come ON . . .

Oh - and Bill, THIS is why I am glad France did this, because it is just one more stupid, idiotic, moronic, pointless, yet predictably consistent, posturing that France does that we can make fun of, we were running a little low on material.

The sad thing is that, because of this, there may be a marked increase in terrorist bombings iun France now.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[redlegphi 0]

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The sad thing is that, because of this, there may be a marked increase in terrorist bombings iun France now.

That I will agree to. This is the kind of thing that will further alienate France's Muslim community. If people feel like their nation is out to get them, they don't tend to feel a lot of loyalty to that nation.

[jclalor 12]

I do see your point, what about outlawing the burqa until the age of 18? France did outlaw religious headwear for school children a few years back. I just believe that the place to stop superstitious behavior is with children. If children were left to adulthood to choose or deny religion we would be living in a different world.

[billvon 3,095]

> Nuns are not beaten or killed for not wearing their habits and can leave anytime
>they like without fear of violence that some Islamic women live with on a daily
>basis.

So let's pass a law against violence instead of a law against clothing.

[TomAiello 26]

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What about dress code in workplaces?

How would you feel if you came to an appointment with a ninja?

Workplace dress code is set by the employer. The government should not be setting it, one way or the other.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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Here, we're talking about the rights of adults to wear particular garments. It seems to be that it's rather paternalistic to decide that they can't wear something because it's "bad" for them. Shouldn't they be allowed to decide for themselves what they want to wear?

I agree with you, but doesn't the US do the same thing? Women aren't free to wear what they want and are restricted more than males are.

I don't think that the US ought to govern dress by law either. I'm not familiar with any laws doing so. Can you point them out for me?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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... it only applies to breasts, not the rest of the body.

Hang on...there's some sort of federal law about this? Can you give me a reference so I can look it up?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Andy9o8 2]

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This is the kind of thing that will further alienate France's Muslim community.

Alienated Muslims have already been spotted.

[billvon 3,095]

>The difference here is that the nun doesn't have to stay a nun, she can leave if
>the rules she has chosen and sworn to follow become distasteful to her.

Sorta like a woman can take off a burqa if she wants.

[TomAiello 26]

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>Nuns for the most part are not forced by fathers, husbands and such to wear a habit.

Uh, dude, they are indeed forced by the Catholic Church to wear habits.

In much the same way that soldiers are "forced" to wear uniforms.

They choose, voluntarily and with no compulsion, to join (the military or church order) that has such a dress code. If they greatly object to the dress code, they shouldn't join in the first place.

As far as I know, no one is forcing women to become nuns. Can you provide an example of such a thing happening in the US?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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Nuns choose to where habits as adults, Some Islamic women are forced to where the burqa from early puberty. Nuns are not beaten or killed for not wearing their habits and can leave anytime they like without fear of violence that some Islamic women live with on a daily basis.

In France, or the USA? I'm pretty sure that beating or killing a woman for failing to wear a burqa is illegal in France, just as it would be in the USA, but perhaps I've missed something. Can you reference the law that allows such beating and killing?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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I do see your point, what about outlawing the burqa until the age of 18?

The right to raise one's children according to one's beliefs is pretty fundamental. I'd be extremely uncomfortable if our government (in the USA) started making blanket proscriptions like that. In school, that's one thing, and I can understand if something interferes with the schools mission. But regulating what your children wear at home? What's next, requiring you to feed them a particular sort of ethnic cuisine?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Andy9o8 2]

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... it only applies to breasts, not the rest of the body.

Hang on...there's some sort of federal law about this? Can you give me a reference so I can look it up?

Not Federal - state. The "indecent exposure" statutes of all or almost all states in the US, and/or caselaw interpreting them, overwhelmingly deem most public exposure of the aureola/nipple area of a post-pubescent female to be unlawful. (Typical modern exceptions: breast-feeding children, etc.) Most (although possibly not all; I'm not sure) women who have challenged this in court on "equal protection" grounds have lost.

If my wife were part of this conversation, she'd say "Don't get me started," because this is exactly the kind of shit that really gets her pissed (i.e., at men).

[jclalor 12]

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Nuns choose to where habits as adults, Some Islamic women are forced to where the burqa from early puberty. Nuns are not beaten or killed for not wearing their habits and can leave anytime they like without fear of violence that some Islamic women live with on a daily basis.

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Now I think most religious rituals like this are loony, but if they choose to wear such garb, then who are we (or France) to impinge on their religious rights to worship their God/Allah as they see fit?

The Islamic movement in France is just not about practicing their faith, it's about changing the country they have chosen to relocate too. From demanding the three little pigs be removed from children's textbooks to demanding the implementation of sharia law, France and it's surrounding countries are growing weary of their new residents and their inability to ASSIMILATE. look at what happened to Denmark over a couple of cartoons.

[TomAiello 26]

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Not Federal - state. The "indecent exposure" statutes of all or almost all states in the US, and/or caselaw interpreting them, overwhelmingly deem most public exposure of the aureola/nipple area of a post-pubescent female to be unlawful. (Typical modern exceptions: breast-feeding children, etc.) Most (although possibly not all; I'm not sure) women who have challenged this in court on "equal protection" grounds have lost.

Ok. I guess I didn't know that. Sounds pretty lame to me. Indecent exposure ought to be based on the same standards as porn (i.e. "prurient sexual interest"). Exposure without intention to arouse certainly should not be banned. Even exposure with intention to arouse I'd have to think a lot about.

When I was in college, I managed a swimming pool. We once had an incident where a woman was swimming topless and another patron complained. I sent the issue up the chain (after the fact) and was told that there was nothing we could do to stop the toplessness. But I dunno, I wasn't looking at the law at the time, that was the business of someone further along who supposedly consulted the lawyers.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Andy9o8 2]

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Ok. I guess I didn't know that. Sounds pretty lame to me. Indecent exposure ought to be based on the same standards as porn (i.e. "prurient sexual interest"). Exposure without intention to arouse certainly should not be banned. Even exposure with intention to arouse I'd have to think a lot about.

A person urinating or defecating in public could probably also be charged under most jurisdictions' indecent exposure statutes. I've seen that a bunch of times in my career. That, too, is presumably conduct without intention to arouse (Bonfire-esque context excluded, of course).

[rickjump1 0]

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in saudi a woman is not even allowed to drive a car, i highly doubt an f-15..

She was in the US Air Force. Maybe she was flying tankers?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[jclalor 12]

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I do see your point, what about outlawing the burqa until the age of 18?

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The right to raise one's children according to one's beliefs is pretty fundamental. I'd be extremely uncomfortable if our government (in the USA) started making blanket proscriptions like that. In school, that's one thing, and I can understand if something interferes with the schools mission. But regulating what your children wear at home? What's next, requiring you to feed them a particular sort of ethnic cuisine?

I do believe the right to raise your child as you see fit is a fundamental right, to a point. I also believe as I have stated that religion only propagates because it is inoculated into the very young. With out this, religion will falter and the world will be much better off when decisions are based on science and rational thought, and not the superstitious beliefs of the middle ages.

[jclalor 12]

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In France, or the USA? I'm pretty sure that beating or killing a woman for failing to wear a burqa is illegal in France, just as it would be in the USA, but perhaps I've missed something. Can you reference the law that allows such beating and killing?

[rickjump1 0]

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The sad thing is that, because of this, there may be a marked increase in terrorist bombings iun France now.

That I will agree to. This is the kind of thing that will further alienate France's Muslim community. If people feel like their nation is out to get them, they don't tend to feel a lot of loyalty to that nation.

Terrorist bombings? Time to go home. I think the Aussies had right when the PM reminded Muslims that they can always go back home.

What about terrorists dressed as women wearing burqas?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Not Federal - state. The "indecent exposure" statutes of all or almost all states in the US, and/or caselaw interpreting them, overwhelmingly deem most public exposure of the aureola/nipple area of a post-pubescent female to be unlawful. (Typical modern exceptions: breast-feeding children, etc.) Most (although possibly not all; I'm not sure) women who have challenged this in court on "equal protection" grounds have lost.

Around here, it's generally held that nudity without sexual behavior is not illegal. Berkeley tried to redefine the violation as an infraction to skip any due process during the 'Naked Guy' era, but don't think that flew either.

[mnealtx 0]

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in saudi a woman is not even allowed to drive a car, i highly doubt an f-15..

She was in the US Air Force. Maybe she was flying tankers?

Nope... Warthog driver.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,095]

>As far as I know, no one is forcing women to become nuns.

Correct. Nor is anyone forcing women to wear burqas, at least in France and the US. (Although, as in religious orders, there is often a huge amount of pressure to do so.)

[rehmwa 2]

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I do believe the right to raise your child as you see fit is a fundamental right, to a point. I also believe as I have stated that religion only propagates because it is inoculated into the very young. With out this, religion will falter and the world will be much better off when decisions are based on science and rational thought, and not the superstitious beliefs of the middle ages.

I think religion is nuts also. But I feel much more strongly about protecting people's rights to choose what they believe in from positions like the one above. You are actually advocating indoctrinating children in beliefs contrary to their parents' wishes. I find that abhorrent.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TomAiello 26]

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>As far as I know, no one is forcing women to become nuns.

Correct. Nor is anyone forcing women to wear burqas, at least in France and the US. (Although, as in religious orders, there is often a huge amount of pressure to do so.)

There's a huge amount of pressure to join religious orders?

Once in, sure, there's pressure. But the decision to join is made by an adult, and so far I haven't detected much pressure at all to join any sort of religious order. Perhaps my life is just totally atypical...

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com