redlegphi 0 #126 June 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteHaving a "show" apology where none of the people doing the apologizing had any real responsibility in the unjust act is a sham. No it's not. See posts #s 101 and 123. Fuck it, I'll even reiterate it so you don't have to scan back up to those posts. It's not about the actions of any individual people, it's about the actions of the separate entity known as the US government. Nancy Pelosi isn't apologizing, the government is. If it would help, just think of the government like a guy named Frank. Frank is apologizing for his actions against African-Americans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #127 June 25, 2009 QuoteIf it would help, just think of the government like a guy named Frank. Frank is apologizing for his actions against African-Americans. Except that you, I, and even Nancy Pelosi are all part of "Frank."-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #128 June 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteHaving a "show" apology where none of the people doing the apologizing had any real responsibility in the unjust act is a sham. No it's not. See posts #s 101 and 123. Fuck it, I'll even reiterate it so you don't have to scan back up to those posts. It's not about the actions of any individual people, it's about the actions of the separate entity known as the US government. Nancy Pelosi isn't apologizing, the government is. If it would help, just think of the government like a guy named Frank. Frank is apologizing for his actions against African-Americans. Sorry, I don't buy this "country apology" thing. If a country did something wrong, it makes amends by doing it right. Apologies are personal acts, governments shouldn't have the right to make that call for its populace. An apology only has real meaning if it comes from the heart of the person responsible for the injustice. Besides, do you have any idea how much inhumanity to man has gone on over time? Take this to its logical conclusion and governments won't have time to do anything else but apologize. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #129 June 25, 2009 I don't understand the people who have a problem with this. Apologies don't hurt the people who offer them and have the potential to make the recipients feel better. The only logical opposition to such a gesture would come from those who don't consider our collective actions in this matter regrettable. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dutton 0 #130 June 25, 2009 What are "collective actions"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #131 June 25, 2009 QuoteWhat are "collective actions"? Actions carried out by a group as a whole. As opposed to individual actions. For example, in this case the collective action is the US government allowing slavery to continue legally. An individual action would be a plantation owner purchasing a slave. In the discussed resolution, the Congress is apologizing for the collective actions of the US government, not the individual actions of individual slave owners who are pretty much all dead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #132 June 25, 2009 QuoteIn the discussed resolution, the Congress is apologizing for the collective actions of the US government, not the individual actions of individual slave owners who are pretty much all dead. In the interest of diligence, I just checked. They're all dead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #133 June 26, 2009 QuoteI don't understand the people who have a problem with this. Apologies don't hurt the people who offer them and have the potential to make the recipients feel better. The only logical opposition to such a gesture would come from those who don't consider our collective actions in this matter regrettable. What a statement. Everyone who disagrees with you thinks that slavery was okay. How desperate can you get? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #134 June 26, 2009 Quote Quote I don't understand the people who have a problem with this. Apologies don't hurt the people who offer them and have the potential to make the recipients feel better. The only logical opposition to such a gesture would come from those who don't consider our collective actions in this matter regrettable. What a statement. Everyone who disagrees with you thinks that slavery was okay. How desperate can you get? Perhaps you should read it again, because that's not what I said. And no, I'm not desperate...that would be illogical. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #135 June 26, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I don't understand the people who have a problem with this. Apologies don't hurt the people who offer them and have the potential to make the recipients feel better. The only logical opposition to such a gesture would come from those who don't consider our collective actions in this matter regrettable. What a statement. Everyone who disagrees with you thinks that slavery was okay. How desperate can you get? Perhaps you should read it again, because that's not what I said. And no, I'm not desperate...that would be illogical. Right. And the only logical conclusion I can derive from your highlighted statement is that you're unwilling to address what I said before: Quote An apology only has real meaning if it comes from the heart of the person responsible for the injustice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #136 June 26, 2009 The government is capable of doing six types of things... 1) Things that accomplish good and are expensive 2) Things that accomplish good and are really expensive 3) Things that accomplish bad and are expensive 4) Things that accomplish bad and are really expensive 5) Things that accomplish nothing and are expensive 6) Things that accomplish nothing and are really expensive I think the disagreement here is whether this was a number 1 or a number 5. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #137 June 26, 2009 Rewrite of Number 3 - Things that make a good sound bite and for a few of them are "intended" to accomplish something good, but really make things worse and are really expensive I contend Number 3 constitutes 90% of the output of the US Government The other 10% involves cheese whiz and dried fruit ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #138 June 26, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote I don't understand the people who have a problem with this. Apologies don't hurt the people who offer them and have the potential to make the recipients feel better. The only logical opposition to such a gesture would come from those who don't consider our collective actions in this matter regrettable. What a statement. Everyone who disagrees with you thinks that slavery was okay. How desperate can you get? Perhaps you should read it again, because that's not what I said. And no, I'm not desperate...that would be illogical. Right. And the only logical conclusion I can derive from your highlighted statement is that you're unwilling to address what I said before: Quote An apology only has real meaning if it comes from the heart of the person responsible for the injustice. You don't think a leader, figurehead, board of directors, or representative can honestly apologize for the actions or errors of the populace/company/group? And even if they can't, how would their attempt harm you? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #139 June 26, 2009 QuoteBesides, do you have any idea how much inhumanity to man has gone on over time? Take this to its logical conclusion and governments won't have time to do anything else but apologize. Take that to its logical conclusion and the result is world peace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #140 June 26, 2009 QuoteQuoteBesides, do you have any idea how much inhumanity to man has gone on over time? Take this to its logical conclusion and governments won't have time to do anything else but apologize. Take that to its logical conclusion and the result is world peace. at least it'll slow them down in taxing and spending and bailouts and nonsense and...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 2 #141 June 27, 2009 Quote Quote An apology only has real meaning if it comes from the heart of the person responsible for the injustice. You don't think a leader, figurehead, board of directors, or representative can honestly apologize for the actions or errors of the populace/company/group? And even if they can't, how would their attempt harm you? To the degree you abstract an apology from the person who is directly responsible, you diminish its value. Why would an apology even matter if the person apologizing had nothing to do with the bad act? And when we're talking about apologizing for something that occurred before any of us were born, it's even more ridiculous. So no, I don't believe Reid, Pelosi, et al should be able to apologize for slavery on behalf of the entire country. A genuine, heartfelt apology for a non-trivial offense is a rare and precious thing. A sham apology like this one, clearly politically motivated, diminishes us all. Its main effect is to desensitize people to apologies in general and induce a cynical response when a real one comes along. The politicians have already done that very thing to politics itself. They should leave it at that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #142 June 27, 2009 This might work out for me: If I fart in the Twin Otter, are ALL the other skydivers in the plane collectively responsible? Shouldn't they all issue an apology? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #143 June 27, 2009 QuoteA formal motion of apology On 9 December 1999 Liverpool City Council passed a formal motion apologising for the City's part in the slave trade. It was unanimously agreed that Liverpool acknowledges its responsibility for its involvement in three centuries of the slave trade. The City Council has made an unreserved apology for Liverpool's involvement and the continual effect of slavery on Liverpool's Black communities. http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/ism/srd/liverpool.aspxstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #144 June 27, 2009 Quote This might work out for me: If I fart in the Twin Otter, are ALL the other skydivers in the plane collectively responsible? Shouldn't they all issue an apology? It might benefit you in other ways too. A few years ago back at Archway I was load organizing and I screwed up the spot -- pretty bad. We spotted ourselves out of a King Air at the time. Of course, notionally everyone is responsible for their own decision to exit the aircraft and not depend on the person spotting or the green light. I apologized and bought the folks on the jump with me jump tickets. Partially it was my pride for having screwed up the spot. Luckily it was a 6-way, iirc, which made it even more embarrasing to me to screw up (Iirc, the 2-tandems asked for a go around .. don't remember what happened to the freeflyers ), and jump tickets were a lot cheaper then. One of the guys on that jump, DaveO, used to post on dz.com. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #145 June 27, 2009 Thank ya all for the cool discussion in this thread. Not sure if I agree with you or not ... but ya's made me think about the ideas, actions, and policy in new ways. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,088 #146 June 27, 2009 >If I fart in the Twin Otter, are ALL the other skydivers in the plane >collectively responsible? I blame myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #147 June 28, 2009 QuoteQuote Quote An apology only has real meaning if it comes from the heart of the person responsible for the injustice. You don't think a leader, figurehead, board of directors, or representative can honestly apologize for the actions or errors of the populace/company/group? And even if they can't, how would their attempt harm you? To the degree you abstract an apology from the person who is directly responsible, you diminish its value. Why would an apology even matter if the person apologizing had nothing to do with the bad act? And when we're talking about apologizing for something that occurred before any of us were born, it's even more ridiculous. So no, I don't believe Reid, Pelosi, et al should be able to apologize for slavery on behalf of the entire country. A genuine, heartfelt apology for a non-trivial offense is a rare and precious thing. A sham apology like this one, clearly politically motivated, diminishes us all. Its main effect is to desensitize people to apologies in general and induce a cynical response when a real one comes along. The politicians have already done that very thing to politics itself. They should leave it at that. As I've tried to explain on numerous occasions so far, apparently to no avail, the "person" apologizing here is the Congress, not Reid or Pelosi. So yes, that "person" was alive for the actions and that "person" is responsible for the bad act. So now that "person" is apologizing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #148 June 28, 2009 Quote The Congress "apologizes to African-Americans on behalf of the people of the United States, for the wrongs committed against them and their ancestors who suffered under slavery and Jim Crow laws." I'm going out on a limb and am going to say that none of the current generation have been slaves. Maybe a few have been discriminated against and that is about it. I haven't discriminated against anybody though. I, however, have been passed over for promotion because I am not a minority under the "affirmative action" crap. I'm still waiting for my apology. Since I am white, I guess I will be dead and gone for several generations before someone apologizes to my great-great-grand kids"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #149 June 28, 2009 Quote Quote The Congress "apologizes to African-Americans on behalf of the people of the United States, for the wrongs committed against them and their ancestors who suffered under slavery and Jim Crow laws." I'm going out on a limb and am going to say that none of the current generation have been slaves. Maybe a few have been discriminated against and that is about it. I haven't discriminated against anybody though. I, however, have been passed over for promotion because I am not a minority under the "affirmative action" crap. I'm still waiting for my apology. Since I am white, I guess I will be dead and gone for several generations before someone apologizes to my great-great-grand kids 2 Points which I think I've already made but will restate: 1) While legal slavery ended in 1865, forms of slavery continued in the U.S. until around the end of WW2. So it's entirely possible that an African-American who was enslaved is still alive. 2) Even if all of the slaves are dead, the fallout from slavery affects African-American families to this day. Therefore, they get an apology too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #150 June 28, 2009 Quote I, however, have been passed over for promotion because I am not a minority under the "affirmative action" crap. I'm still waiting for my apology. Since I am white, I guess I will be dead and gone for several generations before someone apologizes to my great-great-grand kids i don't believe this story stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
