What is it about Hillary Clinton

[chuckakers 426]

And President Obama said "Hillary who?".

Funny how little of her we've seen since the rock star took office. I hear he has her travelling the world preaching gay rights. Now there's hot button issue.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[cloudseeker2001 0]

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That inspires such vituperative hatred among some? I mean, every single politician out there wants power -- it's what the game is about. I thought she was the wrong candidate for President.

But what exactly is it? There have been other women who were powerful, well-educated, arrogant, manipulative, intelligent, and many other things that would appear to describe her.

Is she really worth all the bile?

Wendy P.

She is just nasty. But, I can this......A good family friend met her and Bill when the first got married, and where good friends until the mid 80's.... so I have good inside info.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[jcd11235 0]

I think the hatred stems from a lot of things.

First, she's well educated in a nation that seems to take pride in ignorance. Before Clinton, how many First Ladies held advanced degrees?

Second, she's a lawyer. I think many people generally hold a disdain for lawyers.

She stayed with her husband after he was caught having an affair with an intern. Even as her husband can be criticized for too often having a Slick Willie, her image w/r/t family values was only strengthened when she remained committed to her marriage. I think a lot of social conservatives resent her for it.

I think she also receives a lot of resentment because her husband was such a good President compared to his contemporaries, especially fiscally. Fiscal responsibility has long been a Republican talking point, so some of those Republicans/conservatives resent President Clinton for that, and taking it out on his wife is the only option they really have.

I supported Clinton during the primaries because I thought healthcare would be the most important issue of the election. Her healthcare plan was much better than any other candidate's. In hindsight, with the economy emerging as the most critical issue, I'm glad Obama received the nomination.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[lawrocket 3]

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she's well educated in a nation that seems to take pride in ignorance.

Hmm. We liked her husband, who was well educated. We like Obama. In fact, we've generally held people with higher educations on a pedestal.

I don't think the country has a problem with people of a higher education. Rather, it's those with education accusing them of things like being "taking pride" in ignorance. Such a comment intends to demean, which is the arrogance I describe.

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Before Clinton, how many First Ladies held advanced degrees?

None. Since then both First Ladies have advanced degrees. We didn't have a problem with Laura Bush, now did we?

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Second, she's a lawyer. I think many people generally hold a disdain for lawyers.

This is true. However, so was her husband. As is Barack and his wife. And yet people still have a disdain for Hillary. As I told my wife last night during the Obama love on NBC, "Michelle Obama and Hillary are so similar in education, intelligence, and even age when Hillary was First Lady. But there is something that is genuinely warm about Michelle Obama. I really like her."

There is goes again. "Warmth." And lack thereof. How about that?

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her image w/r/t family values was only strengthened when she remained committed to her marriage

I disagree. Very few (myself included) believe that she remained "committed to her marriage" in the "family values" sense. Rather, she was "committed to her marriage" from a political leverage sense.

I'll put it this way - I'm committed to my marriage and to my family and especially to my kids. People like me view marriage as respect. If I ever find out my wife is having sex with someone else, we are through. That's it. I would not tolerate this.

What does she do in response? The public image was - nothing. Nothing. She did nothing. Recall that a decade ago, she attributed it to her husband's "weakness, not malice" caused by a childhood of psychological abuse.

Look - she was the victim in this. I get that. I understand that. I think just about anything that could be done to publically humiliate and hurt her was done. And she just took it.

I can see how tolerance of this behavior is okay with some. Not with me. I lost respect for her. Others may gain respect for her. Bill Clinton didn't respect her. If my wife cheated on me, it's over. Yes, I'd be gutted and we'd be done and coparenting our kids. If I cheat on my wife, I'm gone. I know it.

So we are different in that aspect.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jcd11235 0]

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Such a comment intends to demean, which is the arrogance I describe.

Did you plan the irony, or did it happen naturally?

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None. Since then both First Ladies have advanced degrees. We didn't have a problem with Laura Bush, now did we?

Not particularly. By the same token, we weren't uncomfortable with the intelligence level of President Clinton, so an intelligent spouse may have seemed redundant by comparison.

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And yet people still have a disdain for Hillary.

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I'll put it this way - I'm committed to my marriage and to my family and especially to my kids. People like me view marriage as respect. If I ever find out my wife is having sex with someone else, we are through. That's it. I would not tolerate this.

Yet you consider Sec. Clinton to have been committed to her marriage for political leverage instead of considering the possibility that she may just take her marital vows more seriously than you do. In other words, Thank you for illustrating my point.

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What does she do in response? The public image was - nothing. Nothing. She did nothing.

None of it was ever any business of the public. I'm certainly not going to fault her for not playing to the public spectacle/media circus. I wouldn't expect her to, unless she were trying to utilize the experience for political leverage.

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Look - she was the victim in this. I get that. I understand that. I think just about anything that could be done to publically humiliate and hurt her was done. And she just took it.

I can see how tolerance of this behavior is okay with some. Not with me. I lost respect for her. Others may gain respect for her. Bill Clinton didn't respect her. If my wife cheated on me, it's over. Yes, I'd be gutted and we'd be done and coparenting our kids. If I cheat on my wife, I'm gone. I know it.

So we are different in that aspect.

So, by your own admittance, you lost respect for her because she didn't react as you think you would. Instead, she honored her wedding vows. Again, thanks for being such a great example and helping me make my point.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[sundevil777 102]

Honored her wedding vows?????

That is really funny! Stayed married is the proper way to describe it, I think. Some will stay married when there is no more love left. At least that is what I remember being described by insiders. I don't think either has been true to their spouse in a long time.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[wmw999 2,550]

I think this would count as an example of vituperative hatred.

Do you have any basis for your assertion?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,080]

> In fact, we've generally held people with higher educations on a pedestal.

I've noticed quite the opposite. "Ivory tower" is a derogatory term used to refer to people of higher education who, because of that education, no longer understand the "real world." In modern day life, anti-evolutionism is a good example of a group of people who disdain higher education.

In politics, Al Gore was lampooned as a boring brainiac, a bombastic and out-of-touch intellectual who just spouted numbers and figures. Bill O'Reilly uses "Ivy League elite" as a putdown with great regularity, and he's a pretty popular political commentator.

[rhaig 0]

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It's probably because she's a woman over 40 with brains, an advanced degree, and a short, sandy-colored hairstyle.

and tits. tits make news. they're not big, but they're there

:)

--
Rob

[lawrocket 3]

We come from different perspectives, sir. Marriage vows are vows, indeed. But they are mutual.

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you lost respect for her because she didn't react as you think you would.

Exactly.

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thanks for being such a great example and helping me make my point.

I don't think it makes your point, but feel free to view it that way.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[happythoughts 0]

This thread highlights one of the most laughable mannerisms
that I notice in people.

It goes like this...

"What do you think about...(topic) ?"
"(This) is exactly what I think about (topic)."
"No, that's not it."

See it all the time.

[kelpdiver 2]

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In politics, Al Gore was lampooned as a boring brainiac, a bombastic and out-of-touch intellectual who just spouted numbers and figures. Bill O'Reilly uses "Ivy League elite" as a putdown with great regularity, and he's a pretty popular political commentator.

For those who believe that the disdain for Hillary was sexist in nature, Al Gore is another elitist, less than charismatic brain who the public doesn't particularly like.

I did like his willingness to frequently appear in Futurama after he left politics.

[billvon 3,080]

>Al Gore is another elitist . . .

Yep. And "elitist" is yet another word used to describe over-educated people who are not sufficiently like the "common man" in intelligence to be likable. Indeed, one of the big factors cited in Bush's victory over Gore was his "folksiness."

[mnealtx 0]

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>Al Gore is another elitist . . .

Yep. And "elitist" is yet another word used to describe over-educated people who are not sufficiently like the "common man" in intelligence to be likable. Indeed, one of the big factors cited in Bush's victory over Gore was his "folksiness."

Or someone that feels that they are superior to others due to their social status, education, monetary status, etc.

Sorta leads right back around the whole "arrogance" thing, doesn't it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lawrocket 3]

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"Ivory tower" is a derogatory term used to refer to people of higher education who, because of that education, no longer understand the "real world."

I've seen it used as academic elitism, and understanding that it is a term used as a perjorative against those who condescend.

The Ivory Tower is not used so much to describe those as not understanding the "real word" (though I know others pervert and extend the term) but rather is (and should be) reserved for those who outright condescend those who lack their credentials.

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In modern day life, anti-evolutionism is a good example of a group of people who disdain higher education.

I agree. However, "Ivory Tower" is exemplified by telling people that they don't knwo what's good for them. ""We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." Or, "Shut your mouth and open your mind."

What is Ivory Tower? "He went to Harvard! Obviously superior to one who merely made it to MIT. He knows better than you what is best for you."

A person may speak with confidence. With confidence comes the idea of self respect coupled with opening oneself to the thoughts and ideas of others.

There is a gossamer thread that separates confidence from arrogance. Arrogance means one is pretty set and will tolerate no dissent from those who know not what is best for them.

And those who espouse their subjective preferences as objective facts - using "PhD, MBA, MA, MS and BS" to mean "BMF."

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Bill O'Reilly uses "Ivy League elite" as a putdown with great regularity

Indeed. It is no better. Ivy League doesn't mean "elite."

Yet, strangely, most people know exactly what he is talking about.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jcd11235 0]

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Yet, strangely, most people know exactly what he is talking about.

That would be expected in a nation where so many people are proud of their ignorance.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[mnealtx 0]

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Yet, strangely, most people know exactly what he is talking about.

That would be expected in a nation where so many people are proud of their ignorance.

Your opinion, obviously...and an elitist one at that, unless you're including yourself as one of those who are "proud of their ignorance".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[lawrocket 3]

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Yet, strangely, most people know exactly what he is talking about.

That would be expected in a nation where so many people are proud of their ignorance.

So ignorance is when people know?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Yet, strangely, most people know exactly what he is talking about.

That would be expected in a nation where so many people are proud of their ignorance.

So ignorance is when people know?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=ignorant+and+proud+of+it&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=100&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

[lawrocket 3]

I think "ignorant" is being redefined as "people with whom I disagree."

That's a shame.

It is also "Ivory Tower." Those who disagree might not simply have another opinion, if they knew what I knew, they'd agree. But they are ignorant. There is no room for contrary opinion. They are uneducated and ignorant and unworthy of response."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[TomAiello 26]

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I think "ignorant" is being redefined as "people with whom I disagree."

Not "being." That happened a long time ago.

The next step is to make sure those "ignorant" people are "re-educated."

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[BikerBabe 0]

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I think "ignorant" is being redefined as "people with whom I disagree."

That's a shame.

It is also "Ivory Tower." Those who disagree might not simply have another opinion, if they knew what I knew, they'd agree. But they are ignorant. There is no room for contrary opinion. They are uneducated and ignorant and unworthy of response."

ahhh...but what, then, is "opinion?"

would me saying people who hold the "opinion" that the earth is flat are ignorant and unworthy of a response make me an Ivory tower Elitist?

If so, then i guess I am.

Sorry.

See, if i responded to them by providing countless scientific studies, facts, observations, laws, etc...they would just say something like "that proves nothing, i need HARD EVIDENCE that the earth is round! Until then i refuse to change my 'opinion'".

And then we're back where we started...me in my Ivory Tower and them on their flat earth, except now they are shouting at me and calling me an elitist jerk.


Funny...that sounds a lot like SC. huh.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[lawrocket 3]

Fact - that which is objectively verifiable.

Opinion - that which includes judgment.

Typically these "Ivory Tower" types (the right wing is by no means free from this - see any number of bible thumpers) will inform others that they are wrong. "Hillary had the best healthcare plan. That you cannot see that the healthcare system will be greatly improved with her plan is ignorance. You have no idea the way this works."

Conspiracy theorists are the quintessential ivory tower types. The messianic "my way is the truth."This isn't "flat earth." This is, "you are wrong." This is "Bush was an idiot." Not, "Bush made policy decisions I disagree with."

Anyone who disagrees is an idiot or ignorant. Not someone with a different viewpoint or perspective. "This healthcare plan is the best."
"Not for me."
"How could anyone intelligent believe that?"

See that "Ivory Tower" asshole on that Wife Swap episode.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[BikerBabe 0]

Flat earth people are idiots. They are wrong. Round earth is the truth.

See, i can say that and you might agree....but they wouldn't. They'd say, "you're mean and arrogant! you should say 'flat earth people profess opinions that i disagree with!'"

My point, of course, is that it's all a matter of perspective

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Flat earth people are idiots. They are wrong. Round earth is the truth.

Any chance you could modernize your example? It's more than 3 centuries out of date.