sundevil777 102 #1 June 2, 2009 Do you think Arab nations would ever surrender anything they might have won in any of the wars they fought and lost with Israel? Israel did strike the first blow in that six day war on June 5, but the Arab states had set the stage. In May, Nasser believing they were militarily superior repeatedly announced his intention to exterminate the "Zionist Entity", closed the Strait of Tiran to Israeli/Israel bound ships, and declared, "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel." Iraq's president said, "Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map." After his artillery was firing on Jerusalem, and Tel Aviv, Jordanian King Hussein on Radio Amman said to, "kill the Jews wherever they could be found, with one's hands, one's nails, anything." Israel definitely should not give back land to those that have no intention of actually pursuing peace. I think that is obvious case for their adversaries now. The settlement with Egypt's Sadat shows that Israel is quite willing to trade land for peace when there is a true change of heart with prior adversaries. I do not see a real partner for peace with the current leaders of the other Arab nations. The Arab nations always expect that Israel should withdraw to pre-67 borders, but why should that be expected?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 June 2, 2009 QuoteDo you think Arab nations would ever surrender anything they might have won in any of the wars they fought and lost with Israel? [snip] The Arab nations always expect that Israel should withdraw to pre-67 borders, but why should that be expected? You just answered your own question. All the Arab countries want are the borders to be rolled back pre-1947. I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong, but if you're going to talk about taking land away make sure you talk about the complete history of the situation.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #3 June 2, 2009 >Do you think Arab nations would ever surrender anything they might have >won in any of the wars they fought and lost with Israel? Sure. (Not with Israel, but in general.) Pakistan will probably cede some territory to India (and indirectly China) in Kashmir. >Israel definitely should not give back land to those that have no >intention of actually pursuing peace. That's up to them. If they think it will be to their long-term advantage - that's their call. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #4 June 2, 2009 If they want pre-47 borders, then they basically want to revoke the results of WWII. Why should that be expected. So many other national boundaries were redrawn, the Arab nations tried repeatedly to destroy Israel, but have always lost, why should they get what they would have won in a war without a real change of heart in their attitude?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #5 June 2, 2009 Quote>Do you think Arab nations would ever surrender anything they might have >won in any of the wars they fought and lost with Israel? Sure. (Not with Israel, but in general.) Pakistan will probably cede some territory to India (and indirectly China) in Kashmir. >Israel definitely should not give back land to those that have no >intention of actually pursuing peace. That's up to them. If they think it will be to their long-term advantage - that's their call. Pakistan isn't even one of Israel's adversaries in the region, and what they 'might' cede isn't being ceded to Israel. Of course the choice of whether Israel gives up territory won in the war is their choice, you didn't need to remind us of that. What I asked is why do you think they should/should not.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #6 June 2, 2009 Quote The settlement with Egypt's Sadat shows that Israel is quite willing to trade land for peace when there is a true change of heart with prior adversaries. I do not see a real partner for peace with the current leaders of the other Arab nations. With Sadat being killed for it, there is the question of would any leader want to make such a deal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #7 June 2, 2009 Begin was also assassinated for it, by extremists within his country. Unfortunately, it is indeed an obstacle to overcome. But without overcoming that, there is no hope of peace, just continuing war or for one side to actually win an overwhelming victory (massive killing - not just a temporary series of cease fire agreements like we have now.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #8 June 2, 2009 QuoteAll the Arab countries want are the borders to be rolled back pre-1947. They want the UK to occupy and rule most of the middle east? Or, are we looking back further? Ottoman rulership may be hard to find at this point...-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #9 June 2, 2009 Quote Quote All the Arab countries want are the borders to be rolled back pre-1947. They want the UK to occupy and rule most of the middle east? Or, are we looking back further? Ottoman rulership may be hard to find at this point... Quite right! People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #10 June 2, 2009 Quote>Do you think Arab nations would ever surrender anything they might have >won in any of the wars they fought and lost with Israel? Sure. (Not with Israel, but in general.) Pakistan will probably cede some territory to India (and indirectly China) in Kashmir. >Israel definitely should not give back land to those that have no >intention of actually pursuing peace. That's up to them. If they think it will be to their long-term advantage - that's their call. Pakistan is not an Arab nation. Where do you get the idea Pakistan will cede Kashmirri territory? I am far from an expert on the area, but I thought they wanted some of India's current share. (By current share I mean the territory occupied by the militaries of the respective countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #11 June 2, 2009 QuoteIf they want pre-47 borders, then they basically want to revoke the results of WWII. Why should that be expected. So many other national boundaries were redrawn, the Arab nations tried repeatedly to destroy Israel, but have always lost, why should they get what they would have won in a war without a real change of heart in their attitude? Gotta love the righty world view. The world is black and whire. No shades of grey at all. If it done by white folks of northern European ancestry, its all good. Diplomacy is for pussies. "We kicked their ass in a war and took their land. We beat 'em fair and square. You got a problem wit dat? We're keeping what we took. Fuck off." A sure way to build lasting peace. You really should read up on the events of 1945-1950 and how what is now known as Israel came about. The folks that pulled it off were terrorists at that time. Then they became world leaders and their past was forgotten... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #12 June 2, 2009 Quote You really should read up on the events of 1945-1950 and how what is now known as Israel came about. The folks that pulled it off were terrorists at that time. Then they became world leaders and their past was forgotten... What an empty statement. A lot of events took place in the post WWII recovery. Eastern Europe ceased to exist for 45 years. In general, nation building is messy, and certainly not done via diplomacy. Yugoslavia was a nice failure of the latter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #13 June 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteIf they want pre-47 borders, then they basically want to revoke the results of WWII. Why should that be expected. So many other national boundaries were redrawn, the Arab nations tried repeatedly to destroy Israel, but have always lost, why should they get what they would have won in a war without a real change of heart in their attitude? Gotta love the righty world view. The world is black and whire. No shades of grey at all. If it done by white folks of northern European ancestry, its all good. Diplomacy is for pussies. "We kicked their ass in a war and took their land. We beat 'em fair and square. You got a problem wit dat? We're keeping what we took. Fuck off." A sure way to build lasting peace. You really should read up on the events of 1945-1950 and how what is now known as Israel came about. The folks that pulled it off were terrorists at that time. Then they became world leaders and their past was forgotten... I welcome the opportunity to debate the history. Quite wrong for you to assume I am not knowledgeable in this area. My father's family was wise enough to get out of Russia and to Chicago during the 2nd big wave of pograms before WWI, so I admit I am biased. Your reply was not an argument in favor of anything substantive, you got nothing.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #14 June 3, 2009 QuoteDiplomacy is for pussies. Israel repeatedly has been willing to settle the differences by diplomacy. The Arab nations (with exceptions like Egypt) have repeatedly only pretended to negotiate in good faith, especially the Palestinian Authority. Even as a righty, I do give pres Clinton much credit for the Oslo process. Dennis Ross, who was there on behalf of Clinton, has recounted in great detail how Arafat was only pretending to negotiate. He got almost everything he was asking, his own negotiation team was enthusiastic about recommending the agreement to Arafat, but he had no intention of making peace. Even after Arafat's death, the leadership of the PA has been unable to control actions of their militant factions, and/or unwilling to try.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
