Abortion Beliefs

[rockstar_girl 0]

Aw crap. Meant to click on Pro-Choice, but I'm an idiot without my glasses on... -1 for me!

[billvon 3,107]

>Interesting claim seeing as how I posted two cases of people being
>charged with double homicide for killing a pregnant woman.

Yep. And if you kill a woman in a coma lying in a bed, it's murder. If a doctor kills her by turning off her life support at the request of her family, it's not. It's the law.

>What information could you possibly have to back up the claim that
>most women don't ever know they've miscarried.

Because for most women who "lose an embryo", the only sign that her conception will not come to term is that she has a normal period. If you know any women, you may have noticed that they have periods and do not check their tampons with a microscope to see if it contains an unimplanted embryo.

> The women I've known who have lost pregnancies were crushed as if it
> were already born.

I suspect that is not true, since most of them are not even aware of it.

[Muenkel 0]

I thought your poll choices were very concise.

Since I haven't been online in several weeks, I haven't seen any discussion on the Tilley murder. The person who killed Dr. Tiller is a cold blooded murderer and should be prosecuted as such.

I actually read all the posts in this thread. As I expected, 98% of the posters were pro-choice on some level.

Legal or not, the bottom line in regard to abortion at any stage and under any circumstance comes down to some level of selfishness on the the part of the parent(s). Their culpability I cannot judge.

There was a time in the USA's history where the SCOTUS ruled blacks to not be human. Research the Dred Scott case.

_________________________________________
Chris

[FallingOsh 0]

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> The women I've known who have lost pregnancies were crushed as if it
> were already born.

I suspect that is not true, since most of them are not even aware of it.

Yes, you're right. My bad. I actually have no friends at all. Thanks for clearing up my personal experiences with your suspections.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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Starving children in Africa and kids suffering from Iraq war are also human lives. So is someone on death row. Even Osama Bin Laden is human life. If you're saying you're pro-human-life but at the same time for example you support death penalty, I cannot see how could you ever call yourself pro-life.

Let me know when a fetus goes on a murder rampager or runs a plane into a building and that might be a valid argument.

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Well, that's pro-fetus then, not generic 'pro-life'.

The fetus is alive. It's a life. Pro-life. Anti-abortion. call it whatever you want.

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For example, you do not offer potential mothers financial incentives (out of your own pockets, of course) to keep the unwanted baby and then surrender it to adoption.

Me personally, I don't give them money. I do pay plenty in taxes that goes to single mothers. They chose to have sex. They got pregnant. Why should I open my wallet for their mistakes?

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All you want is to revoke her right to choose. That's why you're ultimately anti-choice.

Again, call it whatever you want. Doesn't bother me to be labeled anti-choice.

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That's the main problem of Jesus crowd - they want everyone else act according to their personal beliefs, which are based on fairly tales written in an old myth book.

You think that the only people who are against abortion are the Christians? You want me to live and believe what you believe. How is that any different?

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...and it's still a human life when the baby grows up into Osama Bin Laden. You see my point?

Not in the least. I guess we should just kill all babies to prevent a Hitler or Bin Laden

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Stay positive and love your life.

[Caitlin89 0]

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> The women I've known who have lost pregnancies were crushed as if it
> were already born.

I suspect that is not true, since most of them are not even aware of it.

Yes, you're right. My bad. I actually have no friends at all. Thanks for clearing up my personal experiences with your suspections.

If a women is aware of a pregnancy (especially a wanted one), then chances are that a miscarriage will be an upsetting experience--you're correct. However, as I posted somewhere above, between 60 and 80% of pregnancies do not survive beyond the embryonic period (max 8 weeks). In the majority of these cases, the woman is not aware that she lost the zygote/embryo, or that she was even pregnant at all.

[wmw999 2,584]

I think his point is that 60-80% of pregnancies end in failure before the mother is even aware that she's pregnant. If you define life as beginning at conception, that means that every fertilized egg, whether it implants or not, is a human being.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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I think his point is that 60-80% of pregnancies end in failure before the mother is even aware that she's pregnant. If you define life as beginning at conception, that means that every fertilized egg, whether it implants or not, is a human being.

Wendy P.

It's not FallingOsh that's missing BV's point, Billvon's the one being a dork about refusing to get FO's point - just to get his goat. He's doing it on purpose and it adds nothing to the exchange. The ONLY way BVs point is valid is if he's operating under the assumption that EVERY miscarriage goes unnoticed. (Caitlin got it, but instead of instructing BV, for some reason she corrected FO)

apparently it's working

FO's position is just that there are many woman that are seriously upset about knowing about a miscarriage. This implies that they have a position that the fetus was a potential baby/child/person and that loss is real. It's simple, but not unreasonable and is the natural counter to the other position that the fetus is just tissue/annoyance/parasite.

It just acknowledges that the viewpoint of the status of a fetus is varied across the spectrum. Either side insisting on their viewpoint only is really disengenuous.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,584]

He's absolutely right that for some women a miscarriage is devastating. For some it's not. Generally, if it's not hard for them, they don't talk about it.

And thanks for the explanation; I obviously haven't been paying enough attention to this thread . That said, I need to go back to not paying enough attention to this thread.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,107]

>The ONLY way BVs point is valid is if he's operating under the
>assumption that EVERY miscarriage goes unnoticed.

No, my point is that MOST losses of embryos go unnoticed - which is something that many people are unaware of.

>FO's position is just that there are many woman that are seriously
>upset about knowing about a miscarriage.

Absolutely - but most don't know they have "lost a child."

[FallingOsh 0]

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Absolutely - but most don't know they have "lost a child."

So, getting back to the discussion, what does that have to do with abortion being ok?

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Stay positive and love your life.

[billvon 3,107]

>what does that have to do with abortion being ok?

Women's bodies spontaneously reject around 60% of conceptions (i.e. most fertilized embryos do not implant.) These failed implantations generally go unnoticed.

One of the planks of the pro-life movement is that human life begins at conception, and any loss of life after that is the loss of a human being. They often make no distinction between early term abortion or late term abortion. I can't see the logic in that, since our own bodies spontaneously reject most fertilized embryos; indeed, that's the norm.

[georgerussia 0]

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Let me know when a fetus goes on a murder rampager or runs a plane into a building and that might be a valid argument.

So what? Osama Bin Laden is still a human life, and if you think it's ok to "abort" him just because he's not fetus, or because he flies planes into buildings, it's ridiculous because it is still human life.

You also did not address starving children in Africa and kids suffering from Iraq war. Do they also fly planes into buildings?

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The fetus is alive. It's a life. Pro-life. Anti-abortion. call it whatever you want.

What I'm trying to say is that you need to be consistent. If you call yourself pro-human-life, but only support fetus life, this means you're just pro-fetus-life. But since the only way you want to support fetus life is to deny rights to abortion (instead of just offering financial support to the potential mothers to have the baby born with following adoption), you cannot be even pro-fetus, and just become anti-abortion.

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Me personally, I don't give them money. I do pay plenty in taxes that goes to single mothers. They chose to have sex. They got pregnant. Why should I open my wallet for their mistakes?

Because you claim to be a "pro-fetus", so keeping the fetus alive should be a priority for you. If it really was, one of the ways would be to open your wallet and pay to support YOUR BELIEFS. Since you do not want to do so (as I suspected), you're not even pro-fetus. You're just anti-choice.

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Again, call it whatever you want. Doesn't bother me to be labeled anti-choice.

Then don't call yourself pro-life. You are not.

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You think that the only people who are against abortion are the Christians? You want me to live and believe what you believe. How is that any different?

Yes, I think so, and my own experience supports it - I've met very few agnostics who were anti-choice.

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Not in the least. I guess we should just kill all babies to prevent a Hitler or Bin Laden

[rehmwa 2]

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That said, I need to go back to not paying enough attention to this thread.

I think I'll take your example too and go back to not paying enough attention to thi

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[FallingOsh 0]

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>what does that have to do with abortion being ok?

Women's bodies spontaneously reject around 60% of conceptions (i.e. most fertilized embryos do not implant.) These failed implantations generally go unnoticed.

One of the planks of the pro-life movement is that human life begins at conception, and any loss of life after that is the loss of a human being. They often make no distinction between early term abortion or late term abortion. I can't see the logic in that, since our own bodies spontaneously reject most fertilized embryos; indeed, that's the norm.

People die natural deaths. Therefore, murder should be legal.

The human body rejecting the embryo is not even remotely close to making abortion ok.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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So what? Osama Bin Laden is still a human life, and if you think it's ok to "abort" him just because he's not fetus, or because he flies planes into buildings, it's ridiculous because it is still human life.

So, he's a danger to thousands of people and won't stop killing people until he's dead. You're equating a baby (or fetus, whatever) to Bin Laden. It's off the deep end.

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You also did not address starving children in Africa and kids suffering from Iraq war. Do they also fly planes into buildings?

No. And they shouldnt be killed. Nor should they have been aborted.

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What I'm trying to say is that you need to be consistent.

Not all situations are the same. I don't have a problem with killing Bin Laden. I do have a problem killing someone in the mall. I also have a problem killing a baby (or fetus, whatever).

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If you call yourself pro-human-life, but only support fetus life, this means you're just pro-fetus-life.

I'm pro all life. Killing Bin Laden will ultimately save lives. If he wants to turn himself in and sit in prison then so be it. If he wants to fight to the death then I won't lose any sleep over it.

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But since the only way you want to support fetus life is to deny rights to abortion (instead of just offering financial support to the potential mothers to have the baby born with following adoption), you cannot be even pro-fetus, and just become anti-abortion.

There are plenty of monitary handouts to single mothers. Even those who choose not to work get extra money from the government for their kids.

Again, if you want to call me anti-abortion then that's fine. No argument from me.

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Because you claim to be a "pro-fetus", so keeping the fetus alive should be a priority for you. If it really was, one of the ways would be to open your wallet and pay to support YOUR BELIEFS. Since you do not want to do so (as I suspected), you're not even pro-fetus. You're just anti-choice.

Again, call me whatever makes you feel better. I'm anti-abortion and anti-choice. I don't think abortion is ok. Personal responsibility is paramount. If they can go out and have sex, then they can support the child (with the government handouts that come from my tax dollars).

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Then don't call yourself pro-life. You are not.

I'm not. You're labeling me like a bumper sticker. I don't care what you want to call me.


How bad of you! What would your Jizzas say?

It was sarcastic. Jesus would say don't abort the baby.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[billvon 3,107]

>People die natural deaths. Therefore, murder should be legal.

Murder is, by definition, illegal.

However, it is not illegal for a family to decide to "kill" (pull the plug on) a family member they think will not have much quality of life if kept alive. It is also not illegal for a woman to decide to "kill" (abort) a fetus if she so chooses.

>The human body rejecting the embryo is not even remotely close to
>making abortion ok.

I didn't say it was. I was just pointing out the fallacy of claiming that losing a fertilized egg is at all similar to losing a child. They have nothing to do with each other, and it's silly to use that as an argument against abortion.

[FallingOsh 0]

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>People die natural deaths. Therefore, murder should be legal.

Murder is, by definition, illegal.

However, it is not illegal for a family to decide to "kill" (pull the plug on) a family member they think will not have much quality of life if kept alive. It is also not illegal for a woman to decide to "kill" (abort) a fetus if she so chooses.

>The human body rejecting the embryo is not even remotely close to
>making abortion ok.

I didn't say it was. I was just pointing out the fallacy of claiming that losing a fertilized egg is at all similar to losing a child. They have nothing to do with each other, and it's silly to use that as an argument against abortion.

You've stretched yourself really thin in this thread.

It's not murder to kill a fetus. Oh, wait. Yeah, it is. Well, people in hospitals being kept alive by machines sometimes have the machines turned off so abortion should be legal. A woman isn't sad about a period. Therefore losing a fetus isn't sad. Therefore abortion should be legal.

There are so many stretches and hyperbole in this thread it's rediculous. Bin Laden is a life therefore I can't be against abortion. I'm not pro-life I'm just anti-abortion. Blah blah.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[Skwrl 56]

Possibly an interesting reading on this subject: http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml

It points out that the "religious perspective" (that abortion should be prohibited) is actually almost a brand new issue, relatively speaking (it really arose in the late 19th century) - and it had nothing to do with religion!

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[FreeflyChile 0]

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>People die natural deaths. Therefore, murder should be legal.

Murder is, by definition, illegal.

However, it is not illegal for a family to decide to "kill" (pull the plug on) a family member they think will not have much quality of life if kept alive. It is also not illegal for a woman to decide to "kill" (abort) a fetus if she so chooses.

>The human body rejecting the embryo is not even remotely close to
>making abortion ok.

I didn't say it was. I was just pointing out the fallacy of claiming that losing a fertilized egg is at all similar to losing a child. They have nothing to do with each other, and it's silly to use that as an argument against abortion.

You've stretched yourself really thin in this thread.

It's not murder to kill a fetus. Oh, wait. Yeah, it is. Well, people in hospitals being kept alive by machines sometimes have the machines turned off so abortion should be legal. A woman isn't sad about a period. Therefore losing a fetus isn't sad. Therefore abortion should be legal.

There are so many stretches and hyperbole in this thread it's rediculous. Bin Laden is a life therefore I can't be against abortion. I'm not pro-life I'm just anti-abortion. Blah blah.

Quick question that came up without doing any research on this or reading all of the pages of the thread (so I don't know if this has been covered):

If you think abortion is murder, then if a woman purposely disregards doctor's orders or purposely does things to induce an abortion or to to just hurt the fetus out of spite (drinking heavily, punching herself in the midsection, etc), should that then be considered battery? Should THAT be illegal? And if so, how do you enforce?

[billvon 3,107]

>It's not murder to kill a fetus. Oh, wait. Yeah, it is.

It is not murder for a doctor to kill a fetus at the request of the mother. It is not murder to kill a family member on life support if the family agrees. You may not like those facts, but there they are.

It _is_ murder for someone to kill the mother and the fetus if you shoot them during a crime. It _is_ murder to kill the family member on life support if you shoot them in the course of a robbery.

> Well, people in hospitals being kept alive by machines sometimes have
> the machines turned off so abortion should be legal.

Nope. But it does demonstrate that there are cases where killing a living, innocent, non-consenting human is sometimes legal and sometimes illegal. You made the argument that since killing a fetus during a robbery is murder, then any abortion should be murder. That's not the case in other areas, so your argument isn't valid.

> A woman isn't sad about a period. Therefore losing a fetus isn't sad.

Most women are not made sad by their periods, even when the period happend because a fertilized ovum did not implant. That's really not the same as having a miscarriage after 16 weeks, no matter what point you're trying to make.

If you want to say you are against abortion, fine. Many people are. But your arguments as to why it's "really murder" are absurd, and make it trivially easy to refute your position. Just be honest about your position, and it becomes easier to discuss rationally.

>I'm not pro-life I'm just anti-abortion.

Yep, there's plenty of hyperbole in both directions. I particularly liked the "all abortion opponents should be called anti-life" argument.

[georgerussia 0]

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So, he's a danger to thousands of people and won't stop killing people until he's dead. You're equating a baby (or fetus, whatever) to Bin Laden. It's off the deep end.

This was an example to show logical fallacy in a typical "pro-life" point. How do you know Bin Laden is danger to a thousands of people? From TV? He wasn't even convicted, yet you have no problem to destroy a sacred human life just because a bunch of people from TV news (who have lied before) told you he's guilty. So much for life...

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No. And they shouldnt be killed. Nor should they have been aborted.

So what do you do to protect their precious human lives? In abortion issue you're pretty radical, wanting to remove the right to choose even from those who do not share your agenda. Calling yourself "pro-life", I'd expect more from you regarding other issues that just a lazy "they shouldn't be killed" statement.

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Again, if you want to call me anti-abortion then that's fine. No argument from me.

I would like you to show you that calling yourself 'pro-life' is just putting a fake political label, and that really you're just anti-choice/anti-abortion.

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Again, call me whatever makes you feel better. I'm anti-abortion and anti-choice. I don't think abortion is ok.

No, there is more. Be honest with yourself. You do not just think abortion is ok. You want to deny right to abortion even to those who do not share your opinion. There is a huge difference. For example, I also think abortion is ok, and me and my wife wouldn't do it, but we recognize the right of others to do it.

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Personal responsibility is paramount. If they can go out and have sex, then they can support the child (with the government handouts that come from my tax dollars).

This is pretty similar to "if you call yourself Christian, do not go to doctor when you're sick. Doing so instead of praying Jesus for miracle cure shows that you have no faith, and therefore not a Christian".

I wonder if you're against Medicaid for those who god AIDS. After all, at least some of them got it by going out and having unprotected sex.

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It was sarcastic. Jesus would say don't abort the baby.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Well. according to some, being or voting Pro choice means you re really pro abortion, which really means that you're saying: "Hey, I want all you pregnant women to run out now and get an abortion! "

Then I guess I'm not pro choice.

Even though many of them have a bumper sticker that says "Choose Life!" Which is a sentiment I agree with.


So I guess I'm going to have to take the Palin position: I'm Pro-Abstainance.


See, what I want is to NOT dictate what others should do with their lives. So when that particular issue comes to a vote, I wish to abstain.

So I am Pro-Abstainance.

Speed Racer
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[FallingOsh 0]

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This was an example to show logical fallacy in a typical "pro-life" point. How do you know Bin Laden is danger to a thousands of people?

Really?

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From TV? He wasn't even convicted, yet you have no problem to destroy a sacred human life just because a bunch of people from TV news (who have lied before) told you he's guilty. So much for life...

Poor Bin Laden. He's never been convicted therefore he's not a threat. He's never put out any statements claiming responsibility for terrorist attacks or calls for the murder of westerners. But, but, but he's never been convicted...

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So what do you do to protect their precious human lives?

The US is the number one provider of aid in the world. What do you suggest be done?

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In abortion issue you're pretty radical, wanting to remove the right to choose even from those who do not share your agenda.

Anti-abortion is not a radical view. Not even close. You believe it to be radical because it's different than yours.

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I would like you to show you that calling yourself 'pro-life' is just putting a fake political label, and that really you're just anti-choice/anti-abortion.

Are you even reading? I didn't label myself anything. I'm fairly certain I've never called myself pro-life in this thread. I've said multiple times that if you want to label me anti-abortion then that's fine. It's an accurate statement.

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No, there is more. Be honest with yourself. You do not just think abortion is ok. You want to deny right to abortion even to those who do not share your opinion. There is a huge difference. For example, I also think abortion is ok, and me and my wife wouldn't do it, but we recognize the right of others to do it.

So if someone thinks something is ok, it should be legal? That's a pretty open-ended way to make laws.

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Personal responsibility is paramount. If they can go out and have sex, then they can support the child (with the government handouts that come from my tax dollars).

This is pretty similar to "if you call yourself Christian, do not go to doctor when you're sick. Doing so instead of praying Jesus for miracle cure shows that you have no faith, and therefore not a Christian".

It is absolutely nothing like that. Not even in the same category. You're just looking for a chance to take cheap shots at religion.

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I wonder if you're against Medicaid for those who god AIDS. After all, at least some of them got it by going out and having unprotected sex.

Again with the hyperbole and stretching. I'm against abortion, therefore I don't care about AIDS in Africa. It's just rediculous.

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Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

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>It's not murder to kill a fetus. Oh, wait. Yeah, it is.

It is not murder for a doctor to kill a fetus at the request of the mother. It is not murder to kill a family member on life support if the family agrees. You may not like those facts, but there they are.

You're missing my point. If it's not a life then why can it be murder?

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You made the argument that since killing a fetus during a robbery is murder, then any abortion should be murder. That's not the case in other areas, so your argument isn't valid.

And you've made the point that it's just an ebryo or fetus. That's not the case in other areas, so your argument isn't valid.

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If you want to say you are against abortion, fine. Many people are. But your arguments as to why it's "really murder" are absurd, and make it trivially easy to refute your position.

It's a human life. If it's considered murder in some cases then it has to be a human life. It's not just an embryo or a fetus. That was my point.

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Just be honest about your position, and it becomes easier to discuss rationally.

I don't see how I could possibly be more honest about my opinion. I'm against abortion. You and homeboy are making connections to life support, periods, and Bin Laden. Talk about a rational discussion...

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Yep, there's plenty of hyperbole in both directions. I particularly liked the "all abortion opponents should be called anti-life" argument.

I had nothing to do with that discussion.

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Stay positive and love your life.

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