Abortion Beliefs

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

> My line is at conception.

So you believe that when an egg is fertilized (conception) but it does not implant, it is the same as if a child had died? Would you have a funeral for the embryo?

I've known several women who had miscarriages and yes, to them it was the same as a child dying.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Quote

That's very clever. They have about as much as a newborn.

Would you please provide any proof to support your statement that a fetus (in any state, including just a fertilized egg, as you didn't seem to specify any restrictions) is as capable of making choices as a newborn? Once you have it done, could you please explain the proper way to ask the opinion of the fetus - or you want us all just ask you instead of fetus?

And a newborn will clearly discribe answer all the questions you have for them. Try harder to come up with an arguement.

A 2 year old can not make the same decisions as a 10 year old either.

[kbordson 8]

Quote

I take her comment as saying "I am doing my part by adopting children.....what have you done" and I've spent 2 years of my live trying (24 hours a day 5 and sometimes 7 days a week) to make them better because most of them came from "families" that really didn't care about them.

I appreciate what she has done, but if she is implying I don't do my share to "help with the problem, I figure it as 24 months with 12 kids says that arguement does not fly with me. I've done my part too.

Sorry if it came off as if I were saying something else.

Thank you for clarifying that.

I commend both of you for helping with those that truly need help.... but the actions that you have done have worked to help children; children that have been abandoned, abused and are in need of someone to trust. It takes true grace to give them that.

But... that discussion is not the same as discussing abortion beliefs.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Whatever makes you feel better. I'm not sure what it is kicking the inside of my friend's wife stomach. She should get that checked out, I guess.

She doesn't have to check out anything. It's you who should check out the dictionary.

baby
• noun (pl. babies)
1 a child or animal that is newly or recently born.
2 a timid or childish person.
3 informal a person with whom one is having a romantic relationship.
4 (one’s baby) one’s particular responsibility, achievement, or concern.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/baby?view=uk

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Quote

I take her comment as saying "I am doing my part by adopting children.....what have you done" and I've spent 2 years of my live trying (24 hours a day 5 and sometimes 7 days a week) to make them better because most of them came from "families" that really didn't care about them.

I appreciate what she has done, but if she is implying I don't do my share to "help with the problem, I figure it as 24 months with 12 kids says that arguement does not fly with me. I've done my part too.

Sorry if it came off as if I were saying something else.

Thank you for clarifying that.

I commend both of you for helping with those that truly need help.... but the actions that you have done have worked to help children; children that have been abandoned, abused and are in need of someone to trust. It takes true grace to give them that.

But... that discussion is not the same as discussing abortion beliefs.

Then why did she bring it up?

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Are you saying that babies do not "express discomfort" while in a womans stomach. They do not just lie there and not move. Some react to spicey food, some to sudden motion. they don't just "float there".

No, I'm not saying that. I'm asking you a straight question: do you have any proof that a fetus in any stage (in any state, including just a fertilized egg, as you didn't seem to specify any restrictions) is as capable of making choices as a newborn? Somehow it's the parents who are making medical decisions (including life-threatening situations) for their babies quite after a while they were born. Why do we need that if even the unborn fetus - according to you - could make such decisions, and you allegedly know how to understand their opinion?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

And a newborn will clearly discribe answer all the questions you have for them.

My question to you was about fetuses, not about newborns. I asked two questions: how could you prove that a fetus really could have an opinion (and at which stage? could fertilized egg make a decision too?), and what is the proper way to get the fetus opinion?

The reason I'm asking it is that you brought this issue yourself saying that 'fetus does not have a choice'. Therefore you need to prove that a) fetus could have a choice and b) it's possible to know beyond the reasonable doubt what the fetus choice is.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[kbordson 8]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I take her comment as saying "I am doing my part by adopting children.....what have you done" and I've spent 2 years of my live trying (24 hours a day 5 and sometimes 7 days a week) to make them better because most of them came from "families" that really didn't care about them.

I appreciate what she has done, but if she is implying I don't do my share to "help with the problem, I figure it as 24 months with 12 kids says that arguement does not fly with me. I've done my part too.

Sorry if it came off as if I were saying something else.

Thank you for clarifying that.

I commend both of you for helping with those that truly need help.... but the actions that you have done have worked to help children; children that have been abandoned, abused and are in need of someone to trust. It takes true grace to give them that.

But... that discussion is not the same as discussing abortion beliefs.

Then why did she bring it up?

Cuz I think she was offended by the "killing foster kids" type comments. (as I would be too if I were adopting) So she was trying to let you know more about her history/background.

Her opinion is as valid as yours and in reality she has no need to defend the WHY's of her beliefs, but I believe that your comment was so caustic to her that she felt she had to respond in defense.

But if you had read post #59, the initial paragraph was restating to PREVENT THE PREGNANCY.... (the second paragraph was just to allow you the benefit of knowing her background)


- note: This is just MY opinion on why she brought it up. Ask her.

[billvon 3,110]

>I've known several women who had miscarriages and yes, to them it
>was the same as a child dying.

Let's be clear here. A failure to implant means that a fertile woman just has a normal period; the embryo is expelled before it gets very far. Do you know any women who have equated their periods to a child dying?

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

>I've known several women who had miscarriages and yes, to them it
>was the same as a child dying.

Let's be clear here. A failure to implant means that a fertile woman just has a normal period; the embryo is expelled before it gets very far. Do you know any women who have equated their periods to a child dying?

Hyperbole much, bill? There's a LARGE difference between a failure to implant and a miscarriage, and if you DON'T know that, then you have no reason to be posting in an abortion thread.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

So a woman has all the say, and it's the womans job to have the kid, and the man's job to finacially support the 2 for 18 years or loose his child to a "medical Procedure" and he should have no say in the matter. OK, I think I understand your point of view. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

Men should have no rights after the initial intercourse when it come to if their child lives to see day one or not.

Sounds fair to me.

If you're against abortion, don't have sex with a woman that would have one. Have that discussion before you have sex. If you don't want to take responsibility for a child that you might have, don't have sex, or make sure that you use protection and that she is on birth control.

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

>I've known several women who had miscarriages and yes, to them it
>was the same as a child dying.

Let's be clear here. A failure to implant means that a fertile woman just has a normal period; the embryo is expelled before it gets very far. Do you know any women who have equated their periods to a child dying?

What difference does the specific definition make if your view is that un-born babies aren't really babies? Your argument is that an egg is just an egg, an embryo is just an embryo, and a fetus is just a fetus. If none are babies then the difference between losing each of those is equal according to some in this discussion.

Losing a "fetus" is like losing a "real baby" to those who have been through it (for those I knew, anyway). If you want to argue that an un-implanted egg is different than a fetus then I'll agree and we're back to discussing at what point a life is a life and ending it is wrong.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

If you're against abortion, don't have sex with a woman that would have one. Have that discussion before you have sex. If you don't want to take responsibility for a child that you might have, don't have sex, or make sure that you use protection and that she is on birth control.

If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. Don't rely on abortion as a plan B.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

Quote

Whatever makes you feel better. I'm not sure what it is kicking the inside of my friend's wife stomach. She should get that checked out, I guess.

She doesn't have to check out anything. It's you who should check out the dictionary.

baby
• noun (pl. babies)
1 a child or animal that is newly or recently born.
2 a timid or childish person.
3 informal a person with whom one is having a romantic relationship.
4 (one’s baby) one’s particular responsibility, achievement, or concern.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/baby?view=uk

Like I said, whatever makes you feel better. Call it whatever you want. It's still a human life and it's not just the crazy ass right wingers who think so.

http://www.lifenews.com/state4210.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45520-2004Nov12.html

It's either a human life or it isn't.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[georgerussia 0]

Quote

Like I said, whatever makes you feel better. Call it whatever you want. It's still a human life and it's not just the crazy ass right wingers who think so.

Well, what really matters is that you've admitted that you're just playing games while inventing new meanings for well-known words, and labeling the opponents. Which confirms my impression that the whole "pro-life" is just yet another mumbo-jumbo created by politicians to support their personal agenda/beliefs, and they do not really care of "sacred human life". I suspected that, but it's always nice to get first-hand confirmation.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. Don't rely on abortion as a plan B.

You're assuming that women always choose to have sex.

Personally, I wouldn't choose abortion unless my life was in danger. However, I'm not going to tell any woman that she has to have her rapist's baby, and I'm not going to advocate implementing a policy that encourages people to lie to get an abortion.

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Quote

Are you saying that babies do not "express discomfort" while in a womans stomach. They do not just lie there and not move. Some react to spicey food, some to sudden motion. they don't just "float there".

No, I'm not saying that. I'm asking you a straight question: do you have any proof that a fetus in any stage (in any state, including just a fertilized egg, as you didn't seem to specify any restrictions) is as capable of making choices as a newborn? Somehow it's the parents who are making medical decisions (including life-threatening situations) for their babies quite after a while they were born. Why do we need that if even the unborn fetus - according to you - could make such decisions, and you allegedly know how to understand their opinion?

I'm saying that they can make similar decisions as the newborn. They can express discomfort. Otherwise they would not move before birth.

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Quote

And a newborn will clearly discribe answer all the questions you have for them.

My question to you was about fetuses, not about newborns. I asked two questions: how could you prove that a fetus really could have an opinion (and at which stage? could fertilized egg make a decision too?), and what is the proper way to get the fetus opinion?

The reason I'm asking it is that you brought this issue yourself saying that 'fetus does not have a choice'. Therefore you need to prove that a) fetus could have a choice and b) it's possible to know beyond the reasonable doubt what the fetus choice is.

I'm saying that before birth, they express their "opinion" a few days before birth, as a newborn can express their "opinion". What is the proper way to get a newborn's "opinion"? What is the difference?

Is it possible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a newborn does not want to be thrown in a dumpster? Is is possible to know if a 3rd trimester baby does not want it's arms and legs ripped off and vaccumed out of a womans body? You are correct, neither can express their opinion. Are you saying this makes abortion, and abandoning a newborn both ok?

[klingeme 1]

While we are throwing out definitions:

life
Show Spelled Pronunciation [lahyf]
–noun 1. the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.
2. the sum of the distinguishing phenomena of organisms, esp. metabolism, growth, reproduction, and adaptation to environment.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/life

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Cuz I think she was offended by the "killing foster kids" type comments. (as I would be too if I were adopting) So she was trying to let you know more about her history/background.

Her opinion is as valid as yours and in reality she has no need to defend the WHY's of her beliefs, but I believe that your comment was so caustic to her that she felt she had to respond in defense.

But if you had read post #59, the initial paragraph was restating to PREVENT THE PREGNANCY.... (the second paragraph was just to allow you the benefit of knowing her background)


- note: This is just MY opinion on why she brought it up. Ask her.

If she took any offense to my over the top analogies, that is not at all what was intended. It was intended to be WAY over the top. I do not advocate killing of newborns and throwing them in dumpsters. I do not advocate killing foster children, and much to the contrary, I spent 2 of the hardest years of my life helping them out. However, I also do feel strongly about abortion and feel this is also the ending of a life.

I appologize if my comment was taken wrong.

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

Cuz I think she was offended by the "killing foster kids" type comments. (as I would be too if I were adopting) So she was trying to let you know more about her history/background.

Her opinion is as valid as yours and in reality she has no need to defend the WHY's of her beliefs, but I believe that your comment was so caustic to her that she felt she had to respond in defense.

But if you had read post #59, the initial paragraph was restating to PREVENT THE PREGNANCY.... (the second paragraph was just to allow you the benefit of knowing her background)


- note: This is just MY opinion on why she brought it up. Ask her.

This is exactly what my intent was (and you put it far better than I probably could have.... thank you!)

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Quote

Cuz I think she was offended by the "killing foster kids" type comments. (as I would be too if I were adopting) So she was trying to let you know more about her history/background.

Her opinion is as valid as yours and in reality she has no need to defend the WHY's of her beliefs, but I believe that your comment was so caustic to her that she felt she had to respond in defense.

But if you had read post #59, the initial paragraph was restating to PREVENT THE PREGNANCY.... (the second paragraph was just to allow you the benefit of knowing her background)


- note: This is just MY opinion on why she brought it up. Ask her.

This is exactly what my intent was (and you put it far better than I probably could have.... thank you!)

And I hope you understand my expaination and accept my appology.

[wmw999 2,584]

Quote

There's a LARGE difference between a failure to implant and a miscarriage

Yup. But one of the other posters said that it's a baby as soon as conception happens, and conception happens before implantation.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Caitlin89 0]

Quote

Quote

>I've known several women who had miscarriages and yes, to them it
>was the same as a child dying.

Let's be clear here. A failure to implant means that a fertile woman just has a normal period; the embryo is expelled before it gets very far. Do you know any women who have equated their periods to a child dying?

Hyperbole much, bill? There's a LARGE difference between a failure to implant and a miscarriage, and if you DON'T know that, then you have no reason to be posting in an abortion thread.

Actually, it's estimated that between 60 and 80% of pregnancies do not survive beyond the embryonic period (8 weeks). Most women do not even know they are pregnant, and mistake a heavy period for a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage).

[klingeme 1]

Quote

Quote

There's a LARGE difference between a failure to implant and a miscarriage

Yup. But one of the other posters said that it's a baby as soon as conception happens, and conception happens before implantation.

Wendy P.

I said LIFE starts at conception. If I said that 1 cell multiplying to 2 cells to 4 cells to 8 cells..... is a baby, I misspoke, but based on the previous definitions that is a "LIVE" organism.