jcd11235 0 #51 June 2, 2009 QuoteAll it requires is an "ORM-D" sticker, indicating that it's classified as "other regulated material - category Domestic".Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #52 June 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteA 5 gallon propane tank hooked up to your barbeque, fine. A 5,000 gallon propane tank in a residential neighborhood; that's a problem. What about 1000 gallons? Seriously, I'm curious where you'd draw the line. I dunno. That's why I asked the question in the subject line of this thread when I started it. To me, a 30' shipping container seemed a bit excessive. Now, admittedly that could be a 30' foot shipping container that also acted as his hobby room and where he hung out and did his reloading and maybe only a small section of it had significant amounts of ammo in it. Then again, maybe it was jam packed and every cubic inch was filled. It's still a 30' shipping container either way but I have a feeling that the results vary wildly depending on how packed it is.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #53 June 2, 2009 QuoteWould you be so kind as to explain the difference for us? What, precisely, makes the chemical reaction of an explosion different from the chemical reaction of a "rapid burn?" Propagation speed, aka VOD (velocity Of Detonation). There are standards (yes, arbitrary but based on explosive performance) that have been established that separate detonations from deflagrations. I dont have my explosives handbooks here, but if you really want to know the m/s value where that split is done, I could look it up unless I gave all those books back when I left my job a couple years back.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #54 June 2, 2009 QuoteTo me, a 30' shipping container seemed a bit excessive. Now, admittedly that could be a 30' foot shipping container that also acted as his hobby room and where he hung out and did his reloading and maybe only a small section of it had significant amounts of ammo in it. Then again, maybe it was jam packed and every cubic inch was filled. Right, we don't know the details. Lots of reloaders do their work in garages or sheds. It can take up a lot of room, with a dedicated work bench, plus tools and supplies. Look at google maps, at the address listed in the news story: 19200 Ingomar Street, Reseda, California. Scroll around that area on the satellite view. There are a lot of large lots there, and a great many of them have multiple sheds of some type behind the main structure. So that 30' shipping container is not really out of place in that neighborhood. People may be judging this based upon their own concept of a residential neighborhood, and this one might actually be an industrial area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #55 June 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteWould you be so kind as to explain the difference for us? What, precisely, makes the chemical reaction of an explosion different from the chemical reaction of a "rapid burn?" Propagation speed, aka VOD (velocity Of Detonation). There are standards (yes, arbitrary but based on explosive performance) that have been established that separate detonations from deflagrations. I dont have my explosives handbooks here, but if you really want to know the m/s value where that split is done, I could look it up unless I gave all those books back when I left my job a couple years back. Thanks. With the help of search terms you provided, I was able to research a little bit more, and found that low explosives are explosives that deflagrate, and high explosives detonate. Deflagration occurs due to the thermal conductivity of the material, i.e. the combustion of a particular bit of the material heats and ignites adjacent bits. Detonation propagates via shock waves traversing the material, compressing the material enough to heat and ignite it. Deflagration occurs at subsonic speeds and the shock wave involved in detonation is supersonic, but I didn't see it explicitly stated that the speed of sound is an inherently critical speed that changes the manner that combustion propagates through the material. Assuming my understanding of the above is correct (please correct it if it isn't), then it would seem that gunpowder would be considered a low explosive material.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 130 #56 June 2, 2009 QuoteQuote . . . job of posting ridiculous anti-gun messages? Bill's example isn't anti-gun, it's anti-you-can-have-anything-in-any-quantities-you-want-in-a-residential-section. I think it's reasonable to restrict certain amounts of certain items because when they're gathered together in a pile, they're more dangerous than when spread out. This applies to a lot of substances. A gallon jug of pool chlorine is "fairly" harmless, but to have a 30' shipping container full of it in your backyard would be a concern. ---------------------------------------------------- that small amount of chlorine mixed with some brake fluid would get real interesting in a hurry any amount of chlorine and ammonia are another well known issueGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,523 #57 June 2, 2009 Quote Assuming my understanding of the above is correct (please correct it if it isn't), then it would seem that gunpowder would be considered a low explosive material. You seem to be correct. (although it may be that both of us are wrong) According to my Hazmat book, smokeless powder in quantities of less than 100lbs is classed as 4.1 - flammable solid. I can't find it definitively, but it seems that over 100lbs is classed 1.3 - explosives that have a fire hazard and either minor blast hazard, minor projectile hazard or both."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites winsor 236 #58 June 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteIt does not explode, it burns (very rapidly, but burn it does). Would you be so kind as to explain the difference for us? What, precisely, makes the chemical reaction of an explosion different from the chemical reaction of a "rapid burn?" It is the difference between detonation and deflagration. The basic principle is that the propellant should release just enough energy at a given time to keep the chamber pressure within limits while accelerating the projectile. Thus, as the projectile accelerates, the propellant continues to combust at a nonlinear rate to trade chemical for kinetic energy. One principle in Gas Dynamics is that between pressure vessels, the maxim speed of a fluid at the tightest constriction (like the bore) is Mach 1 for the fluid in question. The way we get around that is by the phase change between solid and vapor the whole way down the barrel; the faster it goes, the more chemical energy goes right to kinetic without increasing pressure. Propellants intended for high velocity projectiles typically have a "deterrent coating," which makes them a bitch to light and limits the released energy until everything has begun to accelerate. Replacing propellants with explosives is an effective way to booby trap ammunition. Firing a cartridge loaded with an RDX (cyclonite) based charge, such as composition B-4 or C-4, will blow up the breech and maim anyone unfortunate enough to be too close. It gets more complicated from there, but I assure you that, just because there is a "bang" involved, there need not be "explosives" at work. Without being contained, smokeless propellants in bulk burn with a most impressive "WHOOSH!" Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #59 June 3, 2009 QuoteAccording to my Hazmat book, smokeless powder in quantities of less than 100lbs is classed as 4.1 - flammable solid. And for comparison, here is another item that is also classified as hazmat 4.1: Matches. Reference: http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/hazmat/placards/class4-chemicals.html Yes, that's correct, ordinary matches, as used for lighting cigarettes or fires. I don't see anyone having conniption fits over people having dangerous matches in their homes! So... just how many matchbooks should you be allowed to store in your home? Should high-capacity matchbooks be banned? Should matchbooks be locked in a safe, with the striker material stored separately elsewhere? Should people be registered and licensed to own matches? Should parents be punished if their children get hold of their matches? Should you be limited to purchasing only one matchbook per month? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #60 June 3, 2009 >Should matchbooks be locked in a safe, with the striker material stored >separately elsewhere? Boxes of matches? No. 55 gallon drums of white phosphorous and phosphorus sesquisulfide? Perhaps. 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wolfriverjoe 1,523 #57 June 2, 2009 Quote Assuming my understanding of the above is correct (please correct it if it isn't), then it would seem that gunpowder would be considered a low explosive material. You seem to be correct. (although it may be that both of us are wrong) According to my Hazmat book, smokeless powder in quantities of less than 100lbs is classed as 4.1 - flammable solid. I can't find it definitively, but it seems that over 100lbs is classed 1.3 - explosives that have a fire hazard and either minor blast hazard, minor projectile hazard or both."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #58 June 2, 2009 QuoteQuoteIt does not explode, it burns (very rapidly, but burn it does). Would you be so kind as to explain the difference for us? What, precisely, makes the chemical reaction of an explosion different from the chemical reaction of a "rapid burn?" It is the difference between detonation and deflagration. The basic principle is that the propellant should release just enough energy at a given time to keep the chamber pressure within limits while accelerating the projectile. Thus, as the projectile accelerates, the propellant continues to combust at a nonlinear rate to trade chemical for kinetic energy. One principle in Gas Dynamics is that between pressure vessels, the maxim speed of a fluid at the tightest constriction (like the bore) is Mach 1 for the fluid in question. The way we get around that is by the phase change between solid and vapor the whole way down the barrel; the faster it goes, the more chemical energy goes right to kinetic without increasing pressure. Propellants intended for high velocity projectiles typically have a "deterrent coating," which makes them a bitch to light and limits the released energy until everything has begun to accelerate. Replacing propellants with explosives is an effective way to booby trap ammunition. Firing a cartridge loaded with an RDX (cyclonite) based charge, such as composition B-4 or C-4, will blow up the breech and maim anyone unfortunate enough to be too close. It gets more complicated from there, but I assure you that, just because there is a "bang" involved, there need not be "explosives" at work. Without being contained, smokeless propellants in bulk burn with a most impressive "WHOOSH!" Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #59 June 3, 2009 QuoteAccording to my Hazmat book, smokeless powder in quantities of less than 100lbs is classed as 4.1 - flammable solid. And for comparison, here is another item that is also classified as hazmat 4.1: Matches. Reference: http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/hazmat/placards/class4-chemicals.html Yes, that's correct, ordinary matches, as used for lighting cigarettes or fires. I don't see anyone having conniption fits over people having dangerous matches in their homes! So... just how many matchbooks should you be allowed to store in your home? Should high-capacity matchbooks be banned? Should matchbooks be locked in a safe, with the striker material stored separately elsewhere? Should people be registered and licensed to own matches? Should parents be punished if their children get hold of their matches? Should you be limited to purchasing only one matchbook per month? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #60 June 3, 2009 >Should matchbooks be locked in a safe, with the striker material stored >separately elsewhere? Boxes of matches? No. 55 gallon drums of white phosphorous and phosphorus sesquisulfide? Perhaps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
