rushmc 23
"Warrantless Wire Taping. Ah, Didnt the Left Condem Bush For Doing This?
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rushmc, in Speakers Corner
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Quote
I know there's no such thing. You can't make one. Efficiency could be improved but we're going to have to rethink power generation to achieve any real overall efficiency. We eventually quit rubbing sticks together to make fire. It's time to start evolving and quit with the technological nostalgia.
Yep, its time alright
Walking away on a flat or round Earth
rushmc 23
QuoteQuote
I know there's no such thing. You can't make one. Efficiency could be improved but we're going to have to rethink power generation to achieve any real overall efficiency. We eventually quit rubbing sticks together to make fire. It's time to start evolving and quit with the technological nostalgia.
Yep, its time alright
Walking away on a flat or round Earth
there is a cliff coming up, must be flat
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Ion01 2
there is a lot more involved with gitmo than just that. They didn't close it because it takes a bunch of money to do it. Also, he wanted to hold trials in the US for each person and if they weren't convicted they would be given full rights as citizens and released. Who thinks thats a good idea?
Obama has borrowed more money in the past 6 months than the government has borrowed in the past 30 years! And who did he borrow it from? The government borrowed it from itself even though they are in debt. How can they lend money they dont have? Basically they created money which will result in huge inflation which will destroy the economy! Its inescapable.
He has nationalized two of three of the biggest car producers in the US, 5 of the biggest US banks, and the largest insurance company in the world in nationalized. That is not what america was founded on. Thats no free enterprise. Its socialism and nationalism and if you don't know what happens the economy of countries which do this then learn history and current events.
He has put numerous tax frauds in office, one of them wrote the tax code.
We are in a financial crisis and he wants to tax everybody on thier carbon out put (cap and trade)....and no, it not just big business! Who pays your salary, who highers millions of people, who donates millions to charities, who provides jobs to people in countries where there are no jobs available? The government? No...big business! For them to remain profitable
As for tortue, you can't change the law and go back and prosecute someone for it. It like change the speed limit on a street then fining you for braking that limit a year ago. Also, all these people like that were claiming they didn't know did know about it. They got caught in thier lies and that why it has been dropped!
These same people claimed they didn't know about the AIG bonuses when they had put the provision in the stimulus to exempt the bonuses. Most were severance bonuses anyways. They then broke the constitution by taxing specific individuals! They then claimed the fixed the problem by paying the executives 1 dollar an hour. They were already getting that!! Thats why they had the bonuses coming! Besides, if they didn't get the bonuses they are getting less that minimum wage which would be illegal! For goodness sakes the ACORN, which recieved a bunch of stimulus money and is now involved in the census, put a bunch of random people on busses and gave them signs and put them on the front lawns of people from AIG and called the media to see the "protests"! How dare these evil rich people enjoy the money they worked so hard for! How dare they build huge companies which employ thousands and thousands of people! This is supposed to be a free country! It is the freedom to succeed or fail that makes the country great!
Obama is socializing medicare. Well, there was a reason that those that could would come to this country for medical care....because it was the best! Not because it was socialized but free enterprise! He is setting it up like the same system used in many European countries where people die because they are refused treatment...where their lives are given a value and if the treatment cost outwieghts thier value they are refused! Is that what we want? Is that true compasion? Obama admitted under his plan that a woman with cancer that was going to die at some point would be refused a hip replacement if she needed it but he, being RICH like he is, would buy his mother that hip replacement. This is actually an admission that his plan is not only heartless but puts a bigger gap between the rich and the poor!
Lets not forget that all this hooting and hollering that the rich people are the evil ones is totally hippocritical! All these politicians are millionares!! They have jets and huge homes too......whats the difference? Well, they got rich on your tax dollars but the business guys got rich through hard work! These politicians do little to nothing for society except grapple for more power where as the business men provide products which make your life better or more enjoyable. The politicians are the ones who take from you! You have to pay taxes, you don't have a choice! The business don't take it, you give it in exchange for something! Something you want! History has shown over and over that business does things better than government. Period! Amtrak ring a bell? Did you know there are business owned turnpikes in some states and that they are better quality and traffic flows better and the tolls are cheaper! Why are private schools better than public (this includes colleges)? Because free enterprise works better! If the school is bad you can put your kid in a better one if its private and the bad one looses money and either does better or shuts down. If the public school is bad you don't have a choice, the government says your kid must go to school and must go to school in their district. Under the government you have no control, under free enterprise you have the control!
Why should people be rewarded for being irresponsible with thier money? Why should they be rewarded for taking to large of a home loan? It is not a right to have a house! If they chose, and they did have the right to choose, to take a loan bigger than they could handle and they willingly signed the contract then they should be responsible and held to that contract! The bank didn't make them take the loan! How dare those evil banks loan money to someone who agreed to pay it back. How dare they give money to someone so they can have a house when the banks don't have to give anyone money! And why should the responsible and hard working be punished for being responsible and hard working!
Is it a valid excuse to say that, basically, obama didn't know what was awaiting him, that he got in office to find that all these things he promised he can't do. No, if he didn't have the experience and knowledge he was not fit for the job! They were lies told to get elected and they all continue to lie to retain thier power. Why else would he government higher a giant PR firm once they got in office? He hasn't kept a single promise, he ignores the constitution and freedom along with the rest of his administration. There is one thing that he said that he is doing. He said he would make a new nation....well he is. However, if I wanted a socialist and nationalist country there are plenty of other countries I could go to, and he could have gone to! We are supposed to be free and if you don't like it then leave!!!!!!!!!! There are plenty of other places for you to go!!! I would leave expect this used to be the only truely free country in the world where as people like obama and those who follow him are taking that freedom away! If you don't want that freedom then go to other countries. There are socialist ones, nationalist one, communist one, marxist ect. but we were the only free one! Thats why people come here and we are loosing that freedom! We have been loosing that freedom but now we are loosing it at light speed! This county is it. There is not another one and are you all so willing to loose it. To change this country into just another socialist/marksist country like so many other? If thats what you want then go to those countries and leave our freedom alone!!!!
PS. This administration has also ignored the threat of terrorism ( which they aren't allowed to use that word anymore) and nuclear threats and has recongized its own citizens that don't believe in socialism as a threat for their beliefs! Also, obama want to set up "detainment centers" where he can inprison people the government see as a threat but they haven't actually committed a crime. There would be no trial and no phone call and no lawyers. Just "detained" because you are a threat to the government. What a great leader!
Obama has borrowed more money in the past 6 months than the government has borrowed in the past 30 years! And who did he borrow it from? The government borrowed it from itself even though they are in debt. How can they lend money they dont have? Basically they created money which will result in huge inflation which will destroy the economy! Its inescapable.
He has nationalized two of three of the biggest car producers in the US, 5 of the biggest US banks, and the largest insurance company in the world in nationalized. That is not what america was founded on. Thats no free enterprise. Its socialism and nationalism and if you don't know what happens the economy of countries which do this then learn history and current events.
He has put numerous tax frauds in office, one of them wrote the tax code.
We are in a financial crisis and he wants to tax everybody on thier carbon out put (cap and trade)....and no, it not just big business! Who pays your salary, who highers millions of people, who donates millions to charities, who provides jobs to people in countries where there are no jobs available? The government? No...big business! For them to remain profitable
As for tortue, you can't change the law and go back and prosecute someone for it. It like change the speed limit on a street then fining you for braking that limit a year ago. Also, all these people like that were claiming they didn't know did know about it. They got caught in thier lies and that why it has been dropped!
These same people claimed they didn't know about the AIG bonuses when they had put the provision in the stimulus to exempt the bonuses. Most were severance bonuses anyways. They then broke the constitution by taxing specific individuals! They then claimed the fixed the problem by paying the executives 1 dollar an hour. They were already getting that!! Thats why they had the bonuses coming! Besides, if they didn't get the bonuses they are getting less that minimum wage which would be illegal! For goodness sakes the ACORN, which recieved a bunch of stimulus money and is now involved in the census, put a bunch of random people on busses and gave them signs and put them on the front lawns of people from AIG and called the media to see the "protests"! How dare these evil rich people enjoy the money they worked so hard for! How dare they build huge companies which employ thousands and thousands of people! This is supposed to be a free country! It is the freedom to succeed or fail that makes the country great!
Obama is socializing medicare. Well, there was a reason that those that could would come to this country for medical care....because it was the best! Not because it was socialized but free enterprise! He is setting it up like the same system used in many European countries where people die because they are refused treatment...where their lives are given a value and if the treatment cost outwieghts thier value they are refused! Is that what we want? Is that true compasion? Obama admitted under his plan that a woman with cancer that was going to die at some point would be refused a hip replacement if she needed it but he, being RICH like he is, would buy his mother that hip replacement. This is actually an admission that his plan is not only heartless but puts a bigger gap between the rich and the poor!
Lets not forget that all this hooting and hollering that the rich people are the evil ones is totally hippocritical! All these politicians are millionares!! They have jets and huge homes too......whats the difference? Well, they got rich on your tax dollars but the business guys got rich through hard work! These politicians do little to nothing for society except grapple for more power where as the business men provide products which make your life better or more enjoyable. The politicians are the ones who take from you! You have to pay taxes, you don't have a choice! The business don't take it, you give it in exchange for something! Something you want! History has shown over and over that business does things better than government. Period! Amtrak ring a bell? Did you know there are business owned turnpikes in some states and that they are better quality and traffic flows better and the tolls are cheaper! Why are private schools better than public (this includes colleges)? Because free enterprise works better! If the school is bad you can put your kid in a better one if its private and the bad one looses money and either does better or shuts down. If the public school is bad you don't have a choice, the government says your kid must go to school and must go to school in their district. Under the government you have no control, under free enterprise you have the control!
Why should people be rewarded for being irresponsible with thier money? Why should they be rewarded for taking to large of a home loan? It is not a right to have a house! If they chose, and they did have the right to choose, to take a loan bigger than they could handle and they willingly signed the contract then they should be responsible and held to that contract! The bank didn't make them take the loan! How dare those evil banks loan money to someone who agreed to pay it back. How dare they give money to someone so they can have a house when the banks don't have to give anyone money! And why should the responsible and hard working be punished for being responsible and hard working!
Is it a valid excuse to say that, basically, obama didn't know what was awaiting him, that he got in office to find that all these things he promised he can't do. No, if he didn't have the experience and knowledge he was not fit for the job! They were lies told to get elected and they all continue to lie to retain thier power. Why else would he government higher a giant PR firm once they got in office? He hasn't kept a single promise, he ignores the constitution and freedom along with the rest of his administration. There is one thing that he said that he is doing. He said he would make a new nation....well he is. However, if I wanted a socialist and nationalist country there are plenty of other countries I could go to, and he could have gone to! We are supposed to be free and if you don't like it then leave!!!!!!!!!! There are plenty of other places for you to go!!! I would leave expect this used to be the only truely free country in the world where as people like obama and those who follow him are taking that freedom away! If you don't want that freedom then go to other countries. There are socialist ones, nationalist one, communist one, marxist ect. but we were the only free one! Thats why people come here and we are loosing that freedom! We have been loosing that freedom but now we are loosing it at light speed! This county is it. There is not another one and are you all so willing to loose it. To change this country into just another socialist/marksist country like so many other? If thats what you want then go to those countries and leave our freedom alone!!!!
PS. This administration has also ignored the threat of terrorism ( which they aren't allowed to use that word anymore) and nuclear threats and has recongized its own citizens that don't believe in socialism as a threat for their beliefs! Also, obama want to set up "detainment centers" where he can inprison people the government see as a threat but they haven't actually committed a crime. There would be no trial and no phone call and no lawyers. Just "detained" because you are a threat to the government. What a great leader!
champu 1
QuoteQuote
He made a promise. With the stroke of a pen, he can release
the information as he promised.
The warrantless wiretapping should never have happened in the first place. If it hadn't, then there wouldn't be those questionable documents that might threaten state secrets. Do you see the difference in authorizing the illegal wiretapping and and the disposition of the resultant information?
I generally take care in not alienating people as a first order of business when I respond to their post no matter how hard I had to bite my little piece of emergency rawhide I keep next to my computer. It was particularly challenging here, these two sentences constitute my outlet, and now I'll just assume I'm misunderstanding you and ask for a clarification.
What "resultant information" are you referring to? There's three possible answers.
1) Details of how the wiretapping was pulled off technically which would have existed anyway making "resultant" a misnomer, making the information useless to a plaintiff, and making the task of explaining why it should stay a secret fairly trivial.
2) Details of how targets were selected (e.g. very "warentlessly") which, if the wiretapping shouldn't have happened in the first place as you argued, shouldn't be considered a state secret because the only reason to protect it is if you want to keep doing it.
3) The "goes-outs" of the whole ordeal (i.e. the information that was obtained) which, again if the wiretapping should never have happened, shouldn't be useful and thus shouldn't need to be kept secret.
What stumbling block do you think Obama is stumbling upon?
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuote
He made a promise. With the stroke of a pen, he can release
the information as he promised.
The warrantless wiretapping should never have happened in the first place. If it hadn't, then there wouldn't be those questionable documents that might threaten state secrets. Do you see the difference in authorizing the illegal wiretapping and and the disposition of the resultant information?
I generally take care in not alienating people as a first order of business when I respond to their post no matter how hard I had to bite my little piece of emergency rawhide I keep next to my computer. It was particularly challenging here, these two sentences constitute my outlet, and now I'll just assume I'm misunderstanding you and ask for a clarification.
What "resultant information" are you referring to? There's three possible answers.
1) Details of how the wiretapping was pulled off technically which would have existed anyway making "resultant" a misnomer, making the information useless to a plaintiff, and making the task of explaining why it should stay a secret fairly trivial.
2) Details of how targets were selected (e.g. very "warentlessly") which, if the wiretapping shouldn't have happened in the first place as you argued, shouldn't be considered a state secret because the only reason to protect it is if you want to keep doing it.
3) The "goes-outs" of the whole ordeal (i.e. the information that was obtained) which, again if the wiretapping should never have happened, shouldn't be useful and thus shouldn't need to be kept secret.
What stumbling block do you think Obama is stumbling upon?
The other dirtly little secrete they wish to ignore is the simple fact this was going on long before Bush came to office
Another dirtly little secrete it what they complain about is not what is really happening. Those complaining need to re-shape the actual wire tap process to keep the bitching going.
Dishonest at best.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Wow! I want to join the discussion but I think you somehow successfully referenced every thread posted in SC in the last three years. I have no idea where to start
You win
Quote
What stumbling block do you think Obama is stumbling upon?
I honestly have no idea why the Obama administration seems to think that the info can't be shared. Not a clue and I'm not going to guess. And for the record, I don't like the secrecy. But I don't think I'm getting my point across very well. Creating the problem and dealing with its aftermath are two different things. Sometimes there are no good solutions. Folks seem to want to rake Obama over the coals because he hasn't cleaned up Bush's messes in a satisfactory manner. The torture/abuse photo release issue is probably the best example of the conundrum. Releasing them is the right thing to do but you know that the media will have a field day with them, and the consequences would be severe.
I have a tendency to cut Obama some slack because he seems to acknowledge the problems caused by his predecessor and wants to rectify them. Whether or not he can do that is another story. Meanwhile, the Bush administration continues to state that they didn't do anything wrong. One party desires (possibly unacheivable) accountability, the other runs from it. There's the difference.
TomAiello 26
Quotethere is a cliff coming up, must be flat
Is it high enough to jump? Want to borrow a BASE rig?
-- Tom Aiello
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
rushmc 23
QuoteQuotethere is a cliff coming up, must be flat
Is it high enough to jump? Want to borrow a BASE rig?
I may go to bridge days this year but no thanks on the cliff
Thanks for the offer.. ... .. ... .. .. .. . .. . . I think
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Any violation of the Bill of Rights should be condemned by both sides.
rushmc 23
QuoteAny violation of the Bill of Rights should be condemned by both sides.
By any side.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
QuoteQuoteAny violation of the Bill of Rights should be condemned by both sides.
By any side.
Yes, you're right.
rushmc 23
QuoteQuoteQuoteAny violation of the Bill of Rights should be condemned by both sides.
By any side.
Yes, you're right.
No, you had it correct. You are always polite and my post could have easily been interpeted in the context to which you replied. Thanks though
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
QuoteDo you see the difference in authorizing the illegal wiretapping and and the disposition of the resultant information?
Yes, and amazingly you don't seem to grasp the topic at all.
The topic is not what Bush did. The topic is what Obama is not doing (anything that he promised in his campaign).
Not "how we got here", but what Obama "promised" to do about it.
Obama is not doing anything that he promised in his campaign.
That is the discussion.
Regardless of the source of the wiretaps, he promised to release
the information. (FOI requests are being rejected)
If Bush keeping it secret is wrong, then Obama keeping it secret is wrong.
Regardless of the legitimacy of the torture photos. Obama promised to release them. Now he won't.
Bush wanted to keep Gtmo open.
Leading DEM, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid called Gtmo "humane".
Other leading DEMs want a planned strategy (Barbara Boxer and
Dick Durbin for example).
Obama is doing exactly what Bush did. Why aren't the DEMs complaining about it? They're not. In fact, they are insisting.
TheAnvil 0
Perhaps we should flatter leftists in here with a torrent of 'Bush Did It First' responses to dodge any logical (albeit rare) point of argument they come up with?
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
billvon 3,120
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>Perhaps we should flatter leftists in here with a torrent of 'Bush Did It
>First' responses . . .
. . . to balance the tables for eight years of "Clinton did it first" replies to any argument the right wing could not refute? Unfortunately, that's pretty much a certainty.
>First' responses . . .
. . . to balance the tables for eight years of "Clinton did it first" replies to any argument the right wing could not refute? Unfortunately, that's pretty much a certainty.
Quote>Perhaps we should flatter leftists in here with a torrent of 'Bush Did It
>First' responses . . .
. . . to balance the tables for eight years of "Clinton did it first" replies to any argument the right wing could not refute? Unfortunately, that's pretty much a certainty.
Unfortunately?
During the Bush admin, there have been occurrences that are
pointed to as facts. People discuss them.
Unfortunately, the O admin can't be discussed. Avoidance at its finest. Even when the thread is specifically about Obama.
Example:
"Why won't O release the FOI information as he promised?
Just sign a paper."
"Bush wiretapped first."
"Ummm... yeah, so what? That has nothing to do with the
failure of Obama to follow through on what he promised."
"...shiny things... Bush..."
Obama is refusing to do what Bush refused to do.
So, why aren't the DEMs up in arms about it?
Most of it is as easy as a signature.
"Clinton - the best president that Osama ever had."
champu 1
I agree with the hypothesis mentioned earlier that Obama wanted to (and perhaps still wants to) bring about change, but is probably finding himself a bit overwhelmed. I too am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
I forget the gentleman's name as it was some time ago, but I attended a lecture by a defense department official who said, "Washington is like a river. And it starts way over there [pointing to one end of the room] and it flows all the way over there [pointing to the other end] and the odds are pretty good that if you jump in and start waving your arms, the little eddies you create will be gone 10 feet downstream. Some people actually make a career out of doing just that, but you have to be pretty smart to change the course of the river."
I forget the gentleman's name as it was some time ago, but I attended a lecture by a defense department official who said, "Washington is like a river. And it starts way over there [pointing to one end of the room] and it flows all the way over there [pointing to the other end] and the odds are pretty good that if you jump in and start waving your arms, the little eddies you create will be gone 10 feet downstream. Some people actually make a career out of doing just that, but you have to be pretty smart to change the course of the river."
QuoteI agree with the hypothesis mentioned earlier that Obama wanted to (and perhaps still wants to) bring about change, but is probably finding himself a bit overwhelmed.
That was the worst nice that I've ever seen.
Giving him a pass because he's overwhelmed isn't exactly
what you would want from a job reference at your next interview.
"He wasn't able to accomplish any of his goals because he
was a little over his head."
mnealtx 0
Over his head? Hardly... here's a pic of him taking Bo for a walk the other day...
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
billvon 3,120
>During the Bush admin, there have been occurrences that are pointed to
>as facts.People Left wingers discussed them.
And during the Bush Administration, right wingers defended him to the bitter end (or ignored the actions he took which were contrary to conservative principles, like running up a massive deficit.)
Now the very same people who were defending Bush are screaming "Why aren't democrats denouncing Obama? I mean, I didn't have the courage to denounce Bush for it - but why aren't they picking up the ball? WHY WHY WHY?"
The mirror would be a good place to ask that question.
>as facts.
And during the Bush Administration, right wingers defended him to the bitter end (or ignored the actions he took which were contrary to conservative principles, like running up a massive deficit.)
Now the very same people who were defending Bush are screaming "Why aren't democrats denouncing Obama? I mean, I didn't have the courage to denounce Bush for it - but why aren't they picking up the ball? WHY WHY WHY?"
The mirror would be a good place to ask that question.
champu 1
If you'll note, I very carefully used the weasel words of, "for the time being."
I think over Obama's term(s) we'll see some expanded social programs and limited improvements in government transparency as he promised, but it will probably take him his entire presidency, and it will all be very anti-climactic. I also think we'll see marked improvements in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but I will preemptively attribute those gains to Gates and Kayani rather than Obama.
I don't think Bush was a very good president and I think that Obama will be a very average one. I try not to get worked up about either of their performances. Boring, I know, but it is politics after all.
I know there's no such thing. You can't make one. Efficiency could be improved but we're going to have to rethink power generation to achieve any real overall efficiency. We eventually quit rubbing sticks together to make fire. It's time to start evolving and quit with the technological nostalgia.
Yep, its time alright
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
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