rushmc 23 #1 May 31, 2009 What goes around! http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/us_warrantless_wiretapping/2009/05/30/219744.html"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #2 May 31, 2009 "Change we can believe in" looks suspiciously like "more of the same."-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #3 May 31, 2009 Quote"Change we can believe in" looks suspiciously like "more of the same." And you expected anything else from a politician? All bullshit when they speak.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #4 May 31, 2009 Quote What goes around! http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/us_warrantless_wiretapping/2009/05/30/219744.html It's more like a white elephant gift. A turd sandwich wrapped up by the previous Administration. It's not like he's making turd sandwiches, it's just that now that he has it, he just has to hold on to them. Same goes for Gitmo and 99% of everything else.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #5 May 31, 2009 Quote Quote What goes around! http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/us_warrantless_wiretapping/2009/05/30/219744.html It's more like a white elephant gift. A turd sandwich wrapped up by the previous Administration. It's not like he's making turd sandwiches, it's just that now that he has it, he just has to hold on to them. Same goes for Gitmo and 99% of everything else. ...and everything else that President Obama then turned 180 on... From lobbyists on staff, to photos, to gitmo hearings, to ending Iraq occupation in 16 months, legal pursuit over interrogation, to (soon to be) taxes under $250K/year (already noted at $235K)...wait for the next budget, FY2010 is right around the corner, and you know the "earmarks" will be there....take your pick. The reality is that the President is finding it hard to bring forth the real ideals of his "pie in the sky" Utopian vision. He came from G20 with nothing, no additional NATO commitments to Afghanistan. I don't fault him for these realizations, but do fault him for not changing tactics to keep his momentum going. Can you really tell me that when you see President Obama speaking that you're hearing anything really new? The tune hasn't changed from the campaign, and the delivery is already stale. Bottom line, he's realized that the transparency he wishes he could deliver, while possibly achieving "amends" for the government's performance, does not justify the harm it may cause. The job just got harder, tougher, and he has to trudge a difficult path. He has three, maybe six months left of being able to claim "inheritance"...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #6 May 31, 2009 Quote He has three, maybe six months left of being able to claim "inheritance"... I dunno, I'd say he has forever to say that the messes left by the previous Administration are still messes left by the previous Administration. Ding him ALL you want to on things he's actually done. I'll continue to cut him some slack on the crap he was handed. It may not be 100% what I'd like. All of that said, it's entirely possible that a team of people are in fact working behind the scenes to do quite a bit more than simply release photos, wiretap info and whatnot. My guess is it takes a shit load of time to wade through the shit pile of mess left from eight years of forty three.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #7 May 31, 2009 Not to mention the shit pile of mess left from eight years of forty two.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #8 May 31, 2009 Quote Not to mention the shit pile of mess left from eight years of forty two. Obviously you're talking about the shit pile high stack of money he left and forty three squandered. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #9 May 31, 2009 QuoteWire Taping You mean this? clicky QuoteCondem You don't mean this, do you? clicky QuoteDidnt Don't forget this! clicky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #10 May 31, 2009 Quote Quote Wire Taping You mean this? clicky Quote Condem You don't mean this, do you? clicky Quote Didnt Don't forget this! clicky So lets see...... You most likely looked over the article right? OK, we can go with that, and the words, (though missed spelled cause I should not sit at the coputer after a few Negra Modelos) were close enought so, when added to looking at the link, you had a good idea of what I was posting about! So, that must mean YOU have nothing of any substance to come back with, so then, by extension, you are now giving Obama a pass (on a topic you condemed Bush for) are are now playing the perfect lefty political hack! Did I get this correct?Ya, I did!!!! "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #11 May 31, 2009 QuoteSame goes for Gitmo and 99% of everything else. You mean like sending more troops to Afghanistan? Come on, Quade, Obama is a big boy. He's the one calling the shots now. I'm sure the most powerful man in the world doesn't need to point fingers at someone else. I'm sorry (genuinely so, in this case) that your guy hasn't lived up to your expectations (or his promises). But that's no one's fault but his own.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #12 May 31, 2009 QuoteQuoteSame goes for Gitmo and 99% of everything else. You mean like sending more troops to Afghanistan? Ding him on Afghanistan if you want, but remember why it is he wants to go back there. The US, under GWB, went in there and busted it up pretty good. Then (and this is the part I'll never forgive GWB on), just when we may have gotten close to bin Laden, we diverted most of the troops it Iraq. The US does in fact owe a bit to the people to sweep up some of the mess, just as we have done in Iraq. Once a government is in place we should get the hell out. We did that with Iraq, but so far we haven't done that to Afghanistan. We left them swinging in the breeze.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #13 June 1, 2009 Quote Ding him ALL you want to on things he's actually done. Nobody gets to define a limitation on what topics are "off limits". He can be "dinged on" any topic where he fails to deliver or, in most of the cases, turns 180. There are two types of things that are occurring. Things that he cannot do anything about, in a quick fashion. (Like the economy) Things that he has complete control over, but refuses to do. ("Transparency". He promised to change Gtmo, wiretapping, release torture photos.... ad nauseum) So, what has he actually done? Made promises during his campaign that are easily done, but he refuses to follow through on. Gtmo. There is no magic there. There is no difficult reason why he cannot follow through on his campaign promise except... - it was all campaign BS from the beginning. - a 90-6 vote -his own party will not support him because reasonable people who act with common sense do not want them in the US. - the DEMs never believed it was a good idea. (Don't worry, nobody was expecting the truth. Falsehood is the only party platform that they really have.) He could just say, "release the photos as I promised to the ACLU". He could just say, "release the wiretap information as I promised". What is he being "dinged on" ? Making BS campaign promises to get elected and then not following through on them. There are some that he has complete, immediate control over. The amazing part is that when Bush did it, it was bad. Now that O is doing it, it is good because he has "secret" reasons. Oh wait... people "dinged" Bush for doing things with secret reasons, but it was called bad then. So, once again, O duplicates Bush. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #14 June 1, 2009 QuoteI'm sure the most powerful man in the world doesn't need to point fingers at someone else. But he does because his political party is all about victimhood."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #15 June 1, 2009 Quote The amazing part is that when Bush did it, it was bad. Now that O is doing it, it is good because he has "secret" reasons. What you guys seem to be criticizing Obama for is that he has not been able to adequately deal with Bush's mistakes as quickly as we would like. Iraq = Bush's mistake. Should not have gone in. Afghanistan = Bush's mistake. Should not have left. Wiretapping - Should not have happened in the first place. Gitmo - Never should have been built (and the legislators need to man up and use the prisons in their backyards). Torture photos - We should not have tortured in the first place (but releasing the photos now would be a bad idea). Saying that his inability to un-fuck the US from the Bush legacy in a timely manner does not mean that he approves of Bush policies or that Bush was doing the right thing. It means that these were major failures and figuring out how to best deal with them is a difficult task. That's one of the reasons that I used to say that someone like George Allen deserved to inherit the Bush legacy (doubtful that the US would have survived that scenario however). I think that most of us would agree that killing your pet is not a good idea. But suppose someone runs over your pet with a tractor and it's not dead yet. Is it ok to kill it now? You'll cry when you do it but you never should have put that idiot in the driver's seat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #16 June 1, 2009 QuoteQuote The amazing part is that when Bush did it, it was bad. Now that O is doing it, it is good because he has "secret" reasons. What you guys seem to be criticizing Obama for is that he has not been able to adequately deal with Bush's mistakes as quickly as we would like. Iraq = Bush's mistake. Should not have gone in. Afghanistan = Bush's mistake. Should not have left. Wiretapping - Should not have happened in the first place. Gitmo - Never should have been built (and the legislators need to man up and use the prisons in their backyards). Torture photos - We should not have tortured in the first place (but releasing the photos now would be a bad idea). Saying that his inability to un-fuck the US from the Bush legacy in a timely manner does not mean that he approves of Bush policies or that Bush was doing the right thing. It means that these were major failures and figuring out how to best deal with them is a difficult task. That's one of the reasons that I used to say that someone like George Allen deserved to inherit the Bush legacy (doubtful that the US would have survived that scenario however). I think that most of us would agree that killing your pet is not a good idea. But suppose someone runs over your pet with a tractor and it's not dead yet. Is it ok to kill it now? You'll cry when you do it but you never should have put that idiot in the driver's seat. You post indicates to me you still think he will change any of this. If I am correct, you need to know you are not. They aint fuck ups, he knows it know but his change speach has screwed him over yet agiain. But go ahead and keep the blame on Bush. No one likes to see their savior fail"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #17 June 1, 2009 Quote ...They aint fuck ups, .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #18 June 1, 2009 You mean that living up to his promises and principles wold be, , hard. Get over it, cupcakes. You don't get elected POTUS to do easy things. Make the hard choices and stick to your guns. Saying that the last guy made it "too hard" for you to change things is a pretty lame excuse.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #19 June 1, 2009 QuoteSaying that the last guy made it "too hard" for you to change things is a pretty lame excuse. nonsense, it's SOP - since one guy is in only 4 or 8 years (typ), then the position is defined by blaming the status quo wait until the Dems decide that 8 years "just isn't enough" and they install the king for life - that's the end goal. Free everything for everybody - yay ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #20 June 1, 2009 Maybe you have a point. I mean it's been almost five months already and we're still using foreign oil. Where is this "future" that he keeps talking about? He needs to make some difficult decisions and deliver. I want my efficient electrical grid NOW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #21 June 1, 2009 QuoteMaybe you have a point. I mean it's been almost five months already and we're still using foreign oil. Where is this "future" that he keeps talking about? He needs to make some difficult decisions and deliver. I want my efficient electrical grid NOW! More to the point, where is the Gitmo closure and reduction in overseas troop levels that he promised during the campaign? I'm a Ron Paul voter, but I'll admit there were times during the campaign when I was attracted to Obama's anti-war and pro-due process rhetoric. I felt like this was the first time in quite a while that I was going to be reasonably ok with whoever won the election, because if Obama won, at least he'd be with me on those foreign policy (and domestic things like wiretapping and military tribunals) type issues (and if McCain won, I'd like his domestic economic policies better than the alternative). I'm pretty disappointed to learn that this is not actually the case.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #22 June 1, 2009 Quote More to the point, where is the Gitmo closure and reduction in overseas troop levels that he promised during the campaign? He can't make legislators vote against their NIMBY tendencies. I wish he could in this instance. As for troop levels, I'm guessing that he's still trying to make that happen. But that doesn't mean that he can push a "recall" button and bring them home, especially when things are going to shit in Afghanistan and with our "allies" in Pakistan. When you make a mess I think that you have a responsibility to help clean it up. It sucks, but I think that's the right thing to do. I'll be interested to see how the last 11/12ths of his first term pan out. He's got some good ideas and I'd like to see some progress in those directions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #23 June 1, 2009 QuoteWhat you guys seem to be criticizing Obama for is that he has not been able to adequately deal with Bush's mistakes as quickly as we would like. Ummm... no. You apparently didn't read what I wrote. QuoteThings that he has complete control over, but refuses to do. ("Transparency". He promised to change Gtmo, wiretapping, release torture photos.... ad nauseum) There are things that he promised, and he can do with the stroke of a pen, and he refuses to do. We are not talking about difficult or time-consuming tasks. QuoteWiretapping - Should not have happened in the first place. He made a promise. With the stroke of a pen, he can release the information as he promised. QuoteGitmo - Never should have been built (and the legislators need to man up and use the prisons in their backyards). Nope. Gtmo is perfect. There is no rational reason for moving the prisoners from one good prison to another in the US. Rational people know that. The DEM leadership acknowledges that. His promise was just campaign BS. QuoteTorture photos - We should not have tortured in the first place (but releasing the photos now would be a bad idea). Releasing the photos is a bad idea? ...b-b-but... that is what Bush was criticized for saying. Now O is saying it and you are saying it. But when Bush refused to release the photos, it was bad, right? The problem lies in this, O promised to release them. With the stroke of a pen, they are released. He refuses. Just to be clear - The objection is this - he made campaign promises that were clearly poor ideas. Now he is backing off doing even the simplest of them, even though most of them are just a signature to make happen. QuoteI think that most of us would agree that killing your pet is not a good idea. But suppose someone runs over your pet with a tractor and it's not dead yet. Is it ok to kill it now? You'll cry when you do it but you never should have put that idiot in the driver's seat. Was your pet a bunny? Was he lost on that bunny trail? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #24 June 1, 2009 QuoteGtmo is perfect. There is no rational reason for moving the prisoners from one good prison to another in the US. Sure there is. Gitmo is perhaps the most expensive place we could operate a prison. I'd much rather put them somewhere cheaper. Quote...he made campaign promises that were clearly poor ideas. Not at all. Promising those things was a great idea. It got him lots of votes. That's what campaign promises are for. The notion of actually doing the things he promised? Well, that's a bit different.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #25 June 2, 2009 I want my efficient electrical grid NOW! There is no such thing, unless your freedom to chose when and how much matters to you. Then it may come to pass.."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
