Should We Waterboard For Information

[billvon 3,116]

>So what about a two stage approach...... try the your option and if it produces
>then that's fine but if it doesn't then move to different techniques.

Here's an interesting interview in which that basic technique was tried. The speakers are Mike Ritz, a former interrogation instructor and Tony Lagouranis, a former army interrogator in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

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TONY LAGOURANIS: . . . Even when you're dealing with someone who does have information, I think that torturing them is the worst possible way to go. The FBI does not use torture and they have a 90% success rate in their interrogation practices, and I saw nothing close to that in Iraq using any of these techniques.

MIKE RITZ: I agree with Tony completely. I'd like to point out this isn't guesswork, we know this to be fact. If you look at the case of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi who was initially captured and cooperated with FBI interrogations. They were using report building techniques, they were giving him the incentive of promising that his wife and family could come to the United States. And this guy, who was very guilty, was cooperating, giving us actual intelligence information. What happened was that the CIA came in, asked if they could use more enhanced interrogation techniques on the individual and through rendition took him to a foreign country. They utilized those techniques. At first he clammed up completely, and then ultimately he linked al-Qaeda to Iraq and claimed that Iraq had trained al-Qaeda in weapons of mass destruction, which we now know to be completely false information and some would speculate sparked the war.
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So to answer your question literally, your scenario would result in false intelligence which could get americans killed.

[ryoder 1,590]

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It also shows that Mancow at least stands behind his convictions, unlike that pussy Hannity.

And on the topic of Mancow and Hannity:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/23/oblermann-charity-mancow/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[1969912 0]

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It also shows that Mancow at least stands behind his convictions, unlike that pussy Hannity.

And on the topic of Mancow and Hannity:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/23/oblermann-charity-mancow/

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".....torture enthusiast Sean Hannity...."

No further reading necessary...

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Butters 0]

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You all are so intent of attacking those with whom you do not agree.

Have you looked in the mirror lately? Are you laughing because I want to know if I'm laughing with you or at you ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[billvon 3,116]

>No further reading necessary...

Y'know, that approach could explain why a lot of right wingers don't know much about the issue!

[SpeedRacer 1]

What about using augury?? You slaughter a chicken & look at the entrails.

Hey, if it saves even one American life, it would be worth it!!

Speed Racer
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[rushmc 23]

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>No further reading necessary...

Y'know, that approach could explain why a lot of right wingers don't know much about the issue!

A very good demonstration of the arogance of the left!

Thanks billvon

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,116]

Perhaps that's the big difference between liberals and conservatives - liberals don't stop reading when they see something they disagree with.

[tbrown 26]

I'd like to waterboard Dick cheney, to find out what he and "the guys" from Enron were discussing for national energy policy in 2001, when they were fucking California in the ass with rate hikes and rolling blackuts.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[ryoder 1,590]

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I'd like to waterboard Dick cheney...

You aren't the only one that would like to do that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoqmH49VBC0

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[rushmc 23]

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Perhaps that's the big difference between liberals and conservatives - liberals don't stop reading when they see something they disagree with.

Do you recall YOUR definition of a bigot or a bigoted position?

Maybe you should go back and re-read whay YOU posted

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[likearock 2]

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Byt the way, I , me am not talking about torture. I am talking about water boarding. Very different

As I have stated before, torture is a proper superset of water boarding. In other words, water boarding is torture, despite any semantical difference that Cheney, Yoo, et al. have conjured up.

Most resonable people do not agree with you.

So if the North Koreans waterboarded an American soldier 50 times, you would not consider that torture?

[Butters 0]

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So if the North Koreans waterboarded an American soldier 50 times, you would not consider that torture?

According to him it wouldn't be considered torture (and would barely be considered a physical assault) if I did it to him ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[dreamdancer 0]

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A former top interrogator is responding forcefully to the case Dick Cheney made on Thursday in favor of torture (what the former VP and his allies refer to as "enhanced interrogation methods.")

Brave New Films released a short video Tuesday of Matthew Alexander taking apart Cheney's argument piece by piece. Alexander, who uses a pseudonym for security reasons, was a 14-year military interrogator who oversaw more than a thousand interrogations and conducted more than 300 in Iraq himself. He led the interrogation team that scored one of the United States' most high-profile captures, that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and he did it using traditional methods.

Alexander easily takes down Cheney's arguments. The most immediate blow Alexander strikes is, of course, his obvious success, which undercuts Cheney's case for more brutal techniques. Alexander also engages on the level of principle. For Cheney, the suggestion that torture is a poor strategy because it aids terrorist recruitment is nothing more than old-fashioned blame-America-first cowardice.

"After a familiar fashion, it excuses the violent and blames America for the evil that others do," said Cheney.

The president and others who have condemned torture don't say that it "excuses the violent." Rather, they say it makes a violent reaction more likely -- and Alexander backed them up.

"At the prison where I conducted interrogations," responded Alexander, "we heard day in and day out, foreign fighters who had been captured state that the number one reason that they had come to fight in Iraq was because of torture and abuse, what had happened at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib."

Alexander put the number making this claim at 90 percent.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/#140244

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[rushmc 23]

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A former top interrogator is responding forcefully to the case Dick Cheney made on Thursday in favor of torture (what the former VP and his allies refer to as "enhanced interrogation methods.")

Brave New Films released a short video Tuesday of Matthew Alexander taking apart Cheney's argument piece by piece. Alexander, who uses a pseudonym for security reasons, was a 14-year military interrogator who oversaw more than a thousand interrogations and conducted more than 300 in Iraq himself. He led the interrogation team that scored one of the United States' most high-profile captures, that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and he did it using traditional methods.

Alexander easily takes down Cheney's arguments. The most immediate blow Alexander strikes is, of course, his obvious success, which undercuts Cheney's case for more brutal techniques. Alexander also engages on the level of principle. For Cheney, the suggestion that torture is a poor strategy because it aids terrorist recruitment is nothing more than old-fashioned blame-America-first cowardice.

"After a familiar fashion, it excuses the violent and blames America for the evil that others do," said Cheney.

The president and others who have condemned torture don't say that it "excuses the violent." Rather, they say it makes a violent reaction more likely -- and Alexander backed them up.

"At the prison where I conducted interrogations," responded Alexander, "we heard day in and day out, foreign fighters who had been captured state that the number one reason that they had come to fight in Iraq was because of torture and abuse, what had happened at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib."

Alexander put the number making this claim at 90 percent.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/#140244

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,588]

What basis do you have for disagreeing with at least that person's opinion? If it's that he says torture is less effective, what are your qualifications for saying it's better?

It's OK to say that your experts disagree with his experts. But normally you should back up your statement with some kind of data.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[dreamdancer 0]

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Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'.

At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.

Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.

The graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[idrankwhat 0]

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If we could have used waterboard "torture" on one, two, 10 terrorists in advance of 9/11, and have saved those 3000 plus lives, would have it been "ok"?

First off, you're assuming that you know you have the right person.
Secondly, you're assuming that the torture would elicit information that would result in saving those lives.
Thirdly, you're not taking into consideration the lives that would be lost fighting an enemy that is attacking us because we committed torture.

So, if torture might save your kid's life but will most likely(as most experts agree) cause two more, would you do it? And now, using the same scenario, would you expect your government to do it?

[ryoder 1,590]

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Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'.

At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.

Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.

The graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html

Some googling turns up the same three photos at various sites.

NSFW:http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[dreamdancer 0]

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A British man who spent more than two years in an Iraqi jail has told the Guardian that he was abandoned by the British government and feared it would leave him to die.

In his first interview since being released, Mohammed Hussein said the Foreign Office failed to help him while he was tortured and abused.

Hussein claims he endured beatings, threats to kill him and rape his wife, and attempts to pull his fingernails out unless he confessed to being a terrorist or a British spy.

He arrived back in Britain this month after 27 months in custody. An Iraqi judge convicted Hussein in 2007 of terrorist activity after a 10-minute trial. He was freed last month after being granted a pardon by an Iraqi appeal court.

Campaigners and a Labour MP have criticised the government, which refused to help until late last year, leaving him at the mercy of the Iraqi judicial system which Amnesty International says is known to be deeply flawed.

Hussein, 31, was granted asylum in Britain in 2000 after fleeing persecution by the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein. He set up his own hair salon in Birmingham, married in 2003, and had a son in 2005.

He said his nightmare began in 2007 when he went to Iraq to bring his severely ill mother to Britain for life-saving medical treatment. The unrest in Iraq had left his family homeless and they had moved to Najaf, in central Iraq.

There, Hussein and his family got caught up in the middle of a battle between Iraqi government forces and members of a Shia cult called the Soldiers of Heaven. In January 2007 Iraqi forces killed more than 250 people after a battle outside Najaf against alleged members of the Soldiers of Heaven. Hussein's sister and mother were among those who died.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/29/briton-torture-iraq-jail

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[rhys 0]

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Should We Waterboard For Information...

...Arrogance and ambition are a dangerous combination. Especially when you throw in a dose of stupid!

Interesting sig. line considering your assumption of 'we' on an international website, refers to americans only?

Nice 1

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 3,116]

Ruh-roh! More people denying that torture (or "enhanced interrogation") works. This is from Ricardo Sanchez, who will no doubt now be labeled a terrorist-coddling traitor by the Limbaughs:

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Sitting on a panel moderated by Rachel Maddow last night, retired Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. commander in Iraq from 2003-2004, called for a truth commission to investigate Bush-era interrogation and torture tactics. The Huffington Post’s Jack Hidary reports:

The General described the failures at all levels of civilian and military command that led to the abuses in Iraq, “and that is why I support the formation of a truth commission.”

The General went on to say that, “during my time in Iraq there was not one instance of actionable intelligence that came out of these interrogation techniques.”
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[Coreece 190]

If you have to torture, you're as WEAK as they come....it's pathetic.

get a brain.....

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...