Should We Waterboard For Information

[billvon 3,116]

>What about what I asked?

If someone does not talk using a method that works, using one that doesn't work isn't a good idea IMO - regardless of any moral issues.

If you cannot open your main parachute, is it better to fly over to someone else, grab them and thus land with their parachute? After all, to someone who knows nothing about parachuting, that might seem like a very good idea - and such tricks have been performed in the movies many times successfully. Indeed, such a method is actually suggested in at least one book on how to survive bad situations.

Or should you open your reserve, because that's been proven pretty thoroughly to be a good idea?

[Rstanley0312 1]

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>What about what I asked?

If someone does not talk using a method that works, using one that doesn't work isn't a good idea IMO - regardless of any moral issues.

If you cannot open your main parachute, is it better to fly over to someone else, grab them and thus land with their parachute? After all, to someone who knows nothing about parachuting, that might seem like a very good idea - and such tricks have been performed in the movies many times successfully. Indeed, such a method is actually suggested in at least one book on how to survive bad situations.

Or should you open your reserve, because that's been proven pretty thoroughly to be a good idea?

You are assuming it never works? How can you do that?

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[billvon 3,116]

>You are assuming it never works? How can you do that?

I didn't say it never works. Like flying over and grabbing someone in freefall, there is a chance that it will work. An almost infinitesimal chance, true, but it's there.

But the smart money is still on opening your reserve - because that's been proven to work.

[wmw999 2,588]

No one is saying it never works. But consistently it averages worse information than other forms of questioning.

Yeah, you'll get more information. But if that information is no good, then what have you gained other than the satisfaction of quantity? Well, maybe the satisfaction of kicking waterboarding the shit out of someone too

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

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>Most resonable people do not agree with you.

Actually, they do. 71% of americans think waterboarding is torture. It's only the Cheney dead-enders who play such semantic games.

You are confused. We are talking about reasonable people. The numbers mean nothing. FCS look who we just elected

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ryoder 1,590]

This just in: It turns out there is a very simple way to convince "conservatives" who don't believe waterboarding is torture, and it only takes six seconds to change their minds:

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/conservative-radio-hosts-waterboarded/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[quade 4]

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This just in: It turns out there is a very simple way to convince "conservatives" who don't believe waterboarding is torture, and it only takes six seconds to change their minds:

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/05/conservative-radio-hosts-waterboarded/

Only if you can get them on it to begin with. Some of them just puss out. HANNITY.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,116]

> We are talking about reasonable people.

Which in your world are the 29% of people who agree with you?

[rushmc 23]

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> We are talking about reasonable people.

Which in your world are the 29% of people who agree with you?

So you are saying that only the majority can be the best informed.

Now that is a classic to remember

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jcd11235 0]

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> We are talking about reasonable people.

Which in your world are the 29% of people who agree with you?

So you are saying that only the majority can be the best informed.

Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself to be better informed on this particular topic than [nerdgirl]?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[dreamdancer 0]

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>Most resonable people do not agree with you.

Actually, they do. 71% of americans think waterboarding is torture. It's only the Cheney dead-enders who play such semantic games.

You are confused. We are talking about reasonable people. The numbers mean nothing. FCS look who we just elected

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Chicago radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller decided he'd get himself waterboarded to prove the technique wasn't torture.

It didn't turn out that way. "Mancow," in fact, lasted just six or seven seconds before crying foul. Apparently, the experience went pretty badly -- "Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop," according to NBC Chicago.

"The average person can take this for 14 seconds," Marine Sergeant Clay South told his audience before he was waterboarded on air. "He's going to wiggle, he's going to scream, he's going to wish he never did this."

Mancow was set on a 7-foot long table with his legs elevated and his feet tied.

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "

The upshot? "It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow told listeners. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

"Absolutely. I mean that's drowning," he added later. "It is the feeling of drowning."

"If I knew it was gonna be this bad, I would not have done it," he said.

The 42-year-old radio host is no stranger to controversy. In 2005, he was maligned for saying that then-Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean was "vile," "bloodthirsty," "evil" and "should be kicked out of America."

http://www.alternet.org/rights/140205/right-wing_radio_host_gets_waterboarded%2C_and_lasts_six_seconds_before_saying_it%27s_torture/

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[tkhayes 348]

the poll is meaningless. Obviously ANYONE would torture ANYONE if they knew for sure it would save lives, or preempt 9/11.

The problem is that we DO NOT actually know who knows what, and we justify torture as a means to get information that we 'hope' will be useful.

Torturing Ted Bundy might find more victims bodies, but it might not. Are you going to justify torturing him (and others) in 'hope' that you get information. I mean after all, we KNOW he is and was a killer. So why not?

If you torture, you will eventually torture innocent people. If you have capital punishment, we will eventually execute an innocent person. And yes, I agree that there are people on this earth and in this country that deserve death and do not deserve to breathe the same air as you and me. But I believe more strongly that we can NEVER execute an innocent person - but we have, many times in the past.

So what do you want your standards to be? Acceptable that we occasionally torture or execute someone who is innocent?

What if it is YOUR children that are being tortured or executed, instead of 'saved' by torture.

It is a slippery slope and we are supposed to be better than that. At least I am better than that.

Augusto Pinochet and Stalin come to mind. Sorry but I want no part of it.

“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security” - Ben Franklin

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

and dozens of others. I prefer a free country.

[rushmc 23]

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> We are talking about reasonable people.

Which in your world are the 29% of people who agree with you?

So you are saying that only the majority can be the best informed.

Out of curiosity, do you consider yourself to be better informed on this particular topic than [nerdgirl]?

No

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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>Most resonable people do not agree with you.

Actually, they do. 71% of americans think waterboarding is torture. It's only the Cheney dead-enders who play such semantic games.

You are confused. We are talking about reasonable people. The numbers mean nothing. FCS look who we just elected

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Chicago radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller decided he'd get himself waterboarded to prove the technique wasn't torture.

It didn't turn out that way. "Mancow," in fact, lasted just six or seven seconds before crying foul. Apparently, the experience went pretty badly -- "Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop," according to NBC Chicago.

"The average person can take this for 14 seconds," Marine Sergeant Clay South told his audience before he was waterboarded on air. "He's going to wiggle, he's going to scream, he's going to wish he never did this."

Mancow was set on a 7-foot long table with his legs elevated and his feet tied.

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "

The upshot? "It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow told listeners. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

"Absolutely. I mean that's drowning," he added later. "It is the feeling of drowning."

"If I knew it was gonna be this bad, I would not have done it," he said.

The 42-year-old radio host is no stranger to controversy. In 2005, he was maligned for saying that then-Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean was "vile," "bloodthirsty," "evil" and "should be kicked out of America."

http://www.alternet.org/rights/140205/right-wing_radio_host_gets_waterboarded%2C_and_lasts_six_seconds_before_saying_it%27s_torture/

Love you web site
But thanks, proves it works without killing or hurting
Therefore, not torture

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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the poll is meaningless. Obviously ANYONE would torture ANYONE if they knew for sure it would save lives, or preempt 9/11.

The problem is that we DO NOT actually know who knows what, and we justify torture as a means to get information that we 'hope' will be useful.

Torturing Ted Bundy might find more victims bodies, but it might not. Are you going to justify torturing him (and others) in 'hope' that you get information. I mean after all, we KNOW he is and was a killer. So why not?

If you torture, you will eventually torture innocent people. If you have capital punishment, we will eventually execute an innocent person. And yes, I agree that there are people on this earth and in this country that deserve death and do not deserve to breathe the same air as you and me. But I believe more strongly that we can NEVER execute an innocent person - but we have, many times in the past.

So what do you want your standards to be? Acceptable that we occasionally torture or execute someone who is innocent?

What if it is YOUR children that are being tortured or executed, instead of 'saved' by torture.

It is a slippery slope and we are supposed to be better than that. At least I am better than that.

Augusto Pinochet and Stalin come to mind. Sorry but I want no part of it.

“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security” - Ben Franklin

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

and dozens of others. I prefer a free country.

They only way the point is being made here is under the premise that WB is torture. I do not think we should torture
I do think we can use water boarding

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Butters 0]

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proves it works without killing or hurting
Therefore, not torture

Can I waterboard you? According to you it won't even hurt you ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[rushmc 23]

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proves it works without killing or hurting
Therefore, not torture

Can I waterboard you? According to you it won't even hurt you ...

You all are so intent of attacking those with whom you do not agree.

Stupid strawman in any event.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dreamdancer 0]

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proves it works without killing or hurting
Therefore, not torture

Can I waterboard you? According to you it won't even hurt you ...

You all are so intent of attacking those with whom you do not agree.

Stupid strawman in any event.

who's a stupid strawman?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[jcd11235 0]

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They only way the point is being made here is under the premise that WB is torture. I do not think we should torture
I do think we can use water boarding

Unfortunately, your game of semantics does not change the fact the water boarding is torture. No amount of denial by you or Cheney will change that.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rushmc 23]

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They only way the point is being made here is under the premise that WB is torture. I do not think we should torture
I do think we can use water boarding

Unfortunately, your game of semantics does not change the fact the water boarding is torture. No amount of denial by you or Cheney will change that.

Semantics? Fact?

I have been quite clear. Torture? No! Damed unpleasant? Yes, as it needed to be in the case of the three murdering bastards who were after more lives. The debate is being has at this level because Obama, Pelosi,et al were going for political points. Country be damed. Cheney called and raised her, she and Obama now have to fold or lose the hand.

Bush and Cheney save lives yet to be counted.


I far as I am concerned you can keep you good time rock n roll feel good ideas and go to the place you want this world be. Why? Cause it never can be. Evil has to be dealt with. And evil is not us....

I am not intimidated by your comments or nose in the air atttitude. Save it for somebody with less conviction than I.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[jcd11235 0]

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I have been quite clear. Torture? No!

Like you say, Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about.

Those reasonable people who are better informed than you w/r/t this particular topic seem to all disagree with you and acknowledge that water boarding is indeed a form of torture.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,116]

>Yes, as it needed to be in the case of the three murdering bastards who were
>after more lives.

This is exactly the problem with waterboarding, that there are people who feel that the prisoners are "murdering bastards" who deserve to suffer. People who would put their desire for vengeance over the desire to get good intelligence do not belong in interrogation rooms. And if their thirst for revenge means that we get bad intelligence and americans die, they belong in prison.

>Bush and Cheney save lives yet to be counted.

You may not be able to count them but we can count these:

9/11: 3000 civilians dead
Iraq:: 92,000 civilians dead

[billvon 3,116]

> I do not think we should torture. I do think we can use water boarding

Funny how even the staunchest supporters of waterboarding change their minds when they experience it themselves:

==================
And so it went Friday morning when WLS radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller decided to subject himself to the controversial practice of waterboarding live on his show.

Mancow decided to tackle the divisive issue head on -- actually it was head down, while restrained and reclining.

"I want to find out if it's torture," Mancow told his listeners Friday morning, adding that he hoped his on-air test would help prove that waterboarding did not, in fact, constitute torture.

. . . .

Turns out the stunt wasn't so funny. Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop. He only lasted 6 or 7 seconds.

"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke,"Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "

Last year, Vanity Fair writer Christopher Hitchens endured the same experiment -- and came to a similar conclusion. The conservative writer said he found the treatment terrifying, and was haunted by it for months afterward.

"Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture," Hitchens concluded in the article.
===========================

Let's hope you never have to recant your views in such a situation.

[quade 4]

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Let's hope you never have to recant your views in such a situation.

Why? So he can keep his beliefs?

The Mancow thing wasn't even a "real" waterboarding. Mancow had, in effect, a "safe word" in the form of a stuffed toy he held in his hand and by releasing it could make it stop instantly.

Anybody in a real waterboarding doesn't have this option. Anybody in a real waterboarding doesn't know how far this torturers will take it. Anybody in a real waterboarding doesn't know that he won't be killed. In fact, some are.

This wasn't a real waterboarding and Mancow changed his mind after SIX SECONDS.

I wish we could change some other people's minds as quickly.

It also shows that Mancow at least stands behind his convictions, unlike that pussy Hannity.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[christelsabine 1]

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proves it works without killing or hurting
Therefore, not torture

Can I waterboard you? According to you it won't even hurt you ...

You all are so intent of attacking those with whom you do not agree.

Stupid strawman in any event.

Attacking? Who is attacking you?

Your posts are attacking every normal human brain.

What a poor BS.

dudeist skydiver # 3105