1+1=2nd Amendment infringment

[ChileRelleno 0]

The Feds motives are becoming so blatantly obvious as to make any naysayers scoffing seem moronic.
The Feds are moving to consolidate their power and disarm the citizenry, it is happening, it is coming, they will stop at nothing to consolidate/protect their power.
Once the 2nd is gone, other Constitutional Rights will fall in rapid succession, after all, the citizens will no longer be able to exert the ultimate control that our Forefathers saw the need for.
...................................................

1 The Feds start naming all sorts of groups/veterans as potential domestic terrorists.
+
1 H.R. 2159, just introduced, allows the Feds carte blanche in denying firearms to anyone they choose to call a potential terrorist.
=
2nd Amendment infringement at a whim.
.....................................................

A coincidence? I think not... Wake Up America!
.....................................................

So, who are these suspected groups activities?
Besides every single US military veteran, see the list below.

What constitutes being involved/associated with these groups?
A bumper sticker, yes, something as simple as a bumper sticker can cause you to be lumped in with one or more of these groups.
Or, you can simply be a US military veteran.

Who makes the decision(s) and how?

Your suspected for whatever reason and your are Rights violated, without your having ever committed a crime? WTF!?!?
...............................................

I've bolded the text of definitions which I personally could be by any stretch of imagination be considered sympathetic to or associated with, and hence denied my Rights.

Remember, in a separate list, they targeted our US military veterans too.
................................

Quote

(U) aboveground (U//FOUO) A term used to describe extremist groups or
individuals who operate overtly and portray themselves as
law-abiding.

(U) alternative media (U//FOUO) A term used to describe various information
sources that provide a forum for interpretations of events and
issues that differ radically from those presented in mass
media products and outlets.

(U) anarchist
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who
advocate a society devoid of government structure or
ownership of individual property. Many embrace some of the
radical philosophical components of anticapitalist,
antiglobalization, communist, socialist, and other movements.
Anarchist extremists advocate changing government and
society through revolutionary violence.
(also: revolutionary anarchists)

(U) animal rights
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who
ascribe equal value to all living organisms and seek to end the
perceived abuse and suffering of animals. They believe
animals are sentient creatures that experience emotional,
physical, and mental awareness and deserve many of the
same rights as human beings; for example, the right to life
and freedom to engage in normal, instinctive animal behavior.
These groups have been known to advocate or engage in
criminal activity and plot acts of violence and terrorism in an
attempt to advance their extremist goals. They have targeted
industries, businesses, and government entities that they
perceive abuse or exploit animals, including those that use
animals for testing, human services, food production, or
consumption.
(also: animal liberation)

(U) antiabortion
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who are
virulently antiabortion and advocate violence against
providers of abortion-related services, their employees, and
their facilities. Some cite various racist and anti-Semitic
beliefs to justify their criminal activities.


(U) anti-immigration
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who are
vehemently opposed to illegal immigration, particularly along
the U.S. southwest border with Mexico, and who have been
known to advocate or engage in criminal activity and plot acts
of violence and terrorism to advance their extremist goals.
They are highly critical of the U.S. Government’s response to
illegal immigration and oppose government programs that are
designed to extend “rights” to illegal aliens, such as issuing
driver’s licenses or national identification cards and providing
in-state tuition, medical benefits, or public education.

(U) antitechnology
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals opposed to
technology. These groups have been known to advocate or
engage in criminal activity and plot acts of violence and
terrorism in an attempt to advance their extremist goals.
They have targeted college and university laboratories,
scholars, biotechnology industries, U.S. corporations
involved in the computer or airline industry, and others.
(also: Neo-Luddites)

(U) Aryan prison
gangs
(U//FOUO) Individuals who form organized groups while in
prison and advocate white supremacist views.
Group members may continue to operate under the auspices
of the prison gang upon their release from correctional
facilities.

(U) black bloc (U//FOUO) An organized collection of violent anarchists and
anarchist affinity groups that band together for illegal acts of
civil disturbance and use tactics that destroy property or strain
law enforcement resources. Black blocs operate in
autonomous cells that infiltrate nonviolent protests, often
without the knowledge of the organizers of the event.

(U) black nationalism (U//FOUO) A term used by black separatists to promote the
unification and separate identity of persons of black or
African American descent and who advocate the
establishment of a separate nation within the United States.

(U) black power (U//FOUO) A term used by black separatists to describe their
pride in and the perceived superiority of the black race.


(U) black separatism (U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals of black or
African American descent who advocate the separation of the
races or the separation of specific geographic regions from
the rest of the United States; some advocate forming their
own political system within a separate nation. Such groups or
individuals also may embrace radical religious beliefs.
Members have been known to advocate or engage in criminal
activity and plot acts of violence directed toward local law
enforcement in an attempt to advance their extremist goals.

(U) Christian Identity (U//FOUO) A racist religious
philosophy that maintains
non-Jewish whites are “God’s
Chosen People” and the true
descendants of the
Twelve Tribes of Israel.
Groups or individuals can be
followers of either the Covenant
or Dual Seedline doctrine; all believe that Jews are conspiring
with Satan to control world affairs and that the world is on the
verge of the Biblical apocalypse. Dual Seedline adherents
believe Jews are the literal offspring of Satan and that nonwhites,
who are often referred to as “mud people,” are not
human beings.
(also: Identity, CI, Anglo-Israel)

(U) Cuban
independence
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who do
not recognize the legitimacy of the Communist Cuban
Government and who attempt to subvert it through acts of
violence, mainly within the United States.
(also: anti-Castro groups)

(U) decentralized
terrorist movement
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who
pursue shared ideological goals through tactics of leaderless
resistance independent of any larger terrorist organization.

(U) denial-of-service
attack
(U//FOUO) An attack that attempts to prevent or impair the
intended functionality of computer networks, systems, or
applications. Depending on the type of system targeted, the
attack can employ a variety of mechanisms and means.
(also: DoS attack)

(U) direct action (U//FOUO) Lawful or unlawful acts of civil disobedience
ranging from protests to property destruction or acts of
violence. This term is most often used by single-issue or
anarchist extremists to describe their activities.

(U) Christian Identity symbol.
adl.or

(U) Green Anarchism
symbol.

(U) environmental
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who use
violence to end what they perceive as the degradation of the
natural environment by humans. Members have advocated or
engaged in criminal activity and plot acts of violence and
terrorism in an attempt to advance their extremist goals.
They target industries, businesses, and government entities
that they allege are engaged in habitat destruction, citing
urban sprawl and development, logging, construction sites
and related equipment, and man-made sources of air, water,
and land pollution.
(also: ecoterrorism)

(U) ethnic-based
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who are
drawn together and form extremist beliefs based on their
ethnic or cultural background. Members have advocated or
engaged in criminal activity and have plotted acts of violence
and terrorism in an attempt to advance their extremist goals.
(U) extremist group (U//FOUO) An ideologically driven organization that
advocates or attempts to bring about political, religious,
economic, or social change through the use of force, violence,
or ideologically motivated criminal activity.

(U) green anarchism (U//FOUO) A movement of groups or
individuals who combine anarchist
ideology with an environmental focus.
They advocate a return to a preindustrial,
agrarian society, often
through acts of violence and terrorism.

(U) hacktivism (U//FOUO) (A portmanteau of “hacking” and “activism.”)
The use of cyber technologies to achieve a political end, or
technology-enabled political or social activism.
Hacktivism might include website defacements,
denial-of-service attacks, hacking into the target’s network to
introduce malicious software (malware), or information theft.

(U) hate groups (U//FOUO) A term most often used to describe white
supremacist groups. It is occasionally used to describe other
racist extremist groups.

(U) Jewish extremism (U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals of the
Jewish faith who are willing to use violence or commit other
criminal acts to protect themselves against perceived affronts
to their religious or ethnic identity.
en.wikipedia.org

(U) leaderless
resistance
(U//FOUO) A strategy that stresses the importance of
individuals and small cells acting independently and
anonymously outside formalized organizational structures to
enhance operational security and avoid detection. It is used
by many types of domestic extremists.

(U) leftwing
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals that
embraces anticapitalist, Communist, or Socialist doctrines
and seeks to bring about change through violent revolution
rather than through established political processes. The term
also refers to leftwing, single-issue extremist movements that
are dedicated to causes such as environmentalism, opposition
to war, and the rights of animals.
(also: far left, extreme left)

(U) lone terrorist (U//FOUO) An individual motivated by extremist ideology
to commit acts of criminal violence independent of any larger
terrorist organization.
(also: lone wolf)

(U) Mexican
separatism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals of
Mexican descent who advocate the secession of southwestern
U.S. states (all or part of Arizona, California, New Mexico,
and Texas) to join with Mexico through armed struggle.
Members do not recognize the legitimacy of these U.S. states,
including the U.S. Government’s original acquisition of these
territories.

(U) militia movement (U//FOUO) A rightwing extremist movement composed of
groups or individuals who adhere to an antigovernment
ideology often incorporating various conspiracy theories.
Members oppose most federal and state laws, regulations, and
authority (particularly firearms laws and regulations) and
often conduct paramilitary training designed to resist
perceived government interference in their activities or to
overthrow the U.S. Government through the use of violence.
(also: citizens militia, unorganized militia)

(U) neo-Nazis (U//FOUO) Groups or individuals who adhere to and
promote Adolph Hitler’s beliefs and use Nazi symbols and
ideology. Subjects subscribe to virulently racist as well as
anti-Semitic beliefs, many based on national socialist ideals
derived from Nazi Germany. Neo-Nazis may attempt to
downplay or deny the Jewish Holocaust.
(also: national socialists, Nazis)

(U) patriot movement (U//FOUO) A term used by rightwing extremists to link their
beliefs to those commonly associated with the American
Revolution. The patriot movement primarily comprises
violent antigovernment groups such as militias and sovereign
citizens.
(also: Christian patriots, patriot group, Constitutionalists,
Constitutionist)

(U) Phineas
Priesthood
(U//FOUO) A Christian Identity
doctrine derived from the Biblical
story of Phinehas, which adherents
interpret as justifying inter-racial
killing. Followers of this belief
system also have advocated
martyrdom and violence against
homosexuals, mixed-race couples,
and abortion providers.

(U) primary targeting (U//FOUO) Plans or attacks directed by extremists against
parties that are the focus of an organized campaign.

(U) Puerto Rican
independence
extremists
(U//FOUO) Groups or individuals who engage in criminal
activity and advocate the use of violence to achieve
Puerto Rican independence from the United States.

(U) racial Nordic
mysticism
(U//FOUO) An ideology adopted by many white supremacist
prison gangs who embrace a Norse mythological religion,
such as Odinism or Asatru.
(also: Odinism, Asatru)

(U) racialist (U//FOUO) A term used by white supremacists intended to
minimize their extreme views on racial issues.

(U) racist skinheads (U//FOUO) Groups or individuals who combine white
supremacist ideology with a skinhead ethos in which “white
power” music plays a central role. Dress may include a
shaved head or very short hair, jeans, thin suspenders, combat
boots or Doc Martens, a bomber jacket (sometimes with racist
symbols), and tattoos of Nazi-like emblems. Some are
abandoning these stereotypical identifiers.
(also: skins)

(U) radicalization (U//FOUO) The process by which an individual adopts an
extremist belief system leading to his or her willingness to
advocate or bring about political, religious, economic, or
social change through the use of force, violence, or
ideologically motivated criminal activity.

(U) Phineas Priesthood
symbol.
adl.org

(U) rightwing
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of rightwing groups or individuals
who can be broadly divided into those who are primarily
hate-oriented, and those who are mainly antigovernment and
reject federal authority in favor of state or local authority.
This term also may refer to rightwing extremist movements
that are dedicated to a single issue, such as opposition to
abortion or immigration.
(also known as far right, extreme right)

(U) secondary
targeting
(U//FOUO) Plans or attacks directed against parties
(secondary targets) that provide direct financial, logistic, or
physical support to the primary target of an organized
campaign, with the goal of coercing those parties to end their
engagement with a primary target. Secondary targets can
include customers of or suppliers to a primary target or
employees of a primary target organization.

(U) single-issue
extremist groups
(U//FOUO) Groups or individuals who focus on a single
issue or cause—such as animal rights, environmental or
anti-abortion extremism—and often employ criminal acts.
Group members may be associated with more than one issue.
(also: special interest extremists)

(U) skinheads (U//FOUO) A subculture composed primarily of
working-class, white youth who embrace shaved heads for
males, substance abuse, and violence. Skinheads can be
categorized as racist, anti-racist or “traditional,” which
emphasizes group unity based on fashion, music, and lifestyle
rather than political ideology. Dress often includes a shaved
head or very short hair, jeans, thin suspenders, combat boots
or Doc Martens, and a bomber jacket.
(also: skins)

(U) sovereign citizen
movement
(U//FOUO) A rightwing extremist movement composed of
groups or individuals who reject the notion of
U.S. citizenship. They claim to follow only what they believe
to be God’s law or common law and the original
10 amendments (Bill of Rights) to the U.S. Constitution.
They believe they are emancipated from all other
responsibilities associated with being a U.S. citizen, such as
paying taxes, possessing a driver’s license and motor vehicle
registration, or holding a social security number.
They generally do not recognize federal or state government
authority or laws. Several sovereign citizen groups in the
United States produce fraudulent documents for their
members in lieu of legitimate government-issued forms of
identification. Members have been known to advocate or
engage in criminal activity and plot acts of violence and
terrorism in an attempt to advance their extremist goals.
They often target government officials and law enforcement.
(also: state citizens, freemen, preamble citizens, common law
citizens)

(U) tax resistance
movement
(U//FOUO) Groups or individuals who vehemently believe
taxes violate their constitutional rights. Among their beliefs
are that wages are not income, that paying income taxes is
voluntary, and that the 16th Amendment to the
U.S. Constitution, which allowed Congress to levy taxes on
income, was not properly ratified. Members have been
known to advocate or engage in criminal activity and plot acts
of violence and terrorism in an attempt to advance their
extremist goals. They often target government entities such
as the Internal Revenue Service and the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
(also: tax protest movement, tax freedom movement, antitax
movement)

(U) tertiary targeting (U//FOUO) Plans or attacks against parties with indirect
links to the primary target of an organized campaign.
Tertiary targets can include employees, customers, investors,
and other participants in a company (the secondary target)
that does business with or provides support services to the
primary target; or parties who provide direct financial,
logistic, or physical support to the secondary target.

(U) underground (U//FOUO) A term used to describe clandestine extremist

(U) violent antiwar
extremism
(U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who
advocate or engage in criminal activity and plot acts of
violence and terrorism in an attempt to voice their opposition
to U.S. involvement in war-related activities. They often
target the military, seats of government power, and defense
industry personnel, facilities, and activities.

(U) violent religious
sects
(U//FOUO) Religious extremist groups predisposed toward
violence. These groups often stockpile weapons, conduct
paramilitary training, and share a paranoid interpretation of
current world events, which they often associate with the end
of the world. They perceive outsiders as enemies or evil
influences; display intense xenophobia and strong distrust of
the government; and exercise extreme physical or
psychological control over group members, sometimes
isolating them from society or subjecting them to physical or
sexual abuse and harsh initiation practices.

(U) white nationalism (U//FOUO) A term used by white supremacists to emphasize
what they perceive as the uniquely white (European) heritage
of the United States.

(U) white power (U//FOUO) A term used by white supremacists to describe
their pride in and the perceived superiority of the white race.

(U) white separatism (U//FOUO) A movement of groups or individuals who
believe in the separation of races and reject interracial
marriages. Some advocate the secession of specific
geographic regions from the rest of the United States.
Members have been known to advocate or engage in criminal
activity and plot acts of violence and terrorism in an attempt
to advance their extremist goals.

(U) white supremacist
movement
(U//FOUO) Groups or individuals who believe that whites—
Caucasians—are intellectually and morally superior to other
races and use their racist ideology to justify committing
crimes, acts of violence, and terrorism to advance their cause.
Some advocate racial separation/segregation.
White supremacists generally fall into six categories:
Neo-Nazi, Ku Klux KlanUSPER, Christian Identity, racist
skinhead, Nordic mysticism, or Aryan prison gangs.
White supremacists have been known to embrace more than
one of these categories.

............................................

So, wheres/whats this Bill I'm pissed off about?
Here...

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.2159.IH:"]http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.2159.IH:

Quote

2159. H.R.2159 : To increase public safety by permitting the Attorney General to deny the transfer of a firearm or the issuance of firearms or explosives licenses to a known or suspected dangerous terrorist.
Sponsor: Rep King, Peter T. [NY-3] (introduced 4/29/2009) Cosponsors (6)
Committees: House Judiciary
Latest Major Action: 4/29/2009 Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary.

Quote

Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2009 (Introduced in House)

HR 2159 IH

111th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 2159

To increase public safety by permitting the Attorney General to deny the transfer of a firearm or the issuance of firearms or explosives licenses to a known or suspected dangerous terrorist.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

April 29, 2009

Mr. KING of New York (for himself, Mr. RANGEL, Mr. CASTLE, Mrs. MCCARTHY of New York, Mr. KIRK, Mr. MORAN of Virginia, and Mr. SMITH of New Jersey) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

A BILL

To increase public safety by permitting the Attorney General to deny the transfer of a firearm or the issuance of firearms or explosives licenses to a known or suspected dangerous terrorist.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2009'.

SEC. 2. GRANTING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THE AUTHORITY TO DENY THE SALE, DELIVERY, OR TRANSFER OF A FIREARM OR THE ISSUANCE OF A FIREARMS OR EXPLOSIVES LICENSE OR PERMIT TO DANGEROUS TERRORISTS.

(a) Standard for Exercising Attorney General Discretion Regarding Transferring Firearms or Issuing Firearms Permits to Dangerous Terrorists- Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting the following new section after section 922:

`Sec. 922A. Attorney General's discretion to deny transfer of a firearm

`The Attorney General may deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922(t)(1)(B)(ii) if the Attorney General determines that the transferee is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support thereof, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the prospective transferee may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.';

(2) by inserting the following new section after section 922A:

`Sec. 922B. Attorney General's discretion regarding applicants for firearm permits which would qualify for the exemption provided under section 922(t)(3)

`The Attorney General may determine that an applicant for a firearm permit which would qualify for an exemption under section 922(t) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support thereof, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.'; and

(3) in section 921(a), by adding at the end the following:

`(36) The term `terrorism' means `international terrorism' as defined in section 2331(1), and `domestic terrorism' as defined in section 2331(5).

`(37) The term `material support' means `material support or resources' within the meaning of section 2339A or 2339B.

`(38) The term `responsible person' means an individual who has the power, directly or indirectly, to direct or cause the direction of the management and policies of the applicant or licensee pertaining to firearms.'.

(b) Effect of Attorney General Discretionary Denial Through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) on Firearms Permits- Section 922(t) of such title is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)(B)(ii), by inserting `or State law, or that the Attorney General has determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A' before the semicolon;

(2) in paragraph (2), by inserting after `or State law' the following: `or if the Attorney General has not determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A';

(3) in paragraph (3)(A)(i)--

(A) by striking `and' at the end of subclause (I); and

(B) by adding at the end the following:

`(III) was issued after a check of the system established pursuant to paragraph (1);';

(4) in paragraph (3)(A)--

(A) by adding `and' at the end of clause (ii); and

(B) by adding after and below the end the following:

`(iii) the State issuing the permit agrees to deny the permit application if such other person is the subject of a determination by the Attorney General pursuant to section 922B;';

(5) in paragraph (4), by inserting after `or State law,' the following: `or if the Attorney General has not determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A,'; and

(6) in paragraph (5), by inserting after `or State law,' the following: `or if the Attorney General has determined to deny the transfer of a firearm pursuant to section 922A,'.

(c) Unlawful Sale or Disposition of Firearm Based on Attorney General Discretionary Denial- Section 922(d) of such title is amended--

(1) by striking `or' at the end of paragraph (8);

(2) by striking the period at the end of paragraph (9) and inserting `; or';

(3) by inserting after paragraph (9) the following:

`(10) has been the subject of a determination by the Attorney General pursuant to section 922A, 922B, 923(d)(1)(H), or 923(e) of this title.'.

(d) Attorney General Discretionary Denial as Prohibitor- Section 922(g) of such title is amended--

(1) by striking `or' at the end of paragraph (8);

(2) by striking the comma at the end of paragraph (9) and inserting; `; or'; and

(3) by inserting after paragraph (9) the following:

`(10) who has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to section 922A, 922B, 923(d)(1)(H), or 923(e) of this title.'.

(e) Attorney General Discretionary Denial of Federal Firearms Licenses- Section 923(d)(1) of such title is amended--

(1) by striking `Any' and inserting `Except as provided in subparagraph (H), any';

(2) in subparagraph (F)(iii), by striking `and' at the end;

(3) in subparagraph (G), by striking the period and inserting `; and'; and

(4) by adding at the end the following:

`(H) The Attorney General may deny a license application if the Attorney General determines that the applicant (including any responsible person) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support thereof, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.'.

(f) Discretionary Revocation of Federal Firearms Licenses- Section 923(e) of such title is amended--

(1) in the 1st sentence--

(A) by inserting after `revoke' the following: `--(1)'; and

(B) by striking the period and inserting a semicolon;

(2) in the 2nd sentence--

(A) by striking `The Attorney General may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke' and insert `(2)'; and

(B) by striking the period and inserting `; or'; and

(3) by adding at the end the following:

`(3) any license issued under this section if the Attorney General determines that the holder of the license (including any responsible person) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support thereof, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the applicant may use a firearm in connection with terrorism.'.

(g) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Firearms License Denial and Revocation Suit- Section 923(f) of such title is amended--

(1) in the 1st sentence of paragraph (1), by inserting `, except that if the denial or revocation is pursuant to subsection (d)(1)(H) or (e)(3), then any information on which the Attorney General relied for this determination may be withheld from the petitioner if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security' before the period; and

(2) in paragraph (3), by inserting after the 3rd sentence the following: `With respect to any information withheld from the aggrieved party under paragraph (1), the United States may submit, and the court may rely on, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

(h) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Relief From Disabilities Lawsuits- Section 925(c) of such title is amended by inserting after the 3rd sentence the following: `If receipt of a firearms by the person would violate section 922(g)(10), any information which the Attorney General relied on for this determination may be withheld from the applicant if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security. In responding to the petition, the United States may submit, and the court may rely on, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

(i) Penalties- Section 924(k) of such title is amended--

(1) by striking `or' at the end of paragraph (2);

(2) in paragraph (3), by striking `, or' and inserting `; or'; and

(3) by inserting after paragraph (3) the following:

`(4) constitutes an act of terrorism (as defined in section 921(a)(36)), or material support thereof (as defined in section 921(a)(37)), or'.

(j) Remedy for Erroneous Denial of Firearm or Firearm Permit Exemption- Section 925A of such title is amended--

(1) in the section heading, by striking `Remedy for erroneous denial of firearm' and inserting `Remedies';

(2) by striking `Any person denied a firearm pursuant to subsection (s) or (t) of section 922' and inserting the following:

`(a) Except as provided in subsection (b), any person denied a firearm pursuant to section 922(t) or pursuant to a determination made under section 922B,'; and

(3) by adding after and below the end the following:

`(b) In any case in which the Attorney General has denied the transfer of a firearm to a prospective transferee pursuant to section 922A or has made a determination regarding a firearm permit applicant pursuant to section 922B, an action challenging the determination may be brought against the United States. The petition must be filed not later than 60 days after the petitioner has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to section 922A or 922B. The court shall sustain the Attorney General's determination on a showing by the United States by a preponderance of evidence that the Attorney General's determination satisfied the requirements of section 922A or 922B. To make this showing, the United States may submit, and the court may rely on, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security. On request of the petitioner or the court's own motion, the court may review the full, undisclosed documents ex parte and in camera. The court shall determine whether the summaries or redacted versions, as the case may be, are fair and accurate representations of the underlying documents. The court shall not consider the full, undisclosed documents in deciding whether the Attorney General's determination satisfies the requirements of section 922A or 922B.'.

(k) Provision of Grounds Underlying Ineligibility Determination by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System- Section 103 of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (Public Law 103-159) is amended--

(1) in subsection (f)--

(A) by inserting after `is ineligible to receive a firearm,' the following: `or the Attorney General has made a determination regarding an applicant for a firearm permit pursuant to section 922B of title 18, United States Code'; and

(B) by inserting after `the system shall provide such reasons to the individual,' the following: `except for any information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security'; and

(2) in subsection (g)--

(A) in the 1st sentence, by inserting after `subsection (g) or (n) of section 922 of title 18, United States Code or State law' the following: `or if the Attorney General has made a determination pursuant to section 922A or 922B of such title,';

(B) by inserting `, except any information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security' before the period; and

(C) by adding at the end the following: `Any petition for review of information withheld by the Attorney General under this subsection shall be made in accordance with section 925A of title 18, United States Code.'.

(l) Unlawful Distribution of Explosives Based on Attorney General Discretionary Denial- Section 842(d) of such title is amended--

(1) by striking the period at the end of paragraph (9) and inserting `; or'; and

(2) by adding at the end the following:

`(10) has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to section 843(b)(8) or (d)(2) of this title.'.

(m) Attorney General Discretionary Denial as Prohibitor- Section 842(i) of such title is amended--

(1) by adding `or' at the end of paragraph (7); and

(2) by inserting after paragraph (7) the following:

`(8) who has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to section 843(b)(8) or (d)(2),'.

(n) Attorney General Discretionary Denial of Federal Explosives Licenses and Permits- Section 843(b) of such title is amended--

(1) by striking `Upon' and inserting the following: `Except as provided in paragraph (8), on'; and

(2) by inserting after paragraph (7) the following:

`(8) The Attorney General may deny the issuance of a permit or license to an applicant if the Attorney General determines that the applicant or a responsible person or employee possessor thereof is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation of, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support thereof, and the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the person may use explosives in connection with terrorism.'.

(o) Attorney General Discretionary Revocation of Federal Explosives Licenses and Permits- Section 843(d) of such title is amended--

(1) by inserting `(1)' in the first sentence after `if'; and

(2) by striking the period at the end of the first sentence and inserting the following: `; or (2) the Attorney General determines that the licensee or holder (or any responsible person or employee possessor thereof) is known (or appropriately suspected) to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism, or providing material support thereof, and that the Attorney General has a reasonable belief that the person may use explosives in connection with terrorism.'.

(p) Attorney General's Ability To Withhold Information in Explosives License and Permit Denial and Revocation Suits- Section 843(e) of such title is amended--

(1) in the 1st sentence of paragraph (1), by inserting `except that if the denial or revocation is based on a determination under subsection (b)(8) or (d)(2), then any information which the Attorney General relied on for the determination may be withheld from the petitioner if the Attorney General determines that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security' before the period; and

(2) in paragraph (2), by adding at the end the following: `In responding to any petition for review of a denial or revocation based on a determination under section 843(b)(8) or (d)(2), the United States may submit, and the court may rely on, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security.'.

(q) Ability To Withhold Information in Communications to Employers- Section 843(h)(2) of such title is amended--

(1) in subparagraph (A), by inserting `or section 843(b)(1) (on grounds of terrorism) of this title,' after `section 842(i),'; and

(2) in subparagraph (B)--

(A) by inserting `or section 843(b)(8)' after `section 842(i)'; and

(B) in clause (ii), by inserting `, except that any information that the Attorney General relied on for a determination pursuant to section 843(b)(8) may be withheld if the Attorney General concludes that disclosure of the information would likely compromise national security' before the semicolon.

(r) Conforming Amendment to Immigration and Nationality Act- Section 101(a)(43)(E)(ii) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(43)(E)(ii)) is amended by striking ` or (5)' and inserting `(5), or (10)'.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[ChileRelleno 0]

So in a nutshell...
One month they release their lists of suspected/potential domestic terrorists groups.
Then they introduce a Bill which could VERY easily strip the 2nd Amendment Rights of those citizens.

Without those citizens having ever committed a crime.

And the Government doesn't have to say how/why they made their decision, unless you successfully sue the US Government.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[quade 4]

We really need a subsection of the forum called;

"SHIT THAT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN"

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

… Then they introduce a Bill which could VERY easily strip the 2nd Amendment Rights of those citizens.

I must have missed the part where you identified the proposed amendment to the Constitution in which the 2nd amendment is revoked. Without it, I think you'll find that Congress lacks the authority to strip those rights from people, so even if there was actually evidence to suggest Congress is actually trying to do such a thing (evidence which has yet to be presented), their attempt wouldn't pass the scrutiny of a challenge in the judicial system.

In other words, it sounds like yet another the scary Democrat is trying to take away all of the guns rant that lacks justification.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[ChileRelleno 0]

Quote

We really need a subsection of the forum called;

"SHIT THAT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN"

You are very likely correct.
So many Bills are introduced that never see the light of day due to a lack of support.

But,
they try time and time again to introduce such ass'inine crap.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[ChileRelleno 0]

Quote

Quote

… Then they introduce a Bill which could VERY easily strip the 2nd Amendment Rights of those citizens.

I must have missed the part where you identified the proposed amendment to the Constitution in which the 2nd amendment is revoked. Without it, I think you'll find that Congress lacks the authority to strip those rights from people, so even if there was actually evidence to suggest Congress is actually trying to do such a thing (evidence which has yet to be presented), their attempt wouldn't pass the scrutiny of a challenge in the judicial system.

In other words, it sounds like yet another the scary Democrat is trying to take away all of the guns rant that lacks justification.

Lacks justification? Are you daft?

There isn't a revocation of the 2nd, simply a attempt at trampling it in the name of denying terrorists from lawfully acquiring firearms/explosives.

This after they release lists of possible/suspected domestic terrorists.
Then write and introduce this bill aimed at fore mentioned suspects.

Your suspect... 2nd Amendment Right, Denied.

Dang'it man, if you can't see this for the blatant bullshit that it is... I just haven't any more words for ya.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Lacks justification? Are you daft?

Nope, but I appreciate your attempt at a PA, anyway.

Quote

There isn't a revocation of the 2nd, simply a attempt at trampling it in the name of denying terrorists from lawfully acquiring firearms/explosives.

It either is or isn't a revocation of the 2nd amendment. Make up your mind.

Quote

Dang'it man, if you can't see this for the blatant bullshit that it is... I just haven't any more words for ya.

Oh, I see it as blatant bullshit, alright. It's just like all of the other blatantly bullshit, paranoid claims about Obama and the Democrat controlled Congress wanting to take everyone's guns away.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[ChileRelleno 0]

Quote

Quote

Lacks justification? Are you daft?

Nope, but I appreciate your attempt at a PA, anyway.

Quote

There isn't a revocation of the 2nd, simply a attempt at trampling it in the name of denying terrorists from lawfully acquiring firearms/explosives.

It either is or isn't a revocation of the 2nd amendment. Make up your mind.

Quote

Dang'it man, if you can't see this for the blatant bullshit that it is... I just haven't any more words for ya.

Oh, I see it as blatant bullshit, alright. It's just like all of the other blatantly bullshit, paranoid claims about Obama and the Democrat controlled Congress wanting to take everyone's guns away.

Asking you if your daft, is hardly a PA in my opinion, we can let a Mod decide that.

This does not revoke the 2nd.
This seeks to deny the Right based on suspicions or actions, without the citizen having even been subject to due process.
I'm all for such a s a felon being disallowed the Right to exercise the 2nd, actions have consequences.
Tried & convicted, no problem, tough luck sucker.

This is not a blatant Government attempt to take everyone's guns away.
This is a blatant Government attempt to deny certain citizens the ability to acquire a firearm/etc.

I view both Dems/Reps equally, and my view isn't positive in the least bit.
Please do notice that I label them as the Fed or Government.
I didn't particularly care for GW, and I feel the same for BO.

Ya see, I'm one those listed as a suspected/potential domestic terrorist.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

And the Government doesn't have to say how/why they made their decision, unless you successfully sue the US Government.

Under the language of the bill, you'd just get denied by the NICS system, with no explanation. You'd have to realize that your Ron Paul bumper sticker was the reason in order to sue.

Under the language of the bill (most worrisome is all the parenthetical "or suspects" because that means there is no due process), you could be denied your 2nd Amendment rights because you have chosen to exercise your 1st Amendment rights--how's that for a double whammy?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jerryzflies 0]

Quote

We really need a subsection of the forum called;

"SHIT THAT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN"

OK, but they managed to get a million+ people on the "NO FLY" list based on similar criteria. Not a peep from Mr. ChileR about that; wasn't his ox being gored, I suppose.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

This does not revoke the 2nd.

Then why are you so worried? If the 2nd amendment is not revoked, then the people retain the right to keep and bear arms. What's the problem?

Quote

This seeks to deny the Right based on suspicions or actions, without the citizen having even been subject to due process.

If it's unConstitutional, then a court challenge will ultimately be successful (in the event the legislation is both passed and abused).

Quote

I'm all for such a s a felon being disallowed the Right to exercise the 2nd, actions have consequences.
Tried & convicted, no problem, tough luck sucker.

I see. So, the right to keep and bear arms is more of a privilege in your opinion.

Quote

This is not a blatant Government attempt to take everyone's guns away.
This is a blatant Government attempt to deny certain citizens the ability to acquire a firearm/etc.

Your previous statement explicitly stated that you were okay with some people "being disallowed the Right to exercise the 2nd." It appears that you're okay with some people losing their right to keep and bear arms, as long as you are not one of them.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Your previous statement explicitly stated that you were okay with some people "being disallowed the Right to exercise the 2nd." It appears that you're okay with some people losing their right to keep and bear arms, as long as you are not one of them.

The very important distinction, which Chile is making (but not articulating very well) is that he's ok with loss of rights pursuant to due process of law.

In this case, we're talking about abrogation of rights by the Attorney General without any other legal process--no court need review his decisions to declare a person a "terrorist suspect", nor will a court review his subsequent decision to deny that person their 2nd Amendment Rights. There is also no requirement that he base his decision on any actual breach of law. He could simply base it on their stated opinions (which ought to enjoy the protection of the 1st Amendment).

I wonder if Michael Savage would be allowed to buy a gun under this proposed system?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[warpedskydiver 0]

Now you or I or many of the posters in this forum, plus anyone who would uphold the Constitution as the highest law in the land are now to be considered Terrorists.

That list of determining factors would include a few Supreme Court Justices.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

Your previous statement explicitly stated that you were okay with some people "being disallowed the Right to exercise the 2nd." It appears that you're okay with some people losing their right to keep and bear arms, as long as you are not one of them.

The very important distinction, which Chile is making (but not articulating very well) is that he's ok with loss of rights pursuant to due process of law.

If you read the proposed legislation, you'll find that it provides due process for those wanting to buy firearms, and leaves the burden of proof on the Attorney General (and his office).

Quote

… nor will a court review his subsequent decision to deny that person their 2nd Amendment Rights.

Really? You must have missed this passage in your rush to warn everyone about those scary Democrats wanting to take away everyone's guns:

In any case in which the Attorney General has denied the transfer of a firearm to a prospective transferee pursuant to section 922A or has made a determination regarding a firearm permit applicant pursuant to section 922B, an action challenging the determination may be brought against the United States. The petition must be filed not later than 60 days after the petitioner has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to section 922A or 922B. The court shall sustain the Attorney General's determination on a showing by the United States by a preponderance of evidence that the Attorney General's determination satisfied the requirements of section 922A or 922B. To make this showing, the United States may submit, and the court may rely on, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security. On request of the petitioner or the court's own motion, the court may review the full, undisclosed documents ex parte and in camera. The court shall determine whether the summaries or redacted versions, as the case may be, are fair and accurate representations of the underlying documents. The court shall not consider the full, undisclosed documents in deciding whether the Attorney General's determination satisfies the requirements of section 922A or 922B.'.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Your previous statement explicitly stated that you were okay with some people "being disallowed the Right to exercise the 2nd." It appears that you're okay with some people losing their right to keep and bear arms, as long as you are not one of them.

The very important distinction, which Chile is making (but not articulating very well) is that he's ok with loss of rights pursuant to due process of law.

If you read the proposed legislation, you'll find that it provides due process for those wanting to buy firearms, and leaves the burden of proof on the Attorney General (and his office).

Quote

… nor will a court review his subsequent decision to deny that person their 2nd Amendment Rights.

Really? You must have missed this passage in your rush to warn everyone about those scary Democrats wanting to take away everyone's guns:

In any case in which the Attorney General has denied the transfer of a firearm to a prospective transferee pursuant to section 922A or has made a determination regarding a firearm permit applicant pursuant to section 922B, an action challenging the determination may be brought against the United States. The petition must be filed not later than 60 days after the petitioner has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to section 922A or 922B. The court shall sustain the Attorney General's determination on a showing by the United States by a preponderance of evidence that the Attorney General's determination satisfied the requirements of section 922A or 922B. To make this showing, the United States may submit, and the court may rely on, summaries or redacted versions of documents containing information the disclosure of which the Attorney General has determined would likely compromise national security. On request of the petitioner or the court's own motion, the court may review the full, undisclosed documents ex parte and in camera. The court shall determine whether the summaries or redacted versions, as the case may be, are fair and accurate representations of the underlying documents. The court shall not consider the full, undisclosed documents in deciding whether the Attorney General's determination satisfies the requirements of section 922A or 922B.'.

So he is guilty and has to prove himself inocent?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[warpedskydiver 0]

Look it does not matter what the legislation says as long as you approve of the intent, those who favor this just want guns banned no matter how it gets done,

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

So he is guilty and has to prove himself inocent?

According to the proposed legislation, the burden of proof lies with the AG (as already stated in passage quoted within the post to which you replied).

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

So he is guilty and has to prove himself inocent?

According to the proposed legislation, the burden of proof lies with the AG (as already stated in passage quoted within the post to which you replied).

What you posted indicated to me that if you are put on the no buy list you can challenge it. THEN the AG has the burden of proof. So, you can be put on the list without due process so, you are guilty until you challenge your placement on said list.

That’s ok with you?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

In any case in which the Attorney General has denied the transfer of a firearm to a prospective transferee pursuant to section 922A or has made a determination regarding a firearm permit applicant pursuant to section 922B, an action challenging the determination may be brought against the United States. The petition must be filed not later than 60 days after the petitioner has received actual notice of the Attorney General's determination made pursuant to section 922A or 922B.

I don't see anywhere that someone can appeal their classification as a "suspect". And, since being a "suspect" doesn't mean you ever get a day in court, people could conceivably be on the "suspect" list forever.

You can appeal having the firearm denied, but since you are on the "suspect" list, and failed to appeal that in a timely fashion, the AG obviously has a good reason for denying your firearm transfer.


This is obviously a sham.

Seller: Sorry, can't let you have that, because you didn't pass the NICS.

Buyer: Huh? I've got no criminal record.

Justice Department: You don't need a criminal record--we've determined that as a veteran with a "Ron Paul" bumper sticker, you're a "terrorist suspect."

Buyer: Ok, I'd like to appeal the denial of my firearm transfer.

Judge: Your appeal is denied--you're a known terrorist suspect.

Buyer: Can I appeal my status as a terrorist suspect?

Justice Department: Nope, there's no process to appeal that.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Quote

So he is guilty and has to prove himself inocent?

According to the proposed legislation, the burden of proof lies with the AG (as already stated in passage quoted within the post to which you replied).

In actual fact, the onus lies on the purchaser. The AG doesn't have to do anything until the purchaser actually gets his lawsuit into a court. And even then, all he can do is appeal the denial, which is based on his (unable to be appealed) status as a "suspect." The court simply points out that he's a suspect, so it's totally reasonable to deny his rights.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Look it does not matter what the legislation says as long as you approve of the intent, those who favor this just want guns banned no matter how it gets done,

Incorrect. I see no reason not to support this legislation (i.e. I have not seen any legitimate concerns raised thus far), and I'm pro-gun.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

What you posted indicated to me that if you are put on the no buy list you can challenge it. THEN the AG has the burden of proof. So, you can be put on the list without due process so, you are guilty until you challenge your placement on said list.

That’s ok with you?

Yes, that's okay with me. It is no different than arresting someone and taking them into custody prior to their trial. It doesn't deny due process of law.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Quote

Look it does not matter what the legislation says as long as you approve of the intent, those who favor this just want guns banned no matter how it gets done,

Incorrect. I see no reason not to support this legislation (i.e. I have not seen any legitimate concerns raised thus far), and I'm pro-gun.

An honest question for you:

Would you still support the legislation if the AG, who got to determine if you were a "terrorist suspect" was a Republican appointed by George Obushma, instead of a Democrat appointed by Barack Obushma?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

I don't see anywhere that someone can appeal their classification as a "suspect". And, since being a "suspect" doesn't mean you ever get a day in court, people could conceivably be on the "suspect" list forever.

That is consistent with the rest of our justice system. The police can suspect me of anything they want, and I can't do anything about it. As soon as they act on their suspicions, I am entitled to due process of law.

Quote

You can appeal having the firearm denied, but since you are on the "suspect" list, and failed to appeal that in a timely fashion, the AG obviously has a good reason for denying your firearm transfer.

??? I've already addressed that with the relevant passage from the proposed legislation. What part, exactly, are you having difficulty understanding?

Quote

Justice Department: You don't need a criminal record--we've determined that as a veteran with a "Ron Paul" bumper sticker, you're a "terrorist suspect."

Nice straw man!

Quote

Buyer: Can I appeal my status as a terrorist suspect?

Justice Department: Nope, there's no process to appeal that.

Not true under the proposed legislation.

But hey, why bother with the facts when you're so busy trying to convince everyone how the scary Democrats are trying to take away everyone's guns, right?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

So he is guilty and has to prove himself inocent?

According to the proposed legislation, the burden of proof lies with the AG (as already stated in passage quoted within the post to which you replied).

In actual fact, the onus lies on the purchaser. The AG doesn't have to do anything until the purchaser actually gets his lawsuit into a court. And even then, all he can do is appeal the denial, which is based on his (unable to be appealed) status as a "suspect." The court simply points out that he's a suspect, so it's totally reasonable to deny his rights.

That interpretation, while very creative, is inconsistent with the legislation, as proposed.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!