kelpdiver 2 #51 May 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteCPR says that Obama's plans to control costs, while widening access to care for some 45m people without health insurance, . . . Another piece of misinformation that has become so often mentioned that even some of those in the know, or who should know better, are starting to believe it. The number of US citizens without insurance of some form, excluding those that can afford it and choose not to buy, is 10 to 12 million. Granted, that was before the current economic downturn, but the 40 to 45 million figure has been getting tossed around for at least a couple years and is BS. Please provide citation. You're asserting that claims of 45M are unfounded, and are really only 10-12M, but you're not providing any foundation either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #52 May 15, 2009 Quote ***The US healthcare establishment has launched a series of television attack adverts using tragic stories from Britain's National Health Service to contest Barack Obama's plans to contain the escalating cost of treatment and make it more accessible to the poor. Having just visited my company's London office, I got to hear exactly how inefficient and plodding the UK health care is for a mate, who suffered an infection after a knee operation. Every routine visit is worse than a trip to the DMV. He's not dying (though I wonder how their post op infection rates compare to our's) but nothing about his experiences this year would encourage me to trade what I have now (and used for my post crash recovery) for that. I know for those who fall out of the normal (bad accident, cancer, etc) in our system, it's horrific, but they represent a small minority. Reform won't come if the majority doesn't want it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #53 May 15, 2009 Quote Quote ***The US healthcare establishment has launched a series of television attack adverts using tragic stories from Britain's National Health Service to contest Barack Obama's plans to contain the escalating cost of treatment and make it more accessible to the poor. Having just visited my company's London office, I got to hear exactly how inefficient and plodding the UK health care is for a mate, who suffered an infection after a knee operation. Every routine visit is worse than a trip to the DMV. He's not dying (though I wonder how their post op infection rates compare to our's) but nothing about his experiences this year would encourage me to trade what I have now (and used for my post crash recovery) for that. I know for those who fall out of the normal (bad accident, cancer, etc) in our system, it's horrific, but they represent a small minority. Reform won't come if the majority doesn't want it. you know how the english like to moan and whinge - about the weather, foreigners, the nhs, whatever (just to say that the nhs has served me and my family well for many, many years. when i got hit by a prop and dashed off to hospital there were no insurance worries - just immediate treatment)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #54 May 15, 2009 Quote you know how the english like to moan and whinge - about the weather, foreigners, the nhs, whatever The thing is - he wasn't complaining. Just relaying the details of when he was going to be out of the office. Waiting two hours to get seen. In contrast, when I have an 8am appointment with my ortho surgeon, I'm usually on the bus to work by 8:15. 8:30 if they take an x-ray first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #55 May 21, 2009 Do you enjoy your 61% tax rate over there in the UK? Let me tell you that I make less than the average person in my country and with the 30% less in gross taxes that we pay I can take that spare money and buy myself one helluva healthcare plan with money to spare that would trump any socialized healthcare plan any other country in this world offers. Just some more food for thought to add to the debate. There is no such thing as free. Anytime the govt takes something over, its gonna cost more than it would done privately due to the ridiculous ineffeciency of the public sector. Quote(just to say that the nhs has served me and my family well for many, many years. when i got hit by a prop and dashed off to hospital there were no insurance worries - just immediate treatment) Also its the same here for emergency treatment. They save your life first, then worry about how its gets paid for. And for the uninsured there's medicaid that covers emergency treatment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #56 May 22, 2009 Quote I know for those who fall out of the normal (bad accident, cancer, etc) in our system, it's horrific, but they represent a small minority. It's horrific everywhere, and government-run healthcare usually only makes it worse.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #57 May 22, 2009 top tax rate here is 50% and basic tax rate is 20% (how is your socialised military doing)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #58 May 22, 2009 Quote (how is your socialised military doing) We have a military so socialize everything else. Good point. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #59 May 22, 2009 QuoteQuote (how is your socialised military doing) We have a military so socialize everything else. Good point. you have an enormous socialised military (the largest in the world) (let's privatise it)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #60 May 22, 2009 Quote you have an enormous socialised military (the largest in the world) (let's privatise it) You guys need to get rid of your Queen and prime minister, as it's so outdated, and switch to something more modern. Once your political system grows up, then we could talk :P* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #61 May 22, 2009 Quote Quote you have an enormous socialised military (the largest in the world) (let's privatise it) You guys need to get rid of your Queen and prime minister, as it's so outdated, and switch to something more modern. Once your political system grows up, then we could talk :P we sure do need to get rid of the queen (the prime minister is going to be voted out next year)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #62 May 22, 2009 Quote we sure do need to get rid of the queen Good. Once you do it, we could talk :P* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #63 May 22, 2009 Quote Quote we sure do need to get rid of the queen Good. Once you do it, we could talk :P i love your big socialised banks as well meanwhile... Quote Just four days after standing next to President Obama and declaring their commitment to control health care costs to the tune of $2 trillion over 10 years, the insurance industry, drug and medical device makers, and hospital groups are backing off their promise: Hospitals and insurance companies said Thursday that President Obama had substantially overstated their promise earlier this week to reduce the growth of health spending. Mr. Obama invited health industry leaders to the White House on Monday to trumpet their cost-control commitments. But three days later, confusion swirled in Washington as the companies’ trade associations raced to tamp down angst among members around the country. … Health care leaders who attended the meeting have a different interpretation. They say they agreed to slow health spending in a more gradual way and did not pledge specific year-by-year cuts. “There’s been a lot of misunderstanding that has caused a lot of consternation among our members,” said Richard J. Umbdenstock, the president of the American Hospital Association. “I’ve spent the better part of the last three days trying to deal with it.” First, these groups are showing their true, dishonest colors. AHIP, the main insurance industry lobby group, sent out this press release from their fake grassroots campaign after the announcement: By reducing the rate of growth in health care spending by 1.5% each year, the nation can achieve a savings of $2 trillion over the next decade. This effort will have a direct effect on the budgets of individuals and families and will also go a long way in ensuring that every American have access to affordable, high-quality health care. Stay tuned for more information on this important initiative in the weeks and months ahead. http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/140051/that_didn%27t_take_long%3A_insurance_industry_breaks_promise_to_president_obama/stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #64 May 23, 2009 QuoteQuote (how is your socialised military doing) We have a military so socialize everything else. Good point. When you're spending more on your military than every other country put together and 30X more than countries with the same land mass and border length it's about public spending not defense. Without the cut we give to the paper share holders in the defense industry that'd be socialism. With America already being a socialist country, it'd be nice to see programs which benefit its citizens more directly and don't send a big cut to non-government owned corporations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #65 May 23, 2009 Ya know, McDreamydancer.... there are some differences in the culture between you Brits and us Yanks. What might work for you, might NOT work for us. Or we might not WANT that for us. You are welcome to make any changes to your country to live in an environment that you feel comfortable, but don't be imposing your imperialistic beliefs on other countries, m'kay. In fact... it's not just the drug companies and hospitals that are against some of the proposed items... but even the AMA has some concerns. (but I'm sure you're just considering them to be big selfish meanies) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #66 May 23, 2009 are the ama a union?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #67 May 23, 2009 Quoteare the ama a union? No. The American Medical Association is not a union. It is a voluntary association of physicians in the United States which sets standards for the medical profession and advocates on behalf of physicians. I kinda respect their opinion a touch higher than yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #68 May 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteare the ama a union? No. The American Medical Association is not a union. It is a voluntary association of physicians in the United States which sets standards for the medical profession and advocates on behalf of physicians. I kinda respect their opinion a touch higher than yours. QuoteCritics of the American Medical Association, including economist Milton Friedman, have asserted that the organization acts as a government-sanctioned guild and has attempted to increase physicians' wages and fees limit by influencing limitations on the supply of physicians and non-physician competition. In Free to Choose, Friedman said, "The AMA has engaged in extensive litigation charging chiropractors and osteopaths with the unlicensed practice of medicine, in an attempt to restrict them to as narrow an area as possible." Profession and monopoly, a book published in 1975 is critical of the AMA for limiting the supply of physicians and inflating the cost of medical care in the United States. The book claims that physician supply is kept low by the AMA to ensure high pay for practicing physicians. It states that in the United States the number, curriculum, and size of medical schools are restricted by state licensing boards controlled by representatives of state medical societies associated with the AMA. The book is also critical of the ethical rules adopted by the AMA which restrict advertisement and other types of competition between professionals, it points out that advertising and bargaining can result in expulsion from the AMA and legal revocation of licenses. The book also states that before 1912 the AMA included uniform fees for specific medical procedures in its official code of ethics. The AMA's influence on hospital regulation was also criticized in the book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Associationstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #69 May 23, 2009 now a wiki reference? "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #70 May 23, 2009 Quote now a wiki reference? no, that's a milton friedman reference (who's he you say)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #71 May 23, 2009 Quotenow a wiki reference? I think Friedman is right. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #72 May 23, 2009 Quote When you're spending more on your military than every other country put together Um... No. Quoteand 30X more than countries with the same land mass and border length it's about public spending not defense. As a percentage of GDP, we're around number 30 on the list. QuoteWith America already being a socialist country, It's not a scoialist country. It has socialist concepts like a police department and military. Having public service organizations to protect and keep order is not an excuse to socialize everything. Quoteit'd be nice to see programs which benefit its citizens more directly More directly than keeping them safe. Like what? Sending a check in the mail. Quoteand don't send a big cut to non-government owned corporations. The same corportations who's taxes pay for your programs. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #73 May 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteare the ama a union? No. The American Medical Association is not a union. It is a voluntary association of physicians in the United States which sets standards for the medical profession and advocates on behalf of physicians. I absolutely respect their opinion a hell of a lot higher than yours. QuoteCritics of the American Medical Association, including economist Milton Friedman, have asserted that the organization acts as a government-sanctioned guild and has attempted to increase physicians' wages and fees limit by influencing limitations on the supply of physicians and non-physician competition. In Free to Choose, Friedman said, "The AMA has engaged in extensive litigation charging chiropractors and osteopaths with the unlicensed practice of medicine, in an attempt to restrict them to as narrow an area as possible." Profession and monopoly, a book published in 1975 is critical of the AMA for limiting the supply of physicians and inflating the cost of medical care in the United States. The book claims that physician supply is kept low by the AMA to ensure high pay for practicing physicians. It states that in the United States the number, curriculum, and size of medical schools are restricted by state licensing boards controlled by representatives of state medical societies associated with the AMA. The book is also critical of the ethical rules adopted by the AMA which restrict advertisement and other types of competition between professionals, it points out that advertising and bargaining can result in expulsion from the AMA and legal revocation of licenses. The book also states that before 1912 the AMA included uniform fees for specific medical procedures in its official code of ethics. The AMA's influence on hospital regulation was also criticized in the book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association Calling bullshit on your wiki quote of someone so very important. I'm a D.O. and yet I'm in the AMA... I have never, nor have I EVER heard of the AMA suing a DO for their practice rights. I just don't think you really know what you're talking about. But, go ahead... post some more long quotes about what other people might think that they are talking about instead. Not that it contributes to the conversation, but it's amusing to see what you'll pull up next. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #74 May 25, 2009 He's quite right in (indirectly through random citation) pointing out at the AMA acts in its own self interest, which isn't always in sync with that of the consumers of medical care. Their actions against chiropractors in particular shows this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #75 May 25, 2009 Quote He's quite right in (indirectly through random citation) pointing out at the AMA acts in its own self interest, which isn't always in sync with that of the consumers of medical care. Their actions against chiropractors in particular shows this. random? - that was a precision guided citation stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
