dreamdancer 0 #1 May 7, 2009 a national health service would be another good idea for the us Quote"If there is no public insurance option…then this is not reform at all." That's what Governor Howard Dean said last night in a conference call with thousands of activists -- and he's absolutely right. As Dr. Dean noted, the battle for real reform begins Tuesday morning, when Senator Max Baucus chairs a Senate Finance Committee hearing that will look into the public plan option. Activists are writing messages on why such a plan is critical and Senator John Kerry will read some of them into the record at the hearing. The conference call -- organized by MoveOn and Democracy For America-- began with a story similar to that of too many citizens across the nation. MoveOn member Lisa Hall said she was in a car accident -- hit by a drunk driver -- and was laid off in the aftermath when she couldn't work. She lost her insurance, COBRA ran out, and the bills mounted as no insurance company would cover her due to pre-existing conditions. "Ultimately," Small said, "[I went into] bankruptcy, like so many others…. The healthcare in this country has to be accessible to everyone. Not just the healthy people or the rich. We're just working folks, trying to keep our jobs and what we've earned." Dean said the outcome of this fight will be determined by activists. We know what's coming -- charges of "socialized medicine", "you won't be able to choose your doctor", "a bureaucrat in Washington will make your healthcare decisions," etc. It will be up to the people to write letters to the editor, call your congressman, talk to neighbors. Myths will need to be debunked, front groups exposed, and money trails followed. Already, special interest groups are making robocalls and devoting millions of dollars to an anti-choice campaign. http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/139870/the_battle_for_healthcare_begins_/stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #2 May 7, 2009 No change will be made here until the deficit drops back on line with normal levels (ie, less than half a trillion at the least). While there would be some benefits, there's no way to derail the current train onto a new track without spending a buttload of money to get it going. And that money isn't here right now. Moreover, the people who need it least are the ones that vote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 62 #3 May 7, 2009 Quote a national health service would be another good idea for the us Quote "If there is no public insurance option…then this is not reform at all." That's what Governor Howard Dean said last night in a conference call with thousands of activists -- and he's absolutely right. As Dr. Dean noted, the battle for real reform begins Tuesday morning, when Senator Max Baucus chairs a Senate Finance Committee hearing that will look into the public plan option. Activists are writing messages on why such a plan is critical and Senator John Kerry will read some of them into the record at the hearing. The conference call -- organized by MoveOn and Democracy For America-- began with a story similar to that of too many citizens across the nation. MoveOn member Lisa Hall said she was in a car accident -- hit by a drunk driver -- and was laid off in the aftermath when she couldn't work. She lost her insurance, COBRA ran out, and the bills mounted as no insurance company would cover her due to pre-existing conditions. "Ultimately," Small said, "[I went into] bankruptcy, like so many others…. The healthcare in this country has to be accessible to everyone. Not just the healthy people or the rich. We're just working folks, trying to keep our jobs and what we've earned." Dean said the outcome of this fight will be determined by activists. We know what's coming -- charges of "socialized medicine", "you won't be able to choose your doctor", "a bureaucrat in Washington will make your healthcare decisions," etc. It will be up to the people to write letters to the editor, call your congressman, talk to neighbors. Myths will need to be debunked, front groups exposed, and money trails followed. Already, special interest groups are making robocalls and devoting millions of dollars to an anti-choice campaign. http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/139870/the_battle_for_healthcare_begins_/ A highly controversial topic and good arguments can be made for both sides. My opinion is based on experience as a former member of counter-culture socialism and what I hear about the breakdown of the healthcare system elsewhere. As a young man fed up with the management of the Vietnam War, I joined those who were turned on, tuned in and dropped out. I lived in a socialistic, communal experiment in several places in Florida, Colordado, New Mexico and California. I put my heart and soul into the movement from 1972 - 1983. In the end I came to realize that everyone sharing everything simply does not work. To paraphrase Margaret Thatcher, the problem with socialism where everyone lives off someone else's money is that eventually you run out of money. I live in Florida and we have a great influx of Canadians. They like the weather but they also come for economic opportunity and healthcare. I spent most of my professional life in social services. The field at all levels faces ongoing funding crises. The more free treatment and service provided, the more people seek it out. Funding does not provide adequate compensation, the workers become burned out and the services lack effectiveness. Furthermore, consider the axiom of the three P's namely, paperwork has priority over people. Employee evaluations are always focused on the ability to keep up with the paperwork. Without accurate paper flow, the funding is restricted and / or withdrawn. The bottom line in my opinion, take personal responsibility, stop being a victim, find a way to be legally productive, earn your income, buy what you need, including healthcare. For those who absolutely have their backs against the wall and need temporary assistance SHOULD be able to go to the church supported social services. Therein lies a big leap. Churches used to provide all the healthcare and social services. Now it seems that all they want to do is build bigger churches by stealing members from other churches. That's my $0.02. No one survives the journey of life.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #4 May 7, 2009 As long as the government doesn't screw with my health care plan that I have then I might be open to other options. I agree we need something for those that are not offered or can get health care, but the government should not eliminate private health care options like what has been proposed by some in congress. My health plan is very good. It is reasonable, they have not denied any claims and they pay the claims. About a year and a half ago I had a hip replacement. I had the surgery within three weeks of going to the orthopedic. I had follow-up physical therapy and was back to work in under three weeks. My total out of pocket cost was $300.00 and about another $45.00 for meds. I don't know of any government national socialized health care plan where I would have been taken care of that quickly or that well. By me being treated promptly, it resulted in less time off from work, less government assistance that I may have needed from being out of work longer and it had me back working and paying taxes sooner.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #5 May 7, 2009 So is it a myth that socialized medicine is socialized medicine? That is gonna be a hard myth to debunk. Also note the involvement of lobbies and lobbyists in this. Note how MoveOn won't be described by its supporters or itself as a lobby or its participants as lobbyists. It is a "grass roots" organization of "activist." I don't have a problem with it. It is what it is. Spin will be spun on both sides. And each side will be paranoid about the other side's paranoia. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #6 May 7, 2009 QuoteAs long as the government doesn't screw with my health care plan that I have then I might be open to other options. I agree we need something for those that are not offered or can get health care, but the government should not eliminate private health care options like what has been proposed by some in congress. My health plan is very good. It is reasonable, they have not denied any claims and they pay the claims. About a year and a half ago I had a hip replacement. I had the surgery within three weeks of going to the orthopedic. I had follow-up physical therapy and was back to work in under three weeks. My total out of pocket cost was $300.00 and about another $45.00 for meds. I don't know of any government national socialized health care plan where I would have been taken care of that quickly or that well. By me being treated promptly, it resulted in less time off from work, less government assistance that I may have needed from being out of work longer and it had me back working and paying taxes sooner. Mike many of the people who do not believe as we do about or health care system would have you rejected for the surgery or put off for some reason. I use the VA as it is all I have, but I can see from that situation how bad socialized medicine would be across the board if our government ran it. Any time our government runs something it becomes full or fraud and waste. I wonder how many billion dollar studies will be given to the political cronies to determine that whatever Obama says is best for us. Ask any medical professional if the government is suited to tell them how to do their jobs. We both know a few doctors that might just quit their jobs if this becomes true. How does this help national health care? It does not Socialized medicine is about power and control as well as corruption, it is not about helping the patient. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #7 May 7, 2009 So, we have the same people that howl about the problems with VA healthcare (run by the gov't) advocating.... letting the gov't run the REST of the healthcare industry? How the FUCK this makes sense to anyone is beyond me.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #8 May 7, 2009 QuoteSo, we have the same people that howl about the problems with VA healthcare (run by the gov't) advocating.... letting the gov't run the REST of the healthcare industry? How the FUCK this makes sense to anyone is beyond me. ...look at his profile....."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #9 May 7, 2009 QuoteQuoteSo, we have the same people that howl about the problems with VA healthcare (run by the gov't) advocating.... letting the gov't run the REST of the healthcare industry? How the FUCK this makes sense to anyone is beyond me. ...look at his profile..... I'm well aware he's from the UK... my post was a general response, not specifically to him.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #10 May 7, 2009 Believing science fiction as well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #11 May 7, 2009 What I find curious is that no one talks about it being a state issue. In Canada there is a constant struggle to shift power between local hospital boards and health authorities on one hand, and the provincial governments on the other. The local boards and authorities are more attuned to the particular vagarities of the delivery environment, whereas the province tends to be a little more hard-nosed about costs. NO-ONE wants the feds to run it. If Governor Dean wants this, why doesn't he legislate it for his state? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #12 May 7, 2009 Maybe we could learn alittle from our history. Governor Bradford wrote this in 1621 or 1623 forget the actual date but have I believe the correct writing. "The experience that was had in this commone course and condition, tired sundrie years, and that amongst godly and sober men, may well evince the vanitie of that conceite of Platos and other ancients, applauded by some of later times; that the taking away of propertie, and bringing in communitie into a comone wealth would make them happy and florishing; as if they were wiser than God. For this comunitie so farr as it was, was found to breed much confusion and discontente, and retard much imployment that would have been to their benefite and comforte. For the yong-men that were most able and fitte for labour and service did repine that they should spend their time and streingth to worke for other mens wives and children, with out any recompense. The strong, or man or parts, had no more in divission of victails and cloaths, than he that was weake and not able to doe a quarter the other could; this was thought injustice. The aged and graver men to be ranked and equalisedin labours, and victuals, cloaths, etc., wtih the meaner and younger sorte, thought it some indignite and disrespect unto them. And for men's wives to be commanded to doe service for other men, as dresing their meate, washing their cloaths, etc., they deemed it a kind of slavery, neither could many husbands well brooke it." When has it become one mans responsiblity to meet the needs of another man who is capable but yet not willing to meet his own obligations? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #13 May 7, 2009 QuoteThe Secret Right-Wing Strategy on Health Care—Exposed! Conservative pollster Frank Luntz recently provided right wingers on Capitol Hill a secret 28-page memo entitled The Language of Healthcare 2009—which has leaked! The memo was intended to offer a message framing strategy to defeat President Obama’s plan to provide health care for all. But the document is more useful to progressives than conservatives. Dr. Frank Luntz is a right-wing spinmeister who won broad influence by acting as pollster for Newt Gingrich, helping to frame the 1994 Republican Contract with America. Over the last dozen years, corporations and conservative ideologues have paid Luntz tens of millions of dollars to craft their messages, and his research has included “hundreds of thousands of telephone interviews, hundreds of dial sessions and focus groups, and literally a million research hours.” In short, he knows what he’s talking about. Luntz briefed House Republicans about his findings at a closed-door session yesterday (where he was very angry that his memo had been leaked). The memo is based on polling and dial sessions conducted within the last few weeks. If you want all the gory details, you can read the entire memo here. The substance can be grouped into three overall lessons for progressives. First, progressive pollsters have been entirely right about health care. Conservatives who oppose reform have very little public support. Progressives have conducted a great deal of survey research on health care over the past two years, much of it by top pollster Celinda Lake working with the Herndon Alliance, FamiliesUSA, AFL-CIO, and Health Care for America Now. Lake has made it clear that Americans strongly support progressive legislation to guarantee quality, affordable health care for all, as long as they can choose their doctor, their healthcare package, and their insurance provider. http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/139889/the_secret_right-wing_strategy_on_health_care%E2%80%94exposed%21/#morestay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #14 May 7, 2009 Clicky - video may be embedded, it's blocked over here so I can't tell. QuoteAt a speech on April 18, 2009 at a rally for healthcare reform in Chicago, Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) admitted that a strategic objective of the Obama healthcare reform plan is to destroy the private health insurance industry. Highlight of her statements: "I know many of you here today are single payer advocates and so am I ... and those of us who are pushing for a public health insurance don't disagree with this goal. This is not a principled fight. This is a fight about strategy for getting there and I believe we will," Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #15 May 7, 2009 I wonder how you would feel if some Americans started pushing for changes in your government over there? Wouldn't that be arrogant and imperialistic? Why the double standard?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #16 May 7, 2009 We already have a doctor shortage in this country. And you'd be shocked at the number of doctors I know who are already starting to ask themselves "Who is John Galt?"-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #17 May 7, 2009 Quote "Who is John Galt?" aaahh, another ayn rand freak stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #18 May 8, 2009 Quote Quote "Who is John Galt?" aaahh, another ayn rand freak Ahh. another one that insults those with differing beliefs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #19 May 8, 2009 QuoteDr. Frank Luntz is a right-wing spinmeister...Over the last dozen years, corporations and conservative ideologues have paid Luntz tens of millions of dollars to craft their messages Quote much of it by top pollster Celinda Lake working with the Herndon Alliance, FamiliesUSA, AFL-CIO, and Health Care for America Now. He's a spinmeister paid by corporations and ideologues. She's a "top pollster." She works with the Herndon Alliance (non-partisan - just like the Cato Institute). incidentally, they have their own memo that parallels exactly what the spinmeister did. http://www.herndonalliance.org/pdf/messaging-value_of_strong_public_role.pdf Interestingly, "avoid getting into details" is the NUMBER 1 OVERARCHING MESSAGE! The Herndon foundation describes how it's polls suggest people will be most positively responsive to health care. Boy, the spinmeister is such an asshole, he'd stoop to doing what the pro-government health care folks do. Or are the socialists stooping. That's it - discredit their messenger and pump up ours. FamiliesUSA? A partner of Herndon Alliance. A bit more centrist and informational for consumers. But advocating for governmental intervention. The AFL-CIO? A pro-business group - pro AFL-CIO. And after the AARP, the most powerful lobby in the nation. Healthcare for America Now is another lobby - interested in at least providing Americans with a choice of government healthcare or private care. So they've at least got a middle ground. Then again, it's the same thing we have now with medicaid, SCHIP, EMTALA, etc. QuoteLake has made it clear that Americans strongly support progressive legislation to guarantee quality, affordable health care for all, as long as they can choose their doctor, their healthcare package, and their insurance provider. Note - healthcare policy balances three things: (1) affordability; (2) quality; and (3) access. EACH of these has the same thing: (1) Mention affordability; (2) mention quality; (3) DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT AVAILABILITY! And don't get bogged down in the details, because the actual details will be DEATH to it. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #20 May 8, 2009 Quote While there would be some benefits, there's no way to derail the current train onto a new track without spending a buttload of money to get it going. And that money isn't here right now. No money hasn't stopped Barry, Harry & Nancy so far. Why will this be different? Just pull out Uncle Sam's credit card and let's get going.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #21 May 8, 2009 QuoteAt a speech on April 18, 2009 at a rally for healthcare reform in Chicago, Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) admitted that a strategic objective of the Obama healthcare reform plan is to destroy the private health insurance industry. Its about fucking time... When so many people who have paid and paid and paid into their "health insurance" find its time to use it.. and thier wonderful insurance provider willnot pay the bills... you realize that SOMETHING IS FUCKING WRONG.. and the crooks perpetrating this need to go to FUCKING JAIL. Its broke for a hell of a lot of working americans.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #22 May 8, 2009 QuoteIts broke for a hell of a lot of working americans.... And it works dam well for a lot of working Americans! Why can't we have both? Why does it have to be one way or the other?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #23 May 8, 2009 >And it works dam well for a lot of working Americans! Why can't we have both? I agree! I'd definitely support an official two-tier system to replace the dysfunctional one we have now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #24 May 8, 2009 Quote>And it works dam well for a lot of working Americans! Why can't we have both? I agree! I'd definitely support an official two-tier system to replace the dysfunctional one we have now. So, we'd be going from a dysfunctional two tier system with the bottom rung run by the government, to an official two tier system...with the bottom rung run by the government. The same folks that can't manage the healthcare that they already control.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #25 May 8, 2009 >we'd be going from a dysfunctional two tier system with the bottom >rung run by the government . . . Right now there's no "run by the government." No one runs it. People just don't pay, and hospitals close down as a result. Not a great result. BTW do you really consider veteran's hospitals "dysfunctional?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
