Allegiance – More to State or Nation?

[PLFXpert 0]

Quote

I think it's more of spectrum than two dichotomous options. It's not a light switch of either/or. But the relative prioritization.

Indeed.

I love my coastal Floridian culture. I have been fortunate enough to visit 42 of the 50 states. I am a coastal girl by heart and by proximity. I definitely feel a sense of loyalty and a strong connection to Florida; it is my home, always. My allegiance is most definitely first, and foremost, to the USA.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Quote

Scratch scratch... Also whats the deal with State Millitias????? Is that not just like a local terrorist training camp?

The vast majority aren't.

Um, maybe I missed the seriousness, but I thought he was (in jest) inquiring about National Guard units that were maintained by states governments.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

Interestingly, though, you've sort of illustrated my point very aptly. In a discussion about regional culture and group feeling, you've tried to discuss gun control (I think), which is probably not where a european mind would have leaped.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Quote

Do you feel a stronger sense of loyalty, allegiance, or connection to your State of residence or birth or to the overall nation as a whole?

end - I tend to give those things to individuals rather than concepts or associations

I tend to give to both.

I am loyal to individual friends, to colleagues, to bosses, and to the folks who work for me.

I also have a strong sense of loyalty to the US Government & its institutions (Big "G") and the ideals of governence (little "g") described in the Declaration of Independence, the US Constitution, and the tradition of rule of law. Support and defend the Constitution rather than _any_ particular administration's or individual's interpretation of those documents.

But isn't that pretty much what you said in post #15?
/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Scratch scratch... Also whats the deal with State Millitias????? Is that not just like a local terrorist training camp?

The vast majority aren't.

Um, maybe I missed the seriousness, but I thought he was (in jest) inquiring about National Guard units that were maintained by states governments.

By default, I treat almost all questions as serious and legitimate.

Some folks -- & not in any way to necessarily imply you -- may perceive that as silly or a weakness to exploit/mock.

Sarcasm, while observed in nearly all cultures around the world, is also culturally or regionally specific ... and frequently difficult to discern or poorly executed in ASCII or html mark-up text.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I can see people in SFO being annoyed that they have to deal with LA's demand for water.

I can see why - they tend to be self centered, hypocritical prats. The only difference between them on LA is that Hetch Hetchy was done a long time ago.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Concepts and morals are what we want to be tied to, not the symbol itself.

(I liked your whole post)
The above is pretty much the crux of the issue.
People want to have a symbol that represents the
values that they support.

A few centuries, an entire country would have a single
religion (hence, same moral code and leading moral
figure). That rarely exists in western pluralistic societies, even at a local level.

Countries had primary industries, educational policies, and ethno-centric populations.

In a non-global world, countries developed their institutions because the institutions fed the health of the society. Educational systems produced a better educated local populace. Businesses had a business-plan that spanned decades and were vested in the success of the town.

The idea that "90% of us agree about how we believe/work/live..." rarely applies today, unless the Taliban is going to stone you for disagreeing.

Probably the silliest extension of the idea is having "our sports team". A bunch of millionaires who move into town to work there and show open disdain for the populace and culture.

[Gawain 0]

I've lived in a dozen states, and definitely have favorites, but that's due to my allegiance to the United States as a whole, I've been able to enjoy the vast awesomeness of all we have in places like, Maine, Vermont, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Kentucky, Minnesota, Oregon and California.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Thanatos340 1]

Quote

>And here it was thought we were still here.

Unfortunately, about a quarter million southerners (about 5% of the free population at the time) aren't, as a result of that war.

And about 360,000 Union Soldiers.

It was the Bloodiest and most deadly war ever. More men died in that war than all other wars since that we have been involved in combined.

Respect for those that stood up for their beliefs and died on the battlefield still runs very deep in this culture. No one knows the sacrifices and hardships our fore fathers endured more than a Southerner. It is ingrained in our culture. I live next to a Civil War Battle ground where 4000 men died fighting for their beliefs. Some of those beliefs I find abhorrent, wrong and disgusting (Slavery) but others such as the States Rights are still held very near and dear to the hearts of most southerners.

The war was lost but the principals for which that war was fought remain embedded in our culture 140 years later. Respect for those that stood and died for those beliefs stands strong and also is part of the culture.

The original question was about State Loyalty vs National Loyalty. In the case of many southerners, that is one and the same. It is loyalty Not to an administration, Not to a Party, Not to a particular government but it is Loyalty to Constitution of the US as it was originally intended. When the federal government over step its bounds, I guess my loyalty would be to the State if the State is the one following the Constitution.

Beyond just the war, Other aspects of Southern Culture I do take great pride in.
Courtesy, Honesty, Chivalry, Independence, Self Reliance and Integrity.
While these traits are certainly not exclusive to Southerners, They are things that are highly respected in southern culture.

The culture is also plagued with bigotry and ignorance but those traits are fading and hopefully will one day be eradicated.

I do take pride in being a southerner (And yes, I have lived up north and out west). I prefer the south and the positive aspects of the culture.

Nerd Girl, You want a taste of real southern culture sometime (OTP), I will take you to my moms house for some Collard Greens, Corn Bread, Fat Back, Blackeyed Peas, Pork Chops and best damn Peach cobbler anywhere guaranteed to be followed by Good old traditional southern gossip and tall tales. If you don’t leave with a smile on your face I will eat my proverbial hat.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I think an individual's intelligence makes a real difference on this issue.

Or perhaps the individual's understanding of history and the construct of his country (in regards to the USA).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Thanatos340 1]

Quote

I'm guessing most people would. Most people thought the subject of the film was something else entirely, especially those that didn't watch it.

Let's find out if anybody does know what I'm talking about. We'll probably have to detach this part of the thread at some point.

My guess is you are referring to "Bowling for Columbine" and its cometary on the Climate of Fear.

You would be shocked at how much of that movie I agreed with, The problem was the False and inaccurate information portrayed as "Documentary" and sensationalism clouded that message.

And that horse has been beat and you are correct, Entirely another conversation.

[dropdeded 0]

I voted USA, over this going to hell state of california that I've spent almost all of my 45 years in

------------------------------------------
The Dude Abides.
-

[akarunway 1]

ME! Fuck em all. You think any govt., state or federal gives a fuck about YOU? Wake up and smell the coffee. I know you are VERY intelligent.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Butters 0]

Quote

Quote

I think an individual's intelligence makes a real difference on this issue.

Or perhaps the individual's understanding of history and the construct of his country (in regards to the USA).

Wouldn't an individual's understanding of history and the construct of their country (in regards to the USA) be a part of an individual's intelligence?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I think that makes a real difference on this issue.

I think an individual's intelligence makes a real difference on this issue.

I'm also curious to understand better the argument underlying the intelligence (or lack thereof) correlation.

I believe that the United States of America has been and currently is one of the greatest countries because (in my opinion) it has and currently does allow the most individual freedom while still maintaining order and justice. I believe the founding fathers of this great country were intelligent and had an allegiance to principles, not to states or nations.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Seriously, nationalism is a rather quaint notion left over from the 18th century when it began to replace the inferior notion of empire or monarchy.

I think your response is worthy of its own thread. Intellectually provocaive & thread worthy.
Yes, the dominant structure in international affairs is based on man-made Westphalian nation-state system.


Really smart folks like historian/war studies scholar Martin von Crevald, playwright/former Czech President Vaclav Havel, and others have suggested that the end of the Westphalian-based nation-state system is near.

While I agree that there are challenges to it – mostly from technology and technologically-enabled globalization. (Globalization is a lot older, imo, than most popular conceptions; it’s the speed, scale, and capacity that is unprecedented.) Electrons don’t respect territorial boundaries, e.g., cyber. And transnational organizations and globalization are an increasingly source of power or power with which nation-states have to grapple/deal, whether or not one agrees with Tom Friedman’s “The World is Flat.”

Otoh, one with only a very few rare exceptions gets a passport from anything other than a nation-state. There are no more “Nansen passports.”

Quote

In the final analysis it is just as damaging as tribalism, sectarianism, racism, or any of the myriad other ways we define people as "not us."

Are such groupings, clusterings, or affiliations inherently damaging by nature or at a fundamental level? I can think of examples in which they have arguably yield benefits beyond their own constituency. Or are they a pragmatic consequence of disparity in power (& all things that represent power)?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

I'm fascinated by the recent movement towards secession in states like Texas. Not so much by the overall sentiment - Texas has been an independently minded state for a long time - but by the rapid change from flag-flying, US-bumper-sticker-sportin Texans to the new anti-United-States Texan (who, apparently, thinks some colors DO run - at least 25% of the time.)

I get the feeling that even the 18% of Texans who support secession are doing so because they know it can't really happen, but they want to get some attention from the popular press.

Your observations in some way reflect my curiosity in bringing the question to SC. There are quite a few outspoken States rights advocates here. Relative prioritization is not implicit in that … but examples like you cite above open the door for less certain scenarios.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Butters 0]

Quote

Quote

Seriously, nationalism is a rather quaint notion left over from the 18th century when it began to replace the inferior notion of empire or monarchy.

Really smart folks like historian/war studies scholar Martin von Crevald, playwright/former Czech President Vaclav Havel, and others have suggested that the end of the Westphalian-based nation-state system is near.

Back to my belief that intelligence makes a real difference ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Seriously, nationalism is a rather quaint notion left over from the 18th century when it began to replace the inferior notion of empire or monarchy.

Really smart folks like historian/war studies scholar Martin von Crevald, playwright/former Czech President Vaclav Havel, and others have suggested that the end of the Westphalian-based nation-state system is near.

Back to my belief that intelligence makes a real difference ...

Hmmm ... guess that means, by that metric, that I'm a dummy - ... cause my neorealist self doesn't foresee nation-states as the dominant structure in the anarchic international system disappearing anytime soon.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[Butters 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Seriously, nationalism is a rather quaint notion left over from the 18th century when it began to replace the inferior notion of empire or monarchy.

Really smart folks like historian/war studies scholar Martin von Crevald, playwright/former Czech President Vaclav Havel, and others have suggested that the end of the Westphalian-based nation-state system is near.

Back to my belief that intelligence makes a real difference ...

Hmmm ... guess that means, by that metric, that I'm a dummy - ...

You're a dummy. Having read your posts, if you're a dummy than I'm probably retarded.

Quote

cause my neorealist self doesn't foresee nation-states as the dominant structure in the anarchic international system disappearing anytime soon.

We must think beyond our time that is fleeting ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

Edit: Go Milky Way

Personally, I find your galactocentricity to be quite distasteful. One day we might need to move to a planet in Andromeda if we find no other habitable ones in our galaxy once our sun eats up our solar system.

It's attitudes like yours that cause disharmony and chaos in the cosmos.

I might, however, buy into some form of quadrantocentricity if gorphons from parallel universes were to warp themselves into our galaxy via the unseen higher dimensions and take jobs and siphon welfare benefits to their alternate brane of reality. Fortunately that hasn't happened...yet.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

It's worse than that. Species 8472 will eat our young if we don't keep them out.

[livendive 8]

Quote

I never really understood geographical "pride." To me it just doesn't make any sense at all.

That. "Proud to be an American" doesn't make much sense for anyone born here. I'm HAPPY to be an American, but I didn't have anything to do with making that be the case, so why would I be proud of it? A legal immigrant is the only person I can understand taking pride in his citizenry, because he made it happen. The rest of us just got lucky.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

It's worse than that. Species 8472 will eat our young if we don't keep them out.

Wow, H1N1 has nothing on these guys:

Quote

Cellular characteristics
A designation given by the Borg (the species' real name is unknown, although the Hirogen refer to them as 'Fluidians'), Species 8472 has a dense genetic structure, with each cell containing more than a hundred times the genetic material than that of a human cell because of their triple-helix DNA structure. On the cellular level, Species 8472's own somatic cells can become extremely virulent when in a foreign blood-stream, duplicating themselves rapidly. When a Species 8472 attacks a victim with its claws, some of the former's cells are left in the wound. These stray cells multiply, spreading out through the victim's entire body, consuming it from the inside out while the victim remains conscious. As the attacking cells employ the same advanced immune response as when inside the creature, they are able to resist conventional treatment methods.

Species 8472 are telepathic and in Star Trek: Voyager send Kes and Tuvok telepathic messages.


Physiology
Species 8472's anatomy is unique in that they possess three five-jointed, even-toed ungulate feet or hooves. They have cross shaped pupils, and communicate exclusively through telepathy. They have a tall, thin, skeletal body that possess very little soft-tissue, and appendages appear to be supported by sinuous strands of muscle. Their outward appearance is marked mainly by bony crests located on their chest and disproportionately large heads, giving them a generally gangly appearance. They have as many as five genders, each of which apparently occupies a different region of Fluidic Space.
....

Members of Species 8472 exclusively attack with their claws and raw strength; they never use a handheld weapon, instead allowing their superior immune system to be used in an offensive role.

We should take preemptive measures, ASAP.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

Quote

Scratch scratch... Also whats the deal with State Millitias????? Is that not just like a local terrorist training camp?

The vast majority aren't.

There have been a few self-styled militia groups or individuals who have affiliated with militias who have attempted or poorly executed terrorism. They're usually more accurately referred to as anti-government groups but sometimes get erroneously merged with militia groups, like the "Michigan Miltia." E.g., in 1991, the Minnesota Patroits Council obtained ricin (real stuff not just castor beans/castor bean mush) and planned to use it to kill a U.S. deputy marshal, local law enforcement officials, and IRS officials. Three or four of the members were convicted under the Biological Weapons Anti-Terrorism Act (BWAT). There are other examples; that's just the one I know best off the top of my head.

/Marg

Why did they want to do that? I don't see how anyone can attempt terrorism against their own democratic government and call themselves Patriots. Sound more like traitors.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca