Allegiance – More to State or Nation?

[nerdgirl 0]

Blatantly USA-centric poll


I’ve lived in 5 States (California, Georgia, Illinois, Michigan, and Virginia), and I spend a lot of time in another (Colorado). I don’t have any specific or stronger allegiance to any one over the other. And my primary allegiance to the USA trumps them all.

Speaking with some friends from church last night, one brought up a recent bill signed into law by Georgia's Governor Sonny Perdue "celebrating the Confederate States of America." The initial discussion related to racial issues, history (the good and the very bad), Southern culture & heritage, identity, etc.

My first thought was: the Confederate States tried to break away from the USA. It was a 19th Century insurgency that became an outright war. Recognition and respect of the importance and historical significance I appreciate. At the same time, what motivation would I have to "celebrate" something that challenged/threatened my nation? The discussion then shifted to loyalty to a State versus the nation.

Like many things that come into conversation, if one goes to the actual text of the bill, Georgia SB27 it's both more sophisticated than a 4-line commercial news-blip ... and at the same time it does say:

"The month of April of each year is hereby designated as Confederate History and Heritage Month and shall be set aside to honor, observe, and celebrate the Confederate States of America, its history, those who served in its armed forces and government, and all those millions of its citizens of various races and ethnic groups and religions who contributed in sundry and myriad ways to the cause which they held so dear from its founding on February 4, 1861, in Montgomery, Alabama, until the Confederate ship CSS Shenandoah sailed into Liverpool Harbor and surrendered to British authorities on November 6, 1865."

Do you feel a stronger sense of loyalty, allegiance, or connection to your State of residence or birth or to the overall nation as a whole?

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[matthewcline 0]

I answered USA over State.
It may have a bit to do with my 21 years of service and not really staying in a state for very long till now. So I could change my opinion later.

I also think I would move if TN started to do things I really could not agree to or even accept as "OK" or just corrupt politics business as usuall.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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Do you feel a stronger sense of loyalty, allegiance, or connection to your State of residence or birth or to the overall nation as a whole?

end - I tend to give those things to individuals rather than concepts or associations

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 4]

I never really understood geographical "pride." To me it just doesn't make any sense at all.

I'm really confused by certain people that place a large amount of emphasis on the state they might have been born in . . . like they had a choice in the matter?

I'm much more interested in the nation as a whole.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rehmwa 2]

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I never really understood geographical "pride." To me it just doesn't make any sense at all.

I'm really confused by certain people that place a large amount of emphasis on the state they might have been born in . . . like they had a choice in the matter?

I'm much more interested in the nation as a whole.

I'm really confused by certain people that place a large amount of emphasis on the nation they might have been born in . . . like they had a choice in the matter?




But any of those Andromeda galaxy refugees come over and take our jobs, I'll raise heck. GO Milky Way!! The best damn galaxy in the quadrant

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[quade 4]

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I'm really confused by certain people that place a large amount of emphasis on the nation they might have been born in . . . like they had a choice in the matter?

I believe I explained that adequately.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TomAiello 26]

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I never really understood geographical "pride." To me it just doesn't make any sense at all.

A lot depends on where you were born and/or raised.

I'm from California, and the whole regional pride thing seems kind of alien to me.

My wife is from Georgia. The whole regional pride thing is so ingrained in her (and virtually all of her friends and family) that they have trouble understanding my take on it.

Honestly, I think it's kind of cool. That regional pride thing is just another aspect of the uniquely Southern culture of part of the country.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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I never really understood geographical "pride." To me it just doesn't make any sense at all.

I'm really confused by certain people that place a large amount of emphasis on the state they might have been born in . . . like they had a choice in the matter?

I'm much more interested in the nation as a whole.

I'm really confused by certain people that place a large amount of emphasis on the nation they might have been born in . . . like they had a choice in the matter?




But any of those Andromeda galaxy refugees come over and take our jobs, I'll raise heck. GO Milky Way!! The best damn galaxy in the quadrant

+1

Seriously, nationalism is a rather quaint notion left over from the 18th century when it began to replace the inferior notion of empire or monarchy. In the final analysis it is just as damaging as tribalism, sectarianism, racism, or any of the myriad other ways we define people as "not us."

[billvon 3,114]

I'm fascinated by the recent movement towards secession in states like Texas. Not so much by the overall sentiment - Texas has been an independently minded state for a long time - but by the rapid change from flag-flying, US-bumper-sticker-sportin Texans to the new anti-United-States Texan (who, apparently, thinks some colors DO run - at least 25% of the time.)

I get the feeling that even the 18% of Texans who support secession are doing so because they know it can't really happen, but they want to get some attention from the popular press.

[Butters 0]

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Honestly, I think it's kind of cool.

Honestly, I think it's comical at best ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[downwardspiral 0]

I grew up an Air Force brat and used to go to the movies on base all the time. The national anthem would play prior to the beginning of the movie and every airman would be at attention, hats removed, with their hands over their hearts (saluting if in uniform). As a youngster it made me so proud to be among such fine people who actually gave a shit about their country. To this day, when I hear the Star Spangled Banner or other patriotic songs, my eyes water and I wish like hell I was in uniform with my cover on so I could salute the colors.

Edited because I don't want to hijack marg's thread.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Butters 0]

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And for people who think it's silly to have national pride...have you served your country?

Can you define "serve my country"?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[downwardspiral 0]

I didn't specify for a reason.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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And for people who think it's silly to have national pride...have you served your country?

Osama Bin Laden serves his God.

[rehmwa 2]

I see no real issues with tying who you are and what you believe in to something that would represent those feelings. Geography, parties, company, family, etc. Provided you don't forget why you're tying to that region (or whatever)

I just think it's a roundabout way to reinforce your beliefs. An extra, unnecessary, step, if you will.

The issue, is when you forget about the 'basis' of what that symbolizes and, instead, blindly follow the symbol without understanding why it's so important.

Concepts and morals are what we want to be tied to, not the symbol itself. I doubt a person would tear up at a flag burning just over the loss of that blanket, but because they'd tied their values to that blanket as a symbol of what they believe in.

Do I have allegiance to my country? Yes, but not because it's where I was born, but because it tries to support freedom of thought, individualism, etc. I'd have no issue feeling connection to anywhere that stood for those ideals also.

Other places have some of the same values. If born and raised in another culture, maybe I'd have a different outlook altogether. But this is where I am.

I'd really rather respect those individuals that live that way than some concept that mushes all of us into some stereotyped mold which is now not quite right for any of us.

Which, frankly, is another thing the country is supposed to stand for - that we aren't all built to that form.


I see allegiance to flags without understanding what it means. That's why I laugh at kids that want to have a Confederate Flag on their car. It's also why I laugh at those that want to outlaw the same symbol. The symbol means little when neither side really practices their morals and, instead, just argue over some outdated symbol for the sake of winning the argument.

symbols are wierd - it's easier to just be who you need to be and take others one at a time. But, if someone needs a symbol - more power to them.

Edit: Go Milky Way

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Thanatos340 1]

I think it is more Cultural Pride than Regional pride although in this case the Culture is defined by the region.

I am from the south and do understand some of the Pride in the Southern Culture. (And ashamed of other parts of the history/culture)

I had this conversation with my Cuban sister inlaw one time. She is one that is very proud of her Cuban heritage and culture. I tried to explain to her the Southern Pride thing was similar.

Being Southern is an Ethnic distinction. Most ethnic groups exhibit some for of pride.

Many southerners are very proud of the stand taken in the war of northern aggression. It was a war fought for cause (Far more than just slavery), It was a war fought over States Right and tariffs.

My Loyalty is to my Country first up to a Point. When the country no longer represents the ideals and Beliefs it was founded on, Then I would gladly join another confederacy to get the country back on track and back to the principals it was founded on.

I see the Confederate Flag as a Reminder to the Federal Government that the States will not be pushed around. This is the UNITED STATES of America. Our constitution clearly intended for the States to have power with a very LIMITED federal Government. Now over the past 200 years that power has shifted greatly.

[TomAiello 26]

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Honestly, I think it's kind of cool.

Honestly, I think it's comical at best ...

Where are you from?

I think that makes a real difference on this issue.

It's kind of like the gun issues--most Europeans have absolutely no idea why some Americans get so fired up about them.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 3,114]

>I see the Confederate Flag as a Reminder to the Federal Government
>that the States will not be pushed around.

Actually, it's sort of a reminder that the Federal Government _can_ push the states around, and if you try to resist they will destroy you.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'm from California, and the whole regional pride thing seems kind of alien to me.

There is very little regionalism in California, though those living on the coast find most of the country pretty alien. Or even the valley.

But up here in the Bay Area, we do have a comical form of regionalism where they want to be distinct from LA, and support the idea of a Northern California as a separate state. It's cute that they think that the real Northern Cal would want SF in it. They also rant about LA taking their water, when SF is fed by Yosemite.

[rehmwa 2]

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most Europeans

Bucketing all Euro's in a single demographic is like saying all New Yorkers are the same as all Montanans

So a European who is really 'nationalistic' wouldn't be much different than a Georgian being very 'statalistic'

you heard me ...... "statalistic"

I make up words instead of going and looking up the correct one.

That's right.

(seriously, isn't that the whole reason this thread will derail itself eventually? the "istics" are all so subjectively defined, that we'll bog down just from each individuals bias towards what they think the word "nationalism" means - it can have the entire range of positive to negative connotations. And you can't have a clear debate as soon as one person biased all the way to one end tries to one up someone from the other end)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[downwardspiral 0]

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I see no real issues with tying who you are and what you believe in to something that would represent those feelings. Geography, parties, company, family, etc. Provided you don't forget why you're tying to that region (or whatever)

I just think it's a roundabout way to reinforce your beliefs. An extra, unnecessary, step, if you will.

The issue, is when you forget about the 'basis' of what that symbolizes and, instead, blindly follow the symbol without understanding why it's so important.

Concepts and morals are what we want to be tied to, not the symbol itself. I doubt a person would tear up at a flag burning just over the loss of that blanket, but because they'd tied their values to that blanket as a symbol of what they believe in.

Do I have allegiance to my country? Yes, but not because it's where I was born, but because it tries to support freedom of thought, individualism, etc. I'd have no issue feeling connection to anywhere that stood for those ideals also.

Other places have some of the same values. If born and raised in another culture, maybe I'd have a different outlook altogether. But this is where I am.

I'd really rather respect those individuals that live that way than some concept that mushes all of us into some stereotyped mold which is now not quite right for any of us.

Which, frankly, is another thing the country is supposed to stand for - that we aren't all built to that form.


I see allegiance to flags without understanding what it means. That's why I laugh at kids that want to have a Confederate Flag on their car. It's also why I laugh at those that want to outlaw the same symbol. The symbol means little when neither side really practices their morals and, instead, just argue over some outdated symbol for the sake of winning the argument.

symbols are wierd - it's easier to just be who you need to be and take others one at a time. But, if someone needs a symbol - more power to them.

Edit: Go Milky Way

Excellent post!

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Thanatos340 1]

Hmmm. And here it was thought we were still here.

There are times when you fight even when you KNOW you are going to get your ass kicked because not standing up would hurt worse.

If it gets bad enough, People will resist. Even if they know they will loose in the end.

Maybe that is just another bit of Southern Culture.

[TomAiello 26]

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most Europeans

Bucketing all Euro's in a single demographic is like saying all New Yorkers are the same as all Montanans

I dunno...I'd be willing to bet money that 50% plus 1 (most) of the europeans really are scratching their heads in puzzlement as to why we (citizens of the USA) get so fired up about firearms issues.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 3,114]

> They also rant about LA taking their water, when SF is fed by Yosemite.

Well, SF water comes from Yosemite (and a lot of other places) and LA water comes from SF. They are quite literally taking SF's water. Google "Oroville Dam" on Google Maps, and note that it is a major source of LA's water.

[TomAiello 26]

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There are times when you fight even when you KNOW you are going to get your ass kicked because not standing up would hurt worse.

If it gets bad enough, People will resist. Even if they know they will loose in the end.

Maybe that is just another bit of Southern Culture.

"You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

I guess that WC must have been a Southerner.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com