Arlen Specter becomes a Dem!

[jcd11235 0]

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I don't blame Republicans for being pissed. Oh, I can understand any person deciding it's time to switch parties. I can also understand Specter and other moderate Rockefeller-style Republicans feeling like their party has shat upon them since 1980. But (absent extreme provocation) I generally don't like elected office-holders, especially legislators, who switch party in the middle of their term. It's a betrayal of the electorate who voted them into office.

Too bad the practical realities of the system don't let Specter complete his term as a Republican and then simply run for re-election as a Democrat, because that would be a more honorable way to do it. Another honorable way would be for Specter to resign his seat, then switch parties, and then run for "election back in" as a Democrat.

I think Republicans who voted for Specter because he was the Republican candidate have every right to feel defrauded.

While I understand your concern, I disagree that Specter's switch defrauded the electorate who voted for him. We select candidates when we cast our ballots, not parties. While some people may base their choice of candidate on the political party with which he/she is affiliated, the vote is cast for an individual, by an individual.

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[idrankwhat 0]

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I believe that is your position. Frankly, the Rep's to many of us has done nothing but drift leftward since Reagan.

And I believe that is your position. Frankly, the Dem's to many of us have done nothing but drift rightward since Carter. I'm not sure if neither of us is wrong or if we're both right. Which is why I believe that Specter is a solidly centrist Demoblican/Republicrat.

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't blame Republicans for being pissed. Oh, I can understand any person deciding it's time to switch parties. I can also understand Specter and other moderate Rockefeller-style Republicans feeling like their party has shat upon them since 1980. But (absent extreme provocation) I generally don't like elected office-holders, especially legislators, who switch party in the middle of their term. It's a betrayal of the electorate who voted them into office.

Too bad the practical realities of the system don't let Specter complete his term as a Republican and then simply run for re-election as a Democrat, because that would be a more honorable way to do it. Another honorable way would be for Specter to resign his seat, then switch parties, and then run for "election back in" as a Democrat.

I think Republicans who voted for Specter because he was the Republican candidate have every right to feel defrauded.

You've been consistent on this argument regardless of which party a guy switches from and to. ie regardles of which parties benefits

Agree or not, that's respectable.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I believe that is your position. Frankly, the Rep's to many of us has done nothing but drift leftward since Reagan.

And I believe that is your position. Frankly, the Dem's to many of us have done nothing but drift rightward since Carter. I'm not sure if neither of us is wrong or if we're both right. Which is why I believe that Specter is a solidly centrist Demoblican/Republicrat.

and our positions are pretty clear that what's really happening is the (social) center is being systematically abandoned or just given lip service by the parties to help win the popularity contest (with no real substance) that is our national election process

I actually live on the other axis,

we have 4 parties now

1 - super dems - spend spend spend, here's my list of social programs
2 - dem light (AKA neo republicans) - me too, I can spend more - my list is slightly different, but can't really tell it is
3 - wacko lefties and nutjobs - spend it all on me, make people think like me
4 - wacko righties and nutjos - spend it all on me, make people think like me, and go to church

the big gaping hole is the fiscal conservative/keep the social stuff private and personal


sorry - you've heard that few times and most of us kind of fall into that category


but we aren't talking about our positions which we each respect for each other, etc

we're talking about Specter's true motivation for switching - I though Leiberman was sincere, I think Spector's is clearly not sincere

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Andy9o8 3]

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While I understand your concern, I disagree that Specter's switch defrauded the electorate who voted for him. We select candidates when we cast our ballots, not parties. While some people may base their choice of candidate on the political party with which he/she is affiliated, the vote is cast for an individual, by an individual.

You're only technically correct. And I have every respect for a voter who votes for a candidate based on the "who" of the candidate, not the party. But I still think that there's a huge portion of the electorate - my sense is that it's better than 50% - for whom the partyy of the candidate is is the #1 or close #2 reason for voting for that candidate. That's the basis for my position.

[Andy9o8 3]

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we're talking about Specter's true motivation for switching - I though Leiberman was sincere, I think Spector's is clearly not sincere

I think you;'re right about Lieberman, but half right/half wrong about Specter. I think in his ideological heart-of-hearts Specter hasn't really been a true Republican in his life. (He switched parties early in his political career, basically as an office-running tactic, so this is actually the 2nd time he's done this in his career.). I think Specter's sole reason for making this switch is to get himself re-elected, even if the result is to place him (back) where his ideological heart truly is.

[rehmwa 2]

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we're talking about Specter's true motivation for switching - I though Leiberman was sincere, I think Spector's is clearly not sincere

I think you;'re right about Lieberman, but half right/half wrong about Specter. I think in his ideological heart-of-hearts Specter hasn't really been a true Republican in his life. (He switched parties early in his political career, basically as an office-running tactic, so this is actually the 2nd time he's done this in his career.). I think Specter's sole reason for making this switch is to get himself re-elected, even if the result is to place him (back) where his ideological heart truly is.

nope, that's my position too

Spector's doing this to be electable - 1st and only priority

The point that this is more aligned to his politics is true, I agree. but I bet it has zero to do with his decision other than it makes it easier on him

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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While I understand your concern, I disagree that Specter's switch defrauded the electorate who voted for him. We select candidates when we cast our ballots, not parties. While some people may base their choice of candidate on the political party with which he/she is affiliated, the vote is cast for an individual, by an individual.

You're only technically correct. And I have every respect for a voter who votes for a candidate based on the "who" of the candidate, not the party. But I still think that there's a huge portion of the electorate - my sense is that it's better than 50% - for whom the partyy of the candidate is is the #1 or close #2 reason for voting for that candidate. That's the basis for my position.

I certainly agree that many, if not most, voters cast ballots based on party affiliation. However, that isn't how the system is designed. If their voting strategy backfires, the onus should not be on the elected official; it should be on the electorate, IMO.

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[idrankwhat 0]

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Spector's doing this to be electable - 1st and only priority

I can't see it that narrowly. Factors to consider include:
He conducts himself in a bipartisan manner.
His electorate shifted a bit left.
His party has tried to marginalize him and has threatened to cut him off from the RNC teet and not support him in the upcoming election.
Humpty Dumpty was pushed.

[Andy9o8 3]

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His party has tried to marginalize him and has threatened to cut him off from the RNC teet and not support him in the upcoming election.

True enough, but that's also the party that has funded and supported his Senate candidacies over the past 20 years. And it can also be said that vis-avis the GOP, Specter has marginalized himself to an extent. By that, I mean: there are some "acid test"votes on which a legislator absolutely, positively must vote the party line. The stimulus package bill was such a vote. The GOP were united in opposition to the bill, but Specter fucked 'em, and basically cast a crucially pivotal vote that got the bill passed. You don't get to have your party fund your candidacy when you've just fucked-over said party in a major way. There's no "I" in "t-e-a-m".

[idrankwhat 0]

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True enough, but that's also the party that has funded and supported his Senate candidacies over the past 20 years. And it can also be said that vis-avis the GOP, Specter has marginalized himself to an extent. By that, I mean: there are some "acid test"votes on which a legislator absolutely, positively must vote the party line. The stimulus package bill was such a vote. The GOP were united in opposition to the bill, but Specter fucked 'em, and basically cast a crucially pivotal vote that got the bill passed. You don't get to have your party fund your candidacy when you've just fucked-over said party in a major way. There's no "I" in "t-e-a-m".

I know why they threatened him. But look what it got them, a slightly smaller minority and startlingly close to becoming politically impotent. And Specter certainly wasn't thinking of himself or his re-election bid when he cast that vote. I guess he decided that the team he was playing for was a larger one.
I could be way off, but I don't think so.
As an aside, even as a Dem I don't expect him to vote with them all of the time. That's the only consolation I have with regard to his switch. I like to think that when Franken seats that we only have a "filibuster resistant" majority.