50% income tax for earners of £150k and above

[TomAiello 26]

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Beyond that, though, there is simply no financial incentive for things like the Hubble Telescope, the Apollo missions, the Spirit/Opportunity rovers and future exploratory missions. No one will pay billions for the data such missions send back, and thus going to a private model effectively ends such exploration.

Two thoughts:

1) If the government simply put out contracts for the data, that would create a demand that could be filled by private industry. I'd bet that the reason we don't see too much private space exploration going on is because the private companies can't compete with a totally subsidized (government) competitor, who, just to make things more difficult, has a 100% lock on all contracts.

2) If the information isn't worth that much money, why are we buying it, again?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rehmwa 2]

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There are none so blind as those who will not see.

sure, except for the blind of course



what has 3 legs, 3 hands and 3 eyes

Peggy Bundy

that was funny, but I don't know why


answer: two pirates

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,595]

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2) If the information isn't worth that much money, why are we buying it, again?

So, monetary worth is the only indicator of value, is it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[TomAiello 26]

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2) If the information isn't worth that much money, why are we buying it, again?

So, monetary worth is the only indicator of value, is it?

That's the definition of value, isn't it?

I'm not saying the information has no value.

I'm saying that if we properly value it (meaning we're willing to pay some amount for it), then we ought to be willing to pay less than that amount. Which means that if we put the gathering of the information to a competitive process, rather than awarding all contracts to one government owned entity, we ought to be able to get more of the information for the same cost.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jerryzflies 0]

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2) If the information isn't worth that much money, why are we buying it, again?

So, monetary worth is the only indicator of value, is it?

That's the definition of value, isn't it?

.

That's a very shallow and short sighted definition of value.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[TomAiello 26]

Money is a tool. It allows us to prioritize our wants and needs, and determine how much we value things by assigning them monetary values.

Do you value time with your children? How much? Well, most people sell their time to their employer at a certain rate per hour. That tells us how much they value their time, overall. If they valued their time with their children more, they'd work less, and vice versa.

How much is a skydive worth to you? If that's more than the jump ticket price at your local DZ, you're off to jump. If not, then you're doing something else.

Using a tool to assign value to things makes decisions easier, and helps us to clearly define our priorities. It does not mean we are making poor decisions--most people choose to spend time with the family rather than going to work every weekend.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jakee 1,595]

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Do you value time with your children?

Do you value your wife? What would you pay her to love you?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

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So, monetary worth is the only indicator of value, is it?

That's the definition of value, isn't it?

No.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Money is a tool. It allows us to prioritize our wants and needs, and determine how much we value things by assigning them monetary values.

Do you value time with your children? How much? Well, most people sell their time to their employer at a certain rate per hour. That tells us how much they value their time, overall. If they valued their time with their children more, they'd work less, and vice versa.

So, someone who works two full time jobs in order to make ends meet and to try to provide a better life for his kids than he had doesn't value his family as much as someone who doesn't have the drive to keep a job and relies on charity to provide food and clothing for his kids because he'd rather stay home and watch Springer?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

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Do you value time with your children?

Do you value your wife? What would you pay her to love you?

@TomAiello:

Clearly, by your standards, if you have a job outside the home, your family has a finite monetary value to you. For what price would you sell them?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[TomAiello 26]

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Do you value time with your children?

Do you value your wife? What would you pay her to love you?

The question really is:

Do I value time spent with my wife? The answer is yes. The next question is: how much?

Well, if I can spend the next hour with my wife, or you'll pay me $10 million to do something else for the next hour, I'm going to take the 10 million. Does that mean I don't love my wife? I don't think so. It means that I have made a decision about value, and decided that spending an hour making ten million dollars will give me greater future happiness than spending that hour with my wife. In fact, I can do lots of wonderful things with my wife, using that 10 million dollars, so I think I've gotten a pretty good deal.

In reality, most people make decisions somewhere between those extremes, selling their time to their employers at rates quite a bit less than 10 million dollars an hour. Does that mean they don't love their families? No, of course not. It means that they have decided they can do better things for their families, and enjoy their lives (with their families) more if they sell off some of their time in order to have more money to add other things to their lives (for themselves or their families).

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[rehmwa 2]

You guys are so desparate to find something to pose about and make yourself feel superior to 'anyone' else, you don't even read the topics anymore. Just trite and shallow comment after trite and shallow comment. I suppose next you're going to go find someone to call a bigot or something over a comment about eating meat or testing makeup or something....

what a total waste of time, absolutely valueless

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TomAiello 26]

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Do you value time with your children?

Do you value your wife? What would you pay her to love you?

@TomAiello:

Clearly, by your standards, if you have a job outside the home, your family has a finite monetary value to you. For what price would you sell them?

Not at all. But my time, at an hourly rate, can be sold, by me, in order to provide other things, such as time with my family.

Everyone makes trade offs. People who proclaim that this or that thing they value is worth "more than anything" often do not behave in a manner that displays such a valuation.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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So, someone who works two full time jobs in order to make ends meet and to try to provide a better life for his kids than he had doesn't value his family as much as someone who doesn't have the drive to keep a job and relies on charity to provide food and clothing for his kids because he'd rather stay home and watch Springer?

No, that's not what I said at all.

If I value my family, I'm likely to sell some of my time in order to provide things for them (such as family time).

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jakee 1,595]

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Do I value time spent with my wife? The answer is yes. The next question is: how much?

Well, if I can spend the next hour with my wife, or you'll pay me $10 million to do something else for the next hour, I'm going to take the 10 million. Does that mean I don't love my wife? I don't think so. It means that I have made a decision about value, and decided that spending an hour making ten million dollars will give me greater future happiness than spending that hour with my wife. In fact, I can do lots of wonderful things with my wife, using that 10 million dollars, so I think I've gotten a pretty good deal.

That's not what I asked, and I do not accept the question you substitute. However, going by your system, what monetary value do you put on the time spent with your wife? How much would I have to pay you to leave her for an hour? How much would I have to pay you per hour to leave her forever?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

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No, that's not what I said at all.

It isn't what you said. It is an implication of what you said.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jakee 1,595]

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You guys are so desparate to find something to pose about and make yourself feel superior to 'anyone' else, you don't even read the topics anymore. Just trite and shallow comment after trite and shallow comment. I suppose next you're going to go find someone to call a bigot or something over a comment about eating meat or testing makeup or something....

what a total waste of time, absolutely valueless

So says the man who feels compelled to spend his time calling other people desperate, trite and shallow (among many other things) simply because he's not interested in the philosophical position they're discussing.

How's that high horse working out for you Rehmie? I can fetch you a step ladder if you need help getting down...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

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Do you value time with your children?

Do you value your wife? What would you pay her to love you?

@TomAiello:

Clearly, by your standards, if you have a job outside the home, your family has a finite monetary value to you. For what price would you sell them?

Not at all. But my time, at an hourly rate, can be sold, by me, in order to provide other things, such as time with my family.

Okay, for what price would you turn your back on your family forever, never to see or communicate with them again?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[TomAiello 26]

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However, going by your system, what monetary value do you put on the time spent with your wife? How much would I have to pay you to leave her for an hour? How much would I have to pay you per hour to leave her forever?

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Okay, for what price would you turn your back on your family forever, never to see or communicate with them again?

I'm going to try to take the two very similar questions at once.

First, you need to understand a concept called Marginal Utility.

Here's how it works: Each additional unit of something you gain is worth slightly less than the last unit you had of it.

So, for (greatly simplified) example, if you have no bread, you may value a loaf of bread at $5. But if you have one load already, it's unlikely you're going to value the second load at $5 (although it's possible, if you're really hungry, that you'll assign it exactly the same value). But what if you have 100 loaves of bread? The next one isn't worth much to you, because you're already pretty stuffed with bread.

Another example, that might be easier to follow for us here, is the value of a skydive. The first skydive of the day, you're very excited about jumping, the $20 or so for the jump is easy to part with. But by the end of the day, you've got 12 jumps in, and that 13th jump isn't looking all that appealing to most folks. Even more pronounced is the difference between your 11th jump overall, very early off student status, and your 11,000th.

Now turn this around to talk about family time. If you haven't seen your family for a month, that first hour is pretty darn valuable. But if you've just spent a month straight on vacation with them, you're probably willing to sell an hour of your time to your employer for a reasonable sum.

Follow this out to infinity and you get a pretty big value at either end. If you are talking about giving up one hour today with your family, that's not too large. But if you're talking about giving up all the hours, forever, you're likely to approach a sum that is worth more than every material thing in the world.

So, to answer the question about my specific case:

When I'm working, I'll typically make somewhere around 50 bucks per hour. So, we can say that at my current work/family balance, it costs about 50 bucks per hour to get me away from my family. If I had a lot less family time, then it would go up. If I had a lot more (which would be pretty hard, actually, since most of my time is family time) then it might go down a bit. In my specific case, since I am turning down work with regularity, we can say that I've probably hit the balance point. I won't take more work at my current rate, which means that I probably value my time with my family at about 50 bucks an hour. Give me more family time, I might work or less. Give me less family time, you're going to have to pay me more. Odds are that, right now today, if you walked into my house and offered me a hundred bucks an hour to help you move your refrigerator, I'd take the hundred bucks and leave my family for an hour. Offer me twenty bucks, and I probably won't take the cash (although I bet I'd help you move the fridge just because you asked).

Remember that the rate goes up or down depending on how much I have, so to answer that second question, I'd have to say "a lot," because I've never been in the situation of pricing the first hour of family time. I'm not sure how much "a lot" is, but I can say for sure that it would at least have to be enough to set my family up with everything they'd ever need in life, and then some.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jerryzflies 0]

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You guys are so desparate to find something to pose about and make yourself feel superior to 'anyone' else, you don't even read the topics anymore. Just trite and shallow comment after trite and shallow comment. I suppose next you're going to go find someone to call a bigot or something over a comment about eating meat or testing makeup or something....

what a total waste of time, absolutely valueless

Why do you read valueless threads?

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[jcd11235 0]

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First, you need to understand a concept called Marginal Utility.

Here's how it works: Each additional unit of something you gain is worth slightly less than the last unit you had of it.

Thanks for the microeconomics review. I'll play along.

So, at what rate does the monetary value of each hour with your family decrease from the previous hour? (If you don't feel a constant rate is sufficient, feel free to define a function.)

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 3,118]

>1) If the government simply put out contracts for the data, that would
>create a demand that could be filled by private industry.

It might; that was the financing plan for the Mars Direct concept.

However, the free market model breaks down when there is only one possible customer for a product, there are multiple possible suppliers, and the failure to receive payment for a failed attempt will destroy the company due to the costs involved. Imagine the sales pitch at Boeing:

"The government is offering us $250 billion dollars for a manned mission to Mars that will return X data. It will cost us around $180 billion to pull it off. If Arianespace gets there first and we don't get paid, we will lose the company."

Not a great risk for a big business who could put that $180 billion into new aircraft that other companies will buy two, ten or thirty of at a time.

> I'd bet that the reason we don't see too much private space exploration
>going on is because the private companies can't compete with a totally
>subsidized (government) competitor . . .

I think the reason is that you can't make any money at it. (Other than tourism, which at least two companies are currently working on.) However, "not able to make money on it" does not equal "worthless."

>who, just to make things more difficult, has a 100% lock on all contracts.

?? They don't. The US uses several launch companies (NASA, Arianespace, even the Russian Space Agency) to launch their hardware.

> If the information isn't worth that much money, why are we buying it
>again?

Because some things that have a societal rather than an individual benefit don't work as well under the capitalist free-enterprise system. For example, discovering life on a planet other than Earth has almost zero short and mid term monetary value, but has an enormous potential value to mankind in general.

That's one reason our governmental system works pretty well (which is to say, it's not perfect, but better than the alternatives.) We don't rely on pure democracy to decide things, and we don't rely on the market for 100% of what we want as a people. We often elect people who in turn appoint experts to make decisions on such longer-term potentials.

[TomAiello 26]

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So, at what rate does the monetary value of each hour with your family decrease from the previous hour? (If you don't feel a constant rate is sufficient, feel free to define a function.)

It's going to be different for every person. The best way to sort this out is to spend time with your family, and then realize the point at which you want to get out and do something else. For some people, that will be after only a few hours. For others, it might be after spending weeks together on vacation.

The shape of your personal demand curve (for anything) is going to be pretty complex and idiosyncratic. No one can define that function for you, aside from you.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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For example, discovering life on a planet other than Earth has almost zero short and mid term monetary value, but has an enormous potential value to mankind in general.

Specifically, what value do you see? I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here, but can you see that knowledge feeding the starving, curing diseases, bringing world peace?

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We often elect people who in turn appoint experts to make decisions on such longer-term potentials.

Yes, and we often disagree about the people and their experts, and even the decisions the experts make. And someone (more likely lots of someones) feels left out, disenfranchised, and often taken advantage of. Wouldn't it be more in keeping with human dignity if we allowed each person to make those value decisions for themselves?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jcd11235 0]

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So, at what rate does the monetary value of each hour with your family decrease from the previous hour? (If you don't feel a constant rate is sufficient, feel free to define a function.)

It's going to be different for every person. … The shape of your personal demand curve (for anything) is going to be pretty complex and idiosyncratic. No one can define that function for you, aside from you.

Right, that's why I asked you about yours, rather than the demand of someone else.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!