Channman 2 #26 April 23, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Still not enough, the rate should be at minimum 70% of every pound earned to meet the growing needs of the people. Also the rate should apply to those who earn 50,000/year or more. By effectively capping earnings at £50kpa you stifle entrepreneurial spirit. Why take on extra risks and responsibilities when your earnings will never reflect the extra work? You've just created a nation where mediocre is the pinnacle of the career ladder. So instead, how about the people stop increasing their needs? Lets not have breast enhancement on the NHS. No IVF treatment on the NHS. No right to council housing for life. Stop handouts to illegal immigrants. etc etc. All I'm trying to do is spread the wealth around. Its hardly fair that these very successful individuals who have taken every oppertunity to improve their lives financially have a better standard of living then any one else. Everyone should have a equal share so to speak. Quote Why should you get part of what someone else has earned? you didn't work for it, someone else did. what makes you so special that you should have part of someone elses hard work? not trying to be mean here just trying to understand your thinking. Well, I was just trying out the new era of Obama, Something for Nothing. I was looking at this issue from the eyes of a liberal. So I decided that for one day I would try and see what life would be like if I set around today with my hand out. I really don't understand your greed, (speaking as a liberal for one day only) that you would not see the need and helping your fellow man/women out financially. Should not your hard earned wage be taken from you and given to me because I might have a need of: Child Care, so I can go to work or not After school programs so I can have some time to myself Car expenses, so I can go to work or not Monthly assistance in paying Toll charges Free health care, but you need to pay Precription drugs Food Stamps Mortgage/Rent payments 4 year college education payed of course by you Oh, I also need a phone Computer These are just a few examples in how your hard work and your personal income can benefit me and my family. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #27 April 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteI'm curious how a couple of criminals defrauding the government by taking advantage of loopholes in government payment schemes says anything about efficiency in the private sector? There are none so blind as those who will not see. I guess I'm still curious. Can you please explain, in plain english, your meaning? Thanks.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #28 April 23, 2009 QuoteThere are none so blind as those who will not see. sure, except for the blind of course what has 3 legs, 3 hands and 3 eyes ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #29 April 23, 2009 Quote Quote There are none so blind as those who will not see. sure, except for the blind of course what has 3 legs, 3 hands and 3 eyes Peggy Bundy Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #30 April 23, 2009 ok.... Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #31 April 23, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm curious how a couple of criminals defrauding the government by taking advantage of loopholes in government payment schemes says anything about efficiency in the private sector? There are none so blind as those who will not see. I guess I'm still curious. Can you please explain, in plain english, your meaning? Thanks. In plain English, two washers could have been shipped from South Carolina to Texas by the government, via USPS, or even personal courier, for far less than $1 million.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #32 April 24, 2009 QuoteIn plain English, two washers could have been shipped from South Carolina to Texas by the government, via USPS, or even personal courier, for far less than $1 million. Oh, ok, thanks. I had thought you were trying to say something about relative efficiency in the private and public sectors, and somehow relating a huge fraud perpetrated upon a public sector procurer to an argument that this somehow made the public sector more efficient. Thanks for clearing that up.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #33 April 24, 2009 QuoteI had thought you were trying to say something about relative efficiency in the private and public sectors, and somehow relating a huge fraud perpetrated upon a public sector procurer to an argument that this somehow made the public sector more efficient. I was just pointing out that private industry is not always more efficient than government. Anyone who thinks it is is kidding themselves. There is nothing inherent in private industry or government to make either one the most efficient in all cases.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #34 April 24, 2009 riiiiiiiiiiiiiight... since the bureaucratic process is so efficient.So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #35 April 24, 2009 Quote riiiiiiiiiiiiiight... since the bureaucratic process is so efficient. I guarantee you cannot find a counter-example where a private corporation paid out millions of dollars on fraudulent shipping charges and then caught the perpetrators. Clearly, people perpetrate shipping fraud of this magnitude on private parties all the time, and the private parties never catch them. Ergo, government procurement processes are more efficient than private ones! -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #36 April 24, 2009 >since the bureaucratic process is so efficient. Well, it got us atomic power, the atom bomb, the space shuttle, manned lunar missions, the national highway system, air traffic control, communications satellites, the World War II industrial effort and the internet, so it can indeed be innovative, efficient and cost effective. Like any private company, it depends on the people involved. Private companies can be horribly mismanaged and can cost hundreds of thousands of people lots of money. Government organizations can be filled with bureacratic dead-enders who do nothing but sit on their ass all day. Neither example means that both are always better or worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #37 April 24, 2009 Quote I guarantee you cannot find a counter-example … I think you missed the point of my post. Or, perhaps you're simply ignoring it. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #38 April 24, 2009 bill i never said it didnt work, and in many of those cases they actually brought in private enterprise. Lots of things work and get results- hell my broken watch is even right twice per day! Just saying, when you hear the term 'red tape,' you don't think 'wall street' the problem with wall street is since only the bad guys get the media attention, everyone now thinks scumbag.So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #39 April 24, 2009 > Just saying, when you hear the term 'red tape,' you don't think 'wall street' Right. When you hear "wall street" you think "insider trading." Both sides have their problems. >the problem with wall street is since only the bad guys get the media attention, >everyone now thinks scumbag. I agree 100%. And the same applies for the government. You don't hear about all the lives saved by the CDC, all the air crashes avoided by ATC or all the goods moved by the highway system. You just hear about the spectacular bungles. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #40 April 24, 2009 Ha ha, very true... as i said it has it's successes, just tends to take a while. Like the normal BS at the DMV or post office. I actually work with government agencies frequently given the region I cover in sales- and let me tell ya, it AIN'T like working with the corporate market.The reason the private sector is better (generally, and yes, my opinion) is that it ISN'T run by a bunch of lawyers, though that seems to be changing with regulation after regulation. With the gov't, no one is allowed to think/act on their own... it's a preset approval process with their interest in mind only (whatever it may be) or nothing. So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #41 April 24, 2009 QuoteLike the normal BS at the DMV or post office. Most people in SC seem to be satisfied with the efficiency of their local DMV. Personally, it's been a few years since I've had to wait unnecessarily at the DMV. Usually I'm in and out pretty quickly, in the event I can't take care of things online. I've got no complaints with my local Post Office (or USPS in general) either. I wish every private organization I deal with worked as efficiently as those two government agencies, but the fact of the matter is that they are often far less efficient.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #42 April 25, 2009 >The reason the private sector is better (generally, and yes, my opinion) >is that it ISN'T run by a bunch of lawyers . . . And the reason that the public sector is better at some things is that it isn't run by a bunch of capitalists whose first, second, third and fourth priority is to make as much money as they can before they quit. Sometimes that works; if you're making pet rocks or comic books, then profit can be a great driving force. Sometimes it doesn't. If your charter is to protect public health, or design a spacecraft that can make it to the moon and back, profit is a poor motivator. >With the gov't, no one is allowed to think/act on their own... ?? You really believe that? If so I suspect you've never worked with NASA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDashe 0 #43 April 25, 2009 yup, I do. When it comes to the majority of government employees, they're all button pushers trying to make it 20 years to get their pension. All they have to do is just enough not to get fired, and sadly the minimum is what a large enough portion do to gum up the system enough to make it less efficient than the private sector, which is what we lovingly pay our tax dollars for. There are outliers in every aspect of life. examples of outliers are evil execs that get all the public attention, and the few good politicians that are clean and actually trying to make a difference who get no attention. In fact, read the book "Outliers" You'll understand the reality of successful people much better...So there I was... Making friends and playing nice since 1983 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #44 April 25, 2009 Quote When it comes to the majority of government employees, they're all button pushers trying to make it 20 years to get their pension. Yeah, teachers, soldiers, firefighters, etc., they're all just "button pushers trying to make it 20 years to get their pension." Your post indicates a distorted view of government employees. Quote All they have to do is just enough not to get fired, and sadly the minimum is what a large enough portion do to gum up the system enough to make it less efficient … That's a common problem in the private sector, whether it occurs in the public sector or not. Neither the private sector nor the public sector is inherently more efficient than the other. Quote In fact, read the book "Outliers" You'll understand the reality of successful people much better... … Or at least be able to parrot the author's opinions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #45 April 25, 2009 QuoteSometimes it doesn't. If your charter is to protect public health, or design a spacecraft that can make it to the moon and back, profit is a poor motivator. Can you explain why you think this? Profit is a good motivator for many things. I bet that if profit was an incentive, we'd have a much cheaper, faster moving space program. I've also seen the inside of the US healthcare system enough to know that it is largely a government run monopoly, with a huge government program basically setting all the rules that everyone else must play by. Pointing to it as a failure of the market system is like pointing to Stalinism as a failure of democracy.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #46 April 25, 2009 QuoteI've also seen the inside of the US healthcare system enough to know that it is largely a government run monopoly, with a huge government program basically setting all the rules that everyone else must play by. Pointing to it as a failure of the market system is like pointing to Stalinism as a failure of democracy. LMAO. When reality doesn't match libertarian ideology, just redefine the terms of reality! There are countries that actually have government run healthcare (many of which offer better care for lower cost than is available in the US). The US is not one of them. As an example of efficiency of private versus public in the healthcare industry, Medicare is far more efficient than the private insurance sector. Private, for profit hospitals have higher admin costs (as a percentage of costs) than non profit and public hospitals.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #47 April 25, 2009 QuoteQuoteLike the normal BS at the DMV or post office. Most people in SC seem to be satisfied with the efficiency of their local DMV. Personally, it's been a few years since I've had to wait unnecessarily at the DMV. Usually I'm in and out pretty quickly, in the event I can't take care of things online. I've got no complaints with my local Post Office (or USPS in general) either. I wish every private organization I deal with worked as efficiently as those two government agencies, but the fact of the matter is that they are often far less efficient. I suspect the passenger who recently landed the King Air after the pilot died was quite pleased with the performance of the FAA employees who helped him get it down safely. I can't say that I've noticed any significant differences in attitude between government agencies and private companies in my interactions with them.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #48 April 25, 2009 >yup, I do. Then like I said, you don't know too many government employees. > All they have to do is just enough not to get fired . . . Yep. There are people like that in the private world as well. I've worked with a lot of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #49 April 25, 2009 >Profit is a good motivator for many things. I bet that if profit was an >incentive, we'd have a much cheaper, faster moving space program. We've had private space transportation companies for about 15 years now. None of the non-subsidized ones have worked out. The private model might someday work for LEO and GEO launch vehicles if they get a lot of help. It's an inherently very high risk, low reward industry, and "the cheapest rocket wins" results in a lot of cheap launchers that don't work. Thus, so far, the most successful launch company out there has been Arianespace, a company that is heavily subsidized by the French government. Beyond that, though, there is simply no financial incentive for things like the Hubble Telescope, the Apollo missions, the Spirit/Opportunity rovers and future exploratory missions. No one will pay billions for the data such missions send back, and thus going to a private model effectively ends such exploration. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,596 #50 April 25, 2009 QuoteBeyond that, though, there is simply no financial incentive for things like the Hubble Telescope, the Apollo missions, the Spirit/Opportunity rovers and future exploratory missions. No one will pay billions for the data such missions send back, and thus going to a private model effectively ends such exploration. Yeah, that's what I thought... Tom, do you see a return on investment in space exploration just magically appearing if the government gets out of the way, or do you think that it is right and proper that such non-commercial things should be sacrificed as unworthy of investment?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
