Of course we will need to call it something different than what it was called when the Bush Admin ran it

[rushmc 23]

Cant say you Obama supporters were not told!!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/13/obama-administration-upholds-terrorist-surveillance-secrecy-rules/

President Obama's most liberal supporters say they are dismayed and disgusted because this administration is invoking the "state secrets" privilege -- just as former President George W. Bush did -- to shield eavesdropping programs from public exposure.

"I wasn't happy when George Bush asserted that he could do these things and I'm not happy that President Obama is now agreeing with George Bush," said Jane Hamsher of Accountability Now.

"Other than being flat wrong, the Obama administration's position is seriously disappointing to those Americans who listened to candidate Obama's promises of a new era of government accountability and transparency, said Kevin Bankston, senior attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

EFF sued the government claiming that AT&T and perhaps other telecommunications companies cooperated with it to allow access to people's phone and Internet records -- a so-called dragnet in a search for terrorist communications.

Obama criticized the cooperation during the campaign, calling it an abuse of authority and arguing that the Bush administration "undermined the Constitution."

Now, the Obama administration is trying to have that same lawsuit dismissed.

"For the Obama administration now to try to have our lawsuit dismissed based on the exact same state secrecy arguments is quite a turnaround and very disappointing," Bankston said.

Top Obama officials, including Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair, dispute the assertions claimed in the suit.

"Admiral Blair in two separate affidavits sworn under penalty of perjury has flatly said that the allegations of dragnet NSA surveillance are quote 'false' close quote," said Bryan Cunningham, a former CIA and Justice Department attorney.

After a full review, Attorney General Eric Holder and the administration has asked the case be dismissed, arguing that hearing it would cause "extremely grave harm to national security. "

"The Obama administration is making a very spirited, a very robust assertion of state secrets privilege just like the Bush administration did before it," said former Justice Department attorney Dave Rivkin.

"You would think that if the critics were sincere in the past but had real problems with the Bush administration they might take some note of this but no they are really not interested. They are just as disinclined to trust the Obama administration's officials when it comes to balancing individual liberty and public safety as they were with regard to .... officials of the Bush administration," he said.

"This is the attorney general and the director of national intelligence that were strongly supported by the left wing of the Democratic Party and I don't know what critics think happened," Cunningham said. "I don't know if they think Admiral Blair and Attorney General Holder got sent into the Dick Cheney mind meld machine or what."

Instead of the mind meld, analysts say Obama's eyes were opened as he learned more about the program and now realizes it is both lawful and necessary. But critics don't accept that. They think they've been betrayed by the man they expected to reverse almost every policy of the Bush years, especially this one.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

You are right billvon!

Is has been a great day!!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[BDashe 0]

I figured a few things like this may get flipped once he took office. It is very easy to criticize from the outside. Suddenly you're responsible for the USA and need to maintain domestic security, and probably his own ass from death threats and such.

weird how that works, when youre on the inside and know shit others dont/cant. I am not surprised in the least, the asshole is a politician after all- shaking babies and kissing hands. Go figure the second coming is actually human and a politician. Who woulda thunk it? though maybe since there is controversy over where he was born, that just maybe he was immaculately conceived...

personally i never had a problem with this as I have nothing to hide, i understand the slippery slope effect, but fuck it, i doubt they're after any of us for our public intoxication conversations...

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[lawrocket 3]

I agree with you, except I find nothing wrong with this. I think it's pretty damned normal to say, "you're doing it wrong" only to change your mind when you've gotta do it yourself.

I could imagine being elected POTUS and a month later holding a press conference "To President Snuffy - ma'am I owe you an apology. This job is a lot harder than I thought. And to my supporters who agreed with me on the campaign trail, I think we all deserve a big Kinison-like 'FUUUUCCCCKKKK YYYYOOOOUUUU' from our former President. I didn't know shit, though I thought I did. Folks - you don't know shit, though you think you do."

I think ALL presidents deserve it - yes, even Carter.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I agree with you, except I find nothing wrong with this. I think it's pretty damned normal to say, "you're doing it wrong" only to change your mind when you've gotta do it yourself.

I could imagine being elected POTUS and a month later holding a press conference "To President Snuffy - ma'am I owe you an apology. This job is a lot harder than I thought. And to my supporters who agreed with me on the campaign trail, I think we all deserve a big Kinison-like 'FUUUUCCCCKKKK YYYYOOOOUUUU' from our former President. I didn't know shit, though I thought I did. Folks - you don't know shit, though you think you do."

I think ALL presidents deserve it - yes, even Carter.

I don't mind going after our enemies in any way we possibly can.... BUT with the oversite based on our LAWS... Why is it so hard for those who SHOULD know better to follow our laws???

[quade 4]

My guess is that while there is a huge piece of crap here in the AT&T mess, there probably is, buried somewhere deep, down in the crap a nugget that does have the possibility of revealing something.

Does that make the original issue "OK"? I don't think so. I think if Obama had a choice in the matter he probably wouldn't do it the same way. That said, he was served up a turd sandwich and now has to eat it because there's something deep down inside that really does screw things up if he reveals it.

In other words, he's screwed no matter what.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

Quote

My guess is that while there is a huge piece of crap here in the AT&T mess, there probably is, buried somewhere deep, down in the crap a nugget that does have the possibility of revealing something.

Does that make the original issue "OK"? I don't think so. I think if Obama had a choice in the matter he probably wouldn't do it the same way. That said, he was served up a turd sandwich and now has to eat it because there's something deep down inside that really does screw things up if he reveals it.

In other words, he's screwed no matter what.

Personally I would opt for breaking it wide open.....and prosecute those who made the turd sandwich in the very open World Court.

[quade 4]

Quote

Personally I would opt for breaking it wide open.....and prosecute those who made the turd sandwich in the very open World Court.

I tend to agree. I like to think that we're smart enough at doing these sorts of things that even IF we lost a couple sources and methods, they are already obsolete anyway.

I'd LOVE to hold a few members of the 43rd Administration up to a world court and make an example for future Administrations to be wary of.

That said, I really don't know how far it would go. I'm guessing few do.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[shropshire 0]

Now that he knows the truth, he knows that you can't handle it.

Naive cancandidate turns into realist - surprise

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rushmc 23]

Quote

My guess is that while there is a huge piece of crap here in the AT&T mess, there probably is, buried somewhere deep, down in the crap a nugget that does have the possibility of revealing something.

Does that make the original issue "OK"? I don't think so. I think if Obama had a choice in the matter he probably wouldn't do it the same way. That said, he was served up a turd sandwich and now has to eat it because there's something deep down inside that really does screw things up if he reveals it.

In other words, he's screwed no matter what.

Excuses work for those whom you support. I understand that now.

I love the consistancy

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[airdvr 210]

Jeanne...does this make you guys goat fuck stupid too?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[marks2065 0]

Quote

You are right billvon!

Is has been a great day!!!

Quote

there are some things that need to be kept secret and need to be monitored by the government. To bad alot of the people that voted for Obama can't seem to understand that the defense of this country is more important. I am glad that Obama understands this now but it is too late and shows another promise broken. but then again the more promises he brakes the better it is for us as a country.

[BDashe 0]

Quote

My guess is that while there is a huge piece of crap here in the AT&T mess, there probably is, buried somewhere deep, down in the crap a nugget that does have the possibility of revealing something.

Does that make the original issue "OK"? I don't think so. I think if Obama had a choice in the matter he probably wouldn't do it the same way. That said, he was served up a turd sandwich and now has to eat it because there's something deep down inside that really does screw things up if he reveals it.

In other words, he's screwed no matter what.

plus from other post:

"I'd LOVE to hold a few members of the 43rd Administration up to a world court and make an example for future Administrations to be wary of."

Umm...sooo...it's Bush's fault obama changed his mind on wire tapping? Or am I reading this wrong?

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

My guess is that while there is a huge piece of crap here in the AT&T mess, there probably is, buried somewhere deep, down in the crap a nugget that does have the possibility of revealing something.

Does that make the original issue "OK"? I don't think so. I think if Obama had a choice in the matter he probably wouldn't do it the same way. That said, he was served up a turd sandwich and now has to eat it because there's something deep down inside that really does screw things up if he reveals it.

In other words, he's screwed no matter what.

plus from other post:

"I'd LOVE to hold a few members of the 43rd Administration up to a world court and make an example for future Administrations to be wary of."

Umm...sooo...it's Bush's fault obama changed his mind on wire tapping? Or am I reading this wrong?

It's BDIF now hinged from CDIF previously

and of course Clinton got a blow job

for some people, the Big O cannot do wrong

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Jeanne...does this make you guys goat fuck stupid too?

Interesting that you FINALLY realize how GOAT FUCK STUPID you guys were... well done.

[billvon 3,107]

Both of you cut it out.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

You are right billvon!

Is has been a great day!!!

Quote

there are some things that need to be kept secret and need to be monitored by the government. To bad alot of the people that voted for Obama can't seem to understand that the defense of this country is more important. I am glad that Obama understands this now but it is too late and shows another promise broken. but then again the more promises he brakes the better it is for us as a country.

I too think he is doing the right thing. My point is under Bush this is an impeachable offense. Under Obama it is cleaning up the mess

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[riddler 0]

Quote

for some people, the Big O cannot do wrong

About the only thing that right-wingers are more guilty of than rank-and-file politics and snap judgements is labelling everyone that disagrees with them. Government eavsedropping is illegal, it was when Bush did it, and it still is. We'll have to see what the real story is, as it emerges, but Obama gets no excuses from me if he supports it.

OTOH, I didn't vote for him to stop wire-tapping. I voted for other reasons, and I'm willing to give him time to do them. I'm definitely not going to judge him based on a breaking story - let's hear what he himself has to say about it.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

for some people, the Big O cannot do wrong

About the only thing that right-wingers are more guilty of than rank-and-file politics and snap judgements is labelling everyone that disagrees with them. Government eavsedropping is illegal, it was when Bush did it, and it still is. We'll have to see what the real story is, as it emerges, but Obama gets no excuses from me if he supports it.

OTOH, I didn't vote for him to stop wire-tapping. I voted for other reasons, and I'm willing to give him time to do them. I'm definitely not going to judge him based on a breaking story - let's hear what he himself has to say about it.

I fully support the wire tapping and would have under the Bush Regime..had they followed the laws such as getting warrents for the wire taps from the FISA Court... NO ONE should think they are above our laws.. no matter HOW much the right wing believes that the constitution no longer applies because we are at war

[riddler 0]

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warrents for the wire taps from the FISA Court

I agree with you that the government needs to abide by the laws, and I believe that's all that Obama promised in his campaign.

I disagree with the FISA court - more like a Kangaroo Court:

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Through the end of 2004, 18,761 warrants were granted, while just five were rejected (many sources say four).

It's obvious that system doesn't work - if there were really 18,757 good reasons for the wiretaps, there should be a few thousand terrorists behind bars right now, correct?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

warrents for the wire taps from the FISA Court

I agree with you that the government needs to abide by the laws, and I believe that's all that Obama promised in his campaign.

I disagree with the FISA court - more like a Kangaroo Court:

Quote

Through the end of 2004, 18,761 warrants were granted, while just five were rejected (many sources say four).

It's obvious that system doesn't work - if there were really 18,757 good reasons for the wiretaps, there should be a few thousand terrorists behind bars right now, correct?

Well at least that way there is SOME oversite... and they have to answer to a judge... and they can determine if there is malfeasance... and prosecute them if needed. At least its specific.....not everyone being recorded 24/7 in the Right Wing Big Brother State.

[riddler 0]

Quote

Well at least that way there is SOME oversite... and they have to answer to a judge... and they can determine if there is malfeasance... and prosecute them if needed. At least its specific.....not everyone being recorded 24/7 in the Right Wing Big Brother State.

My guess is that the Obama administration wants to skirt the courts for the same reason that Bush did. With that kind of track record, it's just a formality, a rubber-stamp. The problem is that it takes too much time - if you ask for a wiretap, you're going to get it, but by the time the court approves it, you're opportunity to eavesdrop is gone.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[lawrocket 3]

Do you ever get the feeling that it doesn't matter who is in power? The same thing will happen. Those who derided the POTUS from the opposite party will excuse their boy/girl? And vice versa?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[shropshire 0]

Quote

Do you ever get the feeling that it doesn't matter who is in power? The same thing will happen. Those who derided the POTUS from the opposite party will excuse their boy/girl? And vice versa?

I wonder if it goes deeper than that....... [conspiracy warning] Is the President and his party the real/only seat of power in the land? One man and his band can't possibly know everything that is going on in a country or make ALL of the decisions to run a it, can they?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rushmc 23]

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Do you ever get the feeling that it doesn't matter who is in power? The same thing will happen. Those who derided the POTUS from the opposite party will excuse their boy/girl? And vice versa?

And you have nailed the point of the thread!

You are dead on.

This is as predicted, it was happening before Bush and it will happen after Obama.

The only difference? How loud the left whines and whimpers and how it is reported in the media. Period

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln