billvon 3,090 #26 April 14, 2009 >I provided the counter study to that assertion. It's quite clear on the conclusion . . . . . . in two cities. The studies I cited were for the US in general. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #27 April 14, 2009 Quote>I provided the counter study to that assertion. It's quite clear on the conclusion . . . . . . in two cities. The studies I cited were for the US in general. And to repeat, did not appear to speak to the question of substitution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #28 April 14, 2009 Quote In the context of a show about accidental gun fatalities and gun crime, suicides are not part of the equation. To include suicide statistics in a show about accidents and crime is a lie. It's like including hang gliding fatalities in a show about skydiving safety. In our highly literal discussions, it is not a lie. But it is misleading, definitely intellectually dishonest. The Kellerman fraud was the most outrageous use of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #29 April 14, 2009 QuoteQuote In the context of a show about accidental gun fatalities and gun crime, suicides are not part of the equation. To include suicide statistics in a show about accidents and crime is a lie. It's like including hang gliding fatalities in a show about skydiving safety. In our highly literal discussions, it is not a lie. True Quote But it is misleading, definitely intellectually dishonest. The Kellerman fraud was the most outrageous use of it. Claiming that 30000 gun deaths a year is a lie is also misleading, definitely intellectually dishonest.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #30 April 14, 2009 Quote Claiming that 30000 gun deaths a year is a lie is also misleading, definitely intellectually dishonest. In that you are wrong, since he immediately clarifies why he felt it was a lie. You can only quibble that it wasn't technically false, so instead of a "lie" it was really merely a mistruth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #31 April 15, 2009 QuoteABC is contributing to making the public ignorant by feeding them lies in disguise as facts. It is not ABC's fault that the american public swallows what they are fed on TV as gospel. ABC's job is to make money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #32 April 15, 2009 QuoteQuote Claiming that 30000 gun deaths a year is a lie is also misleading, definitely intellectually dishonest. In that you are wrong, since he immediately clarifies why he felt it was a lie. You can only quibble that it wasn't technically false, so instead of a "lie" it was really merely a mistruth. "MISTRUTH" - the new euphemism for "LIE", brought to you by the gun owners of DZ.COM. The average annual number of gun deaths in the USA during this decade IS over 30,000. That is a fact, and denying it is a lie.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #33 April 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote Claiming that 30000 gun deaths a year is a lie is also misleading, definitely intellectually dishonest. In that you are wrong, since he immediately clarifies why he felt it was a lie. You can only quibble that it wasn't technically false, so instead of a "lie" it was really merely a mistruth. "MISTRUTH" - the new euphemism for "LIE", brought to you by the gun owners of DZ.COM. The average annual number of gun deaths in the USA during this decade IS over 30,000. That is a fact, and denying it is a lie. Want to dig thru your "statistics" and glean the number of gang bangers in da hood or de barrio who offed each other depending on their "colors" with stolen and illegal weapons? That should leave a sizable difference in your "statistics" where legal gun owners did nothing with their guns at all except to have them on hand should one of the aformentioned spuzzbuckets decided to take on someone who actually has their weapons to protect themselves or their homes from said spuzzbuckets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #34 April 15, 2009 >"MISTRUTH" - the new euphemism for "LIE" I prefer "truthiness." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #35 April 15, 2009 Quote The average annual number of gun deaths in the USA during this decade IS over 30,000. That is a fact, and denying it is a lie. and if you make that claim without qualification, you're are definitely engaging in truthiness. Remove the people who want to die, and the people that deserve to die (felons), and that number is quite different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #36 April 15, 2009 QuoteQuote The average annual number of gun deaths in the USA during this decade IS over 30,000. That is a fact, and denying it is a lie. and if you make that claim without qualification, you're are definitely engaging in truthiness. Remove the people who want to die, and the people that deserve to die (felons), and that number is quite different. How, exactly, is it truthiness to give the total without qualifications, when the total includes all gun deaths? It would only need to be qualified if certain gun deaths were left out, which doesn't appear to be the case. (Note that I don't know how accurate the 30,000 figure is.)Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 April 15, 2009 Because with the exception of Bill and some gun control advocates, everyone else accepts that suicide by gun is caused by suicide, not by guns. I believe the 30k is a rounding up (26?), and of that more than half are self inflicted. Actual gun use to kill another - which is what should be the point of concern - is in the ballpark of 10,000. About 90% of those are committed by felons and that is also true about the great majority of their victims. Remove both categories and you're down to a figure 1/10th as big. More honest, but not nearly so useful when your objective is control and prohibition. The other common LIE is that 10 children a day are killed by guns. Don't believe I've seen any definition for children that include those that have legally bough alcohol for a few years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #38 April 15, 2009 QuoteQuote The average annual number of gun deaths in the USA during this decade IS over 30,000. That is a fact, and denying it is a lie. and if you make that claim without qualification, you're are definitely engaging in truthiness. Remove the people who want to die, and the people that deserve to die (felons), and that number is quite different. Dead is dead, alive is alive. It's BINARY, no qualification needed.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #39 April 15, 2009 QuoteDead is dead, alive is alive. It's BINARY, no qualification needed. If it were that simple, we ought to ban cars. Look at how many deaths they cause.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #40 April 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteDead is dead, alive is alive. It's BINARY, no qualification needed. If it were that simple, we ought to ban cars. Look at how many deaths they cause. Do try to follow the thread.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #41 April 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteDead is dead, alive is alive. It's BINARY, no qualification needed. If it were that simple, we ought to ban cars. Look at how many deaths they cause. Do try to follow the thread. He's doing a good job of it. Like you said, it's binary. Doesn't matter how they died, just that they did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #42 April 15, 2009 >everyone else accepts that suicide by gun is caused by suicide, not by guns. Dumbest argument of the thread. Hey, if you smoke two packs a day and get lung cancer, it wasn't smoking _or_ cancer that killed you - it was death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #43 April 15, 2009 Quote >everyone else accepts that suicide by gun is caused by suicide, not by guns. Dumbest argument of the thread. Hey, if you smoke two packs a day and get lung cancer, it wasn't smoking _or_ cancer that killed you - it was death. I disagree. My vote is for the quote below... Quote >30,000 Total Gun Deaths - (15,000 Suicides + 600 Justifiable Homicides) = >14,400 Unjustifiable Homicides Suicides are not justifiable either. Suicide by gun is illegal everywhere in the US. www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #44 April 15, 2009 Quote>everyone else accepts that suicide by gun is caused by suicide, not by guns. Dumbest argument of the thread. Hey, if you smoke two packs a day and get lung cancer, it wasn't smoking _or_ cancer that killed you - it was death. What's dumb is believing that guns are the source of suicides. It's the perfect illustration of 'guns don't kill people, people kill people (or in this case, themselves.' Are you still holding to your belief that there is not method substitution? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #45 April 16, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDead is dead, alive is alive. It's BINARY, no qualification needed. If it were that simple, we ought to ban cars. Look at how many deaths they cause. Do try to follow the thread. He's doing a good job of it. Like you said, it's binary. Doesn't matter how they died, just that they did. In the case of the 30,000 under discussion here, I believe they all died of trauma caused by bullets fired from guns,If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #46 April 16, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Dead is dead, alive is alive. It's BINARY, no qualification needed. If it were that simple, we ought to ban cars. Look at how many deaths they cause. Do try to follow the thread. He's doing a good job of it. Like you said, it's binary. Doesn't matter how they died, just that they did. In the case of the 30,000 under discussion here, I believe they all died of trauma caused by bullets fired from guns, Maybe you should outlaw rope, razors, carbon monoxide and other items if you are so concerned. Or are you only concerned with outlawing firearms? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #47 April 16, 2009 Quote I disagree. My vote is for the quote below... My vote is for the whole thread. It started out with a point, and then it quickly degenerated into an argument about the meaning of the word "lie" and then "death" and "suicide." And now the conversation is so convoluted that no one seems to be talking about the same thing, and the folks who are still insisting on proper usage of the words "lie" and "death" are being accused of wanting to ban all guns. There were a couple of things I wanted to reply to, but I figured in this mess I'd just be accused of wanting to put guns in the hands of all criminals and mental patients. Oh well. Typical gun debate, I suppose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #48 April 16, 2009 QuoteMy vote is for ... "death" and "suicide." ... I wanted to ... put guns in the hands of all criminals and mental patients. That's a direct quote! You sick bastard! - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #49 April 16, 2009 QuoteQuoteMy vote is for ... "death" and "suicide." ... I wanted to ... put guns in the hands of all criminals and mental patients. That's a direct quote! You sick bastard! Hey, I may be sick, but I'm not a bastard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #50 April 18, 2009 Quote...trying to demonstrate how useless it is for citizens to try and defend themselves. Armed hero saves 4 lives during home invasion Last week, Demario Brown, on the run from police, held up two women at gunpoint and forced them into the house they were visiting, and then held two additional victims at gunpoint while demanding money he claimed was stolen from him. Then things began to go wrong for Mr. Brown as one of the victims, Timothy King, fought back with his own gun. In the exchange of fire, Mr. Brown was fatally wounded... Source: http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Austin-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d17-Armed-hero-saves-4-lives-during-home-invasion-robbery Dallas woman shoots, kills intruder A 26-year-old woman fatally shot a man who broke into her unit. Two women were inside their apartment when the 55-year-old man knocked on the door about 11 p.m. One of the women called police as the man tried to get inside, and the other woman shot him as he entered... Source: http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090415_wz_fatalbreakin.d8e909e4.html Homeowner Opens Fire On Thieves Deputies said a man reported four men kicked in the door at an apartment. The homeowner grabbed a shotgun and fired at them. All four men fled the scene. Source: http://www.kcra.com/news/19184363/detail.html Woman with gun thwarted drug-addicted thief When Christopher Duhan kicked open the back door of a residence to commit a Monday afternoon burglary, he was met by the lady of the house who chased him off with her handgun... Source: http://seacoastonline.com/articles/20090415-NEWS-904150366 Man Shoots Intruder Police say a man shot and killed another man who broke into his home Friday night. Police say the intruder was able to get into the home and that's when the resident shot him. But first police say he secured family members in a locked bedroom. Source: http://www.wset.com/news/stories/0409/612386.html Pawn shop manager shoots would-be robber Saturday evening, two men walked into the Bayou pawn shop with guns drawn. The manager reportedly grabbed a gun and fired at the men. One of the suspects was hit and the other surrendered. Source: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=6745869 Pharmacist kills armed robber A pharmacist shot an armed robber dead at a drugstore, the Orange County Sheriff's Office said. It was at least the fourth time this year that a robber was killed at a Central Florida business and was the second drugstore holdup that ended in death. Source: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-loc-pharmacy-robber-killed-040109,0,550904.story Pizza shop owner fights back, robber killed 20 year old Patrick Finney came into the pizza shop wearing a ski mask and carrying a shotgun intending to commit armed robbery. John Hayes, owner of the shop, obliged by giving him a stack of $10 bills. Finney wasn't satisfied and pointed his shotgun right at Hayes' head, demanding more money. ''As soon as I gave him the money, I pulled my gun out from my hip, pointed it and fired four shots,'' Hayes said. Finney fell to the floor... This was the fourth robbery of this establishment in the last two years. At this time, police are not planning to press charges against Hayes, who does have a concealed handgun license. Source: http://www.examiner.com/x-2206-Cleveland-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m4d2-Pizza-shop-owner-fights-back-robber-killed Gosh, ABC, how could all these ordinary citizens manage to successfully defend themselves from thugs with firearms? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
