3 Dead Pirates

[Skyrad 0]

***The ongoing war against pirates is the only known example of state vs. nonstate conflict until the advent of the war on terror

This is incorrect. England declared war unpon Napoleon Bonapart (not on the French)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[JohnRich 4]

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I don't believe for one minute that you are niave and genuinly believe that this would drag the US into a war in Somalia...

Somali insurgents fire mortars towards U.S. rep.

MOGADISHU, April 13 (Reuters) - Somali insurgents fired mortars toward U.S. congressman Donald Payne as he left Somalia on Monday after a rare visit by a U.S. politician to the anarchic Horn of Africa nation, police said...http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LD454792.htm

If they kill U.S. Congessmen, would that be grounds for war?

[billvon 3,116]

>now he's authorizing actions that will get us involved in another war in Somalia.

Love the screeching 180's from the conservatives here.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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>now he's authorizing actions that will get us involved in another war in Somalia.

Love the screeching 180's from the conservatives here.

If you point out something is ironic, is it truly irony if the fact that John posted what he did in order to show how ironic the action was?

[christelsabine 1]

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....
You must have missed the part where I said "excellent job".
....

Cop-out.
Your statement clearly was referring to the SEALS' action.
If you need lame excuses like that one, why not.

Skyrads post ....

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"I don't believe for one minute that you are niave and genuinly believe that this would drag the US into a war in Somalia, for a start a war with who??? Pirates? Are you REALLY afraid of the US going to war with Pirates????Pirate (Arggh)

Also I don't believe that you are uninformed and not aware of the current US actions in Somalia against AQ. So I can only conclude that you're just whinging about Obama. There is a sliding scale between being a war monger and a pacifist John. "

.... could sound like a compliment to you - but, only on first view! If only you would stop believing you're smart and trying to fool other posters - THAT makes you look silly.

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If they kill U.S. Congessmen, would that be grounds for war?

Who is "they"? The insurgents?

Whatsoever, the US surely would not take the risk to be the loser for 3rd time in Somalia. Not b/c of a congressman.

No doubt, you have your personal issues with the good looking smart educated slim successful well accepted president of the USA. Sh*t, you'll have to deal with it.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Skyrad 0]

What have Somali insurgents got to do with the Somali Pirates? Nothing. No connection John. Also the US is already monitoring and actioning hits against insurgents in the horn of Africa due to concerns over AQ training camps.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[nerdgirl 0]

For those who might be curious, earlier this morning VADM Bill Gortney, Commander of U.S. Naval Forces Central Command, gave a briefing, “Somali Pirates Briefing,” on the rescue of Maersk - Alabama Captain Richard Phillips, actions being taken w/r/t the detained pirate, and piracy in the Gulf of Aden.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[BDashe 0]

Actually, like ryoder I have been waiting for the good news since last thursday i think it was when the word was out a SEAL team was ready and waiting. Took longer than I expected to get em out there though, and take action, but awesome nonetheless.

I was genuinely worried O was not going to pull the trigger on this one. Very happy he did, though it was a small test, at least he followed through and let our boys do their thang.

Obviously pirates are vowing revenge etc. now, and have warned to expect attacks on US ships to go up and kill hostages, however i think a war of attrition is in our favor if we have some guys in the Teams out there...

AOL.com said they 'parachuted into the water' to join up with the Bainbridge. Lil' skydiving love for us

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[Amazon 7]

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I was genuinely worried O was not going to pull the trigger on this one. Very happy he did, though it was a small test, at least he followed through and let our boys do their thang.

Amazing how wrong he is proving all the right wing bleating... that is what happens when there is a commander in chief with a brain who uses his military assets wisely instead of massively wasting the brainpower at his disposal and forcing them to retire when they do not tell him what he wants to hear.... so that he can be a macho war president.

[billvon 3,116]

>Obviously pirates are vowing revenge etc. now, and have warned to
>expect attacks on US ships to go up and kill hostages, however i think a
>war of attrition is in our favor . . .

Agreed. Although the example this sets is that you're not going to win once the US gets involved, which is a good lesson for pirates to learn. Good job all around.

[Remster 30]

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The basic problem with police action, you have to
wait for a criminal to do a criminal act.

However, we can take out the ones that have
identified themselves.

Something to note is that there is a special category in international law for pirates. Here is an excellent discussion of applying the well-established laws of piracy to terrorists. It also gives a good background on piracy law.

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/July-August-2005/feature_burgess_julaug05.msp

Some pertinent points:

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More than 2,000 years ago, Marcus Tullius Cicero defined pirates in Roman law as hostis humani generis, "enemies of the human race." From that day until now, pirates have held a unique status in the law as international criminals subject to universal jurisdiction—meaning that they may be captured wherever they are found, by any person who finds them. The ongoing war against pirates is the only known example of state vs. nonstate conflict until the advent of the war on terror, and its history is long and notable.
...
Until 1856, international law recognized only two legal entities: people and states. People were subject to the laws of their own governments; states were subject to the laws made amongst themselves. The Declaration of Paris created a third entity: people who lacked both the individual rights and protections of law for citizens and the legitimacy and sovereignty of states. This understanding of pirates as a legally distinct category of international criminals persists to the present day, and was echoed in the 1958 and 1982 U.N. Conventions on the Law of the Sea. The latter defines the crime of piracy as "any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends." This definition of piracy as private war for private ends may hold the crux of a new legal definition of international terrorists.

So from a legal perspective, if the US wants to make a concerted effort to go after pirates, it has has centuries of of legal precedents to do so.

Busch and Chenney really fucked up! They should have called the "enemy combatants", pirates!

Remster

[JohnRich 4]

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You must have missed the part where I said "excellent job".

Cop-out. Your statement clearly was referring to the SEALS' action.
If you need lame excuses...

Oh, well pardon me. Clearly you know more about what I meant than I do. I only wrote the message from my own thoughts. I stand corrected.

Why don't you use that intuition of yours to tell everyone what I'm thinking now?

[billvon 3,116]

>he just authorized force that probably saved a US Citizen from being killed by
>a bunch of pirates and you still give him shit.

Well, to be fair, it's a really bad day for some of the more extreme right-wingers. The US succeeded militarily against some pirates - and they HATE that. Newt Gingrich has spent the week claiming that Obama "does not have the will to do anything" and will just wait until international law does his job for him. Glenn Beck stated that Obama is "too politically correct" to act, and mocked his actions so far. FOX News has been asking whether Obama will "just string this out and not hurt anybody." So there's a lot of egg to clean off their faces, and they're not handling it well.

(Not saying John's like this - but a lot of conservative news sources are very upset today, and it's affecting their listeners.)

[ryoder 1,590]

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Busch and Cheney really fucked up! They should have called the "enemy combatants", pirates!

There is truth in that. 9/11 began with 4 counts of air piracy.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[sfc 1]

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>he just authorized force that probably saved a US Citizen from being killed by
>a bunch of pirates and you still give him shit.

Well, to be fair, it's a really bad day for some of the more extreme right-wingers. The US succeeded militarily against some pirates - and they HATE that. Newt Gingrich has spent the week claiming that Obama "does not have the will to do anything" and will just wait until international law does his job for him. Glenn Beck stated that Obama is "too politically correct" to act, and mocked his actions so far. FOX News has been asking whether Obama will "just string this out and not hurt anybody." So there's a lot of egg to clean off their faces, and they're not handling it well.

(Not saying John's like this - but a lot of conservative news sources are very upset today, and it's affecting their listeners.)

I guess I'd be mad if I woke up from a trance one day only to find out that people been feeding me shit.

[BDashe 0]

So the righties are happy some bad guys got killed, and are not be too happy/are surprised that O actually gave the order and of course are also stirring the pot with hypotheticals like 'bush/mccain/insert-righty-here would be a war monger in the same scenario' which may or may not be true.

The lefties are waiting with mouths open for that hypothical bait the righties are throwing out and are so eager to say 'See our guy can do anything! he took out 3 unskilled pirates with one of the best trained SEAL platoons!' that they don't care it is just bait since they had a win in a small battle.

Can we at least, try and de-politicize this event and agree for a moment on a Hell Fucking Yeah for the SEALs for getting a little public love and re-demonstrating they are some bad assed mofos on OUR team? That has to send a signal to the rest of the pirates out there, even for as many threats as they put in the headlines now and in the future, you know they ain't feeling too comfy knowing they can be hunted so easily...

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[rushmc 23]

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>he just authorized force that probably saved a US Citizen from being killed by
>a bunch of pirates and you still give him shit.

Well, to be fair, it's a really bad day for some of the more extreme right-wingers. The US succeeded militarily against some pirates - and they HATE that. Newt Gingrich has spent the week claiming that Obama "does not have the will to do anything" and will just wait until international law does his job for him. Glenn Beck stated that Obama is "too politically correct" to act, and mocked his actions so far. FOX News has been asking whether Obama will "just string this out and not hurt anybody." So there's a lot of egg to clean off their faces, and they're not handling it well.

(Not saying John's like this - but a lot of conservative news sources are very upset today, and it's affecting their listeners.)

Actually, it is a good day.

1, he used force as necessary
2, he let the commanders do their job as he should have
3, his military is thinking about bombing the pirates strong holds in another country
and last but not least
4, his admin has made a (floated balloon) proposal to go in country, help them build a coast guard and train some security forces to help them take care of their own country.

Yep, it is a very good day

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[TrophyHusband 0]

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Can we at least, try and de-politicize this event and agree for a moment on a Hell Fucking Yeah for the SEALs

Hell Fucking Yeah! I also have to give our commander in chief props for giving the green light last friday to do this, since i would have certainly blasted him if he hadn't.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[ryoder 1,590]

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For those who might be curious, earlier this morning VADM Bill Gortney, Commander of U.S. Naval Forces Central Command, gave a briefing, “Somali Pirates Briefing,” on the rescue of Maersk - Alabama Captain Richard Phillips, actions being taken w/r/t the detained pirate, and piracy in the Gulf of Aden.

/Marg

Who else watched this video and noted that the Admiral stated the captain gave the order to fire based on a standing order. Now my question is: How long has this standing order existed? A few days? Months? Years?

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[happythoughts 0]

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For those who might be curious, earlier this morning VADM Bill Gortney, Commander of U.S. Naval Forces Central Command, gave a briefing, “Somali Pirates Briefing,” on the rescue of Maersk - Alabama Captain Richard Phillips, actions being taken w/r/t the detained pirate, and piracy in the Gulf of Aden.

/Marg

Who else watched this video and noted that the Admiral stated the captain gave the order to fire based on a standing order. Now my question is: How long has this standing order existed? A few days? Months? Years?

I wonder who would have given the order if things
had not came out so well?

"...acting on his own initiative, gave the order to..."


Right now, there's a congressman in Iowa giving a
speech, "...some months back my committe was
instrumental in defining a framework for
the Piracy Initiative..."

[JohnRich 4]

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TrophyHusband: Hell Fucking Yeah! I also have to give our commander in chief props for giving the green light last friday to do this, since i would have certainly blasted him if he hadn't.

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ryoder: the Admiral stated the captain gave the order to fire based on a standing order. Now my question is: How long has this standing order existed? A few days? Months? Years?

Yep, that's something that's been bugging me, and I'm betting that the full story isn't out yet on this.

It seems to me that Navy Captains should have standing orders to take these kinds of actions any time they feel it necessary, just as par for the course. They shouldn't have to stand by helpless while awaiting some direct order from the president. The president should delegate the rules of engagement for such things, then get out of the way and trust the commanders to do it. If the action was actually delayed while awaiting Obama's decision, then the hostage's life could have been in more danger. And furthermore, does this mean that the entire U.S. military has to await permission to do anything via orders from the White House?

For example: If an opportunity arose to capture Osama bin Laden, they should already have standing orders allowing them to not waste time and to do it. They shouldn't have to wait for Obama. Dealing with pirates on the high seas in international waters should be no different.

[ryoder 1,590]

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Yep, that's something that's been bugging me, and I'm betting that the full story isn't out yet on this.

There was an early report that the captain had jumped in the water a 2nd time in the rescue event, but then that was contradicted. I am still skeptical that the snipers on the fantail is what really happened.

1. SEALs are known to have this ability to operate underwater which could get them very close to the pirates w/o being observed.

2. A tactic that was successful at neutralizing pirates, could be useful again in the future, so why give it away?

3. Shooting from a platform that is bobbing and rolling, at a target that is also bobbing and rolling, can't be easy, especially when a hostage it present. And with 3 perps on board, the shots would need to be simultaneous in order to avoid giving the perps a chance to harm the hostage or dive for cover.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Coreece 190]

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If an opportunity arose to capture Osama bin Laden, they should already have standing orders allowing them to not waste time and to do it. They shouldn't have to wait for Obama. Dealing with pirates on the high seas in international waters should be no different.

The order to "Capture Osama Bin Laden" is a little more tangible than the order to just "Deal with pirates."

I think you'd have to narrow it down a bit to something like "kill pirates when they stick a gun to a captain's head"

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[quade 4]

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For those who might be curious, earlier this morning VADM Bill Gortney, Commander of U.S. Naval Forces Central Command, gave a briefing, “Somali Pirates Briefing,” on the rescue of Maersk - Alabama Captain Richard Phillips, actions being taken w/r/t the detained pirate, and piracy in the Gulf of Aden.

/Marg

Who else watched this video and noted that the Admiral stated the captain gave the order to fire based on a standing order. Now my question is: How long has this standing order existed? A few days? Months? Years?

Obama had given the order on Friday.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[nanook 1]

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Who else watched this video and noted that the Admiral stated the captain gave the order to fire based on a standing order. Now my question is: How long has this standing order existed? A few days? Months? Years?

Years. There may be changes according to what's going on at certain periods. These are CO's Standing Orders, Pre planned Responses, Rules of Engagements, Use of Force, ect. In this situation, Obama's orders was redundant as the use of Deadly Force is authorised by their actions. He can order the Captain not to do something, but the CO as a Commander At Sea has been granted from the very beginning of his tour, the ability to order the use of Deadly force to protect the interests of the US.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln