Viking 0 #1 April 5, 2009 They launched. It went over Japan but no pieces of it fell on Japan. Who do they think they are fooling?! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_nkorea_missileI swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 April 5, 2009 QuoteThey launched. It went over Japan but no pieces of it fell on Japan. Who do they think they are fooling?! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_nkorea_missile (Playing devil's advocate here for a moment.) What do you mean who do they think they are fooling? Let's say North Korea really did want to put up a communications satellite, exactly what direction could they launch it that wouldn't have it going over Japan? Is it their fault they are geographically hemmed in when it comes to launch trajectories? Just take a look at a map and you'll see what I'm talking about. There simply is no launch toward the east (which is a requirement for a communications, weather or "easy" launch) that doesn't go over Japan.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #3 April 5, 2009 Mmm?...OhWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #4 April 5, 2009 Just a matter of time. Always has been. All technology proliferates, eventually. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piper17 1 #5 April 5, 2009 Just a product demonstration for their customers in Iran, Syria, etc. I'm sure the order book will be filling up fast!"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"...Rudyard Kipling Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #6 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteThey launched. It went over Japan but no pieces of it fell on Japan. Who do they think they are fooling?! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_nkorea_missile (Playing devil's advocate here for a moment.) What do you mean who do they think they are fooling? Let's say North Korea really did want to put up a communications satellite, Well, if they wanted to launch a satellite the test was a huge failure. Nothing reached orbit. If they want a long range ballistic missile I'd say that test was a success. We need to re-think Strategic Defense Initiative.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #7 April 5, 2009 +1 and I found the appropriate reply from the UN http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0hk9vaqWUg&feature=related That will show the tyrant!!!"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #8 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteThey launched. It went over Japan but no pieces of it fell on Japan. Who do they think they are fooling?! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_nkorea_missile (Playing devil's advocate here for a moment.) What do you mean who do they think they are fooling? Let's say North Korea really did want to put up a communications satellite, Well, if they wanted to launch a satellite the test was a huge failure. Nothing reached orbit. If they want a long range ballistic missile I'd say that test was a success. We need to re-think Strategic Defense Initiative. Waste even more taxpayer money? We're already over $10 trillion in debt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #9 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteThey launched. It went over Japan but no pieces of it fell on Japan. Who do they think they are fooling?! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_nkorea_missile (Playing devil's advocate here for a moment.) What do you mean who do they think they are fooling? Let's say North Korea really did want to put up a communications satellite, exactly what direction could they launch it that wouldn't have it going over Japan? Is it their fault they are geographically hemmed in when it comes to launch trajectories? Just take a look at a map and you'll see what I'm talking about. There simply is no launch toward the east (which is a requirement for a communications, weather or "easy" launch) that doesn't go over Japan. Ok lets look at that. DPRK says they are going to use this missle tech to launch a Com Sat. That is all fine and dandy. But who the hell do they need to communicate with? China? They are right next door and I'm sure China hasn't been stingy with its Satellite time for its little commy brother. I see your point about where else would the flight path take it but over japan. But they could have set the guided the missile between Main Land Japan and Sapporo Island that way if it dropped something they didn't want it too it would almost certainly splash down in the water. They didn't do that or even bother to inform Japan the exact track of the test so they could prepare. The simple fact of the matter is that the DPRK doesn't care. They are showing off "rattling the saber" so to speak so when they get this missile tech working properly they can sell it to places that we and the rest of the western world don't to have long range missile capabilities. Its the duel use of this missile that scares the hell out of me. We did it the Redstone, Atlas, and Titan II missle for our early space programs. Whats gonna stop Iran from doing the same and drop one on who ever they like from Israel to England? If they are allowed to perfect this thing it WILL end up in the wrong hands sooner or later.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #10 April 5, 2009 Quote Waste even more taxpayer money? We're already over $10 trillion in debt. So how bad do you think the debt will be if they decide to vaporize a city? That missile if 100% operational is design to reach far enough to hit Alaska. That means around a 3500 mile range. A launch from the DPRK could reach Alaska and almost Pearl Harbor. Whats even worse is that a launch from north western Iran could go as far as Iceland. How do you think the world market would react if Paris, Berlin, or London disappeared under a mushroom cloud? How bad would the debt get then?I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #11 April 5, 2009 QuoteSo how bad do you think the debt will be if they decide to vaporize a city? Do you think the North Koreans are unable to imagine what would happen to them if they tried that? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #12 April 5, 2009 QuoteBut who the hell do they need to communicate with? Perhaps they would like to establish their own satellite phone network, so that they do not need to rely on other countries for communications. QuoteThe simple fact of the matter is that the DPRK doesn't care. Wow. I didn't realize you had a source of information high in the North Korean government. That's impressive. Are they still going to keep you in the loop after you give out their secrets on a skydiving forum? QuoteThey are showing off "rattling the saber" so to speak so when they get this missile tech working properly they can sell it to places that we and the rest of the western world don't to have long range missile capabilities. Or maybe they feel that a Mutually Assured Destruction strategy is their best chance of not being invaded by the US for some trumped up reason. QuoteIts the duel use of this missile that scares the hell out of me. We did it the Redstone, Atlas, and Titan II missle for our early space programs. Does it scare the hell out of you that the US utilizes technology that could be used for less than benevolent purposes? There's very little technology that could not be used to further bad intentions. That's no reason to withhold technology from developing nations or make other attempts to keep them from developing such technologies themselves. QuoteWhats gonna stop Iran from doing the same and drop one on who ever they like from Israel to England? Or even launching a communications satellite -- oh, the horror! QuoteIf they are allowed to perfect this thing it WILL end up in the wrong hands sooner or later. Remind us again which countries have used nuclear weapons on civilian populations. Surely a country that has demonstrated their willingness to take such actions should not be allowed to have nuclear weapons, right?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #13 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuote Waste even more taxpayer money? We're already over $10 trillion in debt. So how bad do you think the debt will be if they decide to vaporize a city? That missile if 100% operational is design to reach far enough to hit Alaska. That means around a 3500 mile range. A launch from the DPRK could reach Alaska and almost Pearl Harbor. Whats even worse is that a launch from north western Iran could go as far as Iceland. How do you think the world market would react if Paris, Berlin, or London disappeared under a mushroom cloud? How bad would the debt get then? Do you really think that a missile is the only delivery mechanism for a nuclear attack? The best defensive policy for the US is to attempt to improve relations with our current enemies while actively trying to not create new ones.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #14 April 5, 2009 QuoteQuoteSo how bad do you think the debt will be if they decide to vaporize a city? Do you think the North Koreans are unable to imagine what would happen to them if they tried that? Do you think we have the stones to respond in kind? I wonder how South Korea would react. Probly with invasion. China would back North Korea we would back the south and two super powers go Toe to Toe over the Korea Peninsula.......again.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #15 April 5, 2009 Quote Do you really think that a missile is the only delivery mechanism for a nuclear attack? The best defensive policy for the US is to attempt to improve relations with our current enemies while actively trying to not create new ones. Oh certainly not! You could drive the thing to your target in a truck if you could get it past all the border crossing. You could use a long range bomber to do it. But a Long Range missile is easiest way to deliver that payload in the shortest amount of time. Ya lets talk to them. That got a lot done when we asked nicely Please don't make an atomic bomb. Did a hell of a lot when we asked them not to build an LRBM. If all you do is talk then when its time to act or react as the case may be then your standing there with your thumb up your ass.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #16 April 5, 2009 QuoteOh certainly not! You could drive the thing to your target in a truck if you could get it past all the border crossing. Right, which is one of the reasons Star Wars is is a waste of money. If if it worked reliably, every single time, it only protects us from a particular delivery method, not the weapon itself. QuoteIf all you do is talk then when its time to act or react as the case may be then your standing there with your thumb up your ass. The flip side to that is when a country writes a national foreign policy as though they are a paranoid schizophrenic, that nation risks carrying out a military attack under false pretenses, serving no purpose except spending several hundreds of billions of dollars, and killing countless civilians, and guaranteeing the creation of more enemies.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Viking 0 #17 April 6, 2009 QuotePerhaps they would like to establish their own satellite phone network, so that they do not need to rely on other countries for communications. Thats fine. If they had gone to the international community and said "We would like to put out own Com Sat in orbit" Pretty sure it would have gotten done for alot less money that what was spent designing and building this Missile system. If all they wanted was to put a satellite in orbit there are cheaper ways than to build your own missile. QuoteWow. I didn't realize you had a source of information high in the North Korean government. That's impressive. Are they still going to keep you in the loop after you give out their secrets on a skydiving forum? Hahaha so your not going to deny that there actions of were reckless? They did three things that screem "I don't care and i'll do what i damn well please. 1. Launching the missile knowing it was going over another country. 2. Not informing Japan of the exact flight path so they can be prepared if the worst happens. 3. Didn't make any effort what so ever to assure that that the missile went over only water. Don't have to have Kim Jonh Il on speed dial to think for yourself and figure it out. QuoteOr maybe they feel that a Mutually Assured Destruction strategy is their best chance of not being invaded by the US for some trumped up reason More than likely i'm sure thats gone through there heads. But if thats the truth then this idea of using the design only to launch a satellite is complete bullshit. If thats the case then you just know that Iran with all its oil money and hatred of the west will be in the check out line. QuoteDoes it scare the hell out of you that the US utilizes technology that could be used for less than benevolent purposes? There's very little technology that could not be used to further bad intentions. That's no reason to withhold technology from developing nations or make other attempts to keep them from developing such technologies themselves. Nope it doesn't. We do our best to keep track of things that could be used to build weapons of mass destruction. Giving tech to developing countries is fine. But when that country and the people that supply them start talking about wiping a country off the map (Israel) thats where the problems start. QuoteOr even launching a communications satellite -- oh, the horror! I will respond to this with one question. With the current leader of that country do you trust Iran with a Missile capable of reaching Iceland? QuoteRemind us again which countries have used nuclear weapons on civilian populations. Surely a country that has demonstrated their willingness to take such actions should not be allowed to have nuclear weapons, right? We used the bomb to end a World War that we didn't start. The issue here is the possibility that the bomb could be used to start one. The argument on if the bomb should have been used or not is a different thread.I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #18 April 6, 2009 QuoteThats fine. If they had gone to the international community and said "We would like to put out own Com Sat in orbit" Pretty sure it would have gotten done for alot less money that what was spent designing and building this Missile system. And they would still be relying on other countries. By doing it themselves, they free themselves from some of that reliance. QuoteHahaha so your not going to deny that there actions of were reckless? I don't see it as reckless at all. Quote They did three things that screem "I don't care and i'll do what i damn well please. 1. Launching the missile knowing it was going over another country. 2. Not informing Japan of the exact flight path so they can be prepared if the worst happens. 3. Didn't make any effort what so ever to assure that that the missile went over only water. 1. As has already been pointed out, reasonable alternatives were not available. 2. Yet, Japan was still prepared for the worst case (which did not, in fact, happen) 3. See number 1. QuoteDon't have to have Kim Jonh Il on speed dial to think for yourself and figure it out. Unfortunately, what you figured out doesn't have much semblance to reality. Launching a communications satellite is not the same as launching an offensive weapon, and should not be treated as such. QuoteMore than likely i'm sure thats gone through there heads. But if thats the truth then this idea of using the design only to launch a satellite is complete bullshit. Not at all. One can be fully aware that a project offers dual use potential without having any intentions that aren't benevolent. QuoteIf thats the case then you just know that Iran with all its oil money and hatred of the west will be in the check out line. At least that's what the west, with their overabundance of paranoia, will believe. QuoteNope it doesn't. We do our best to keep track of things that could be used to build weapons of mass destruction. Why the double standard? QuoteGiving tech to developing countries is fine. But when that country and the people that supply them start talking about wiping a country off the map (Israel) thats where the problems start. Remind me again when North Korea attempted to wipe Israel off the map. Or are you sensationalizing paranoia? QuoteWith the current leader of that country do you trust Iran with a Missile capable of reaching Iceland? Do you even know who the current leader of Iran is? Hint: It is not Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. QuoteWe used the bomb to end a World War that we didn't start. The issue here is the possibility that the bomb could be used to start one. I'm sorry. I didn't realize the middle east was currently enjoying peace. Or are you claiming that North Korea is not currently at war? Personally, I think a nuclear weapon is one of the least likely potential WMD that we might see from any developing country. The expense is simply too high. (Besides, I seem to recall some guy from our ally Pakistan already making nuclear weapons available for sale.) When al Qaeda attacked on 9/11, they used our planes. They used our training facilities. They lost very few of their own lives compared to the number of enemy (from their perspective) lives taken. It was brilliant military strategy. Sun Tzu would have been proud. They utilized their enemies resources in order to conserve their own, as much possible. Furthermore, they elicited a reaction from our leaders that served to strengthen their own numbers, while draining the US treasury. If one is to believe OBL's claim that his goal was to destroy the US economy, it would appear his strategy has been an overwhelming success. The point is, our enemies aren't foolish enough to take us on head to head. They're well aware that we are the favorites to win any such confrontation. They also are very unlikely to spend big bucks to accomplish something that could be done on the cheap. A nuclear weapon doesn't fit that criteria well. On the other hand, if a country were to go to war, satellite communications could prove to be critical. Of course, that doesn't mean a communications satellite launch indicates North Korea plans to go to war with anyone else; a communications satellite certainly could be used benevolently by a developing (or developed) country.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #19 April 6, 2009 QuoteThe simple fact of the matter is that the DPRK doesn't care. They are showing off "rattling the saber" so to speak so when they get this missile tech working properly they can sell it to places that we and the rest of the western world don't to have long range missile capabilities. Its the duel use of this missile that scares the hell out of me. Now explain how the USA does not do such things? and how those that do not have the same ideals as the USA should feel any less threatened than you do right now?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #20 April 6, 2009 Quote Sun Tzu would have been proud. hmmmm...I never thought Sun Tzu to be a coward.Do you mind shoving that comment back in your ass?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #21 April 6, 2009 If NoKo had something we didn't have we'd want it. Hence they are being American and showing they aren't to be fucked with. NoKo is, in my opinions, the scariest friggin place out there. They have the will to use it. Our disagreements are pretty well known but I agree with you here. NoKo is operating under fear of the US. They want to balance it out. Of course, NoKo really doesn't have much to worry about. First, we cannot win a conventional warfare situation with NoKo. As a Congressman (who told me why we really went to war in Iraq when I called bullshit) told me, any action against NoKo would result in Seoul being part of NoKo in 3 days unless we use nukes. Any conentional attack on NoKo would be foolish. Second, we don't have the will to use nukes. NoKo knows this. What the fuck are we gonna do? Attack them? They'll take SoKo. But that won't do them much good - they don't like SoKo. But some concessions from the US make mighty fine stuff. I agree with you but I take it a step further. Not only to they want to even up the threat level but they also want to get some more goodies. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #22 April 6, 2009 >If they had gone to the international community and said "We would like > to put out own Com Sat in orbit" Pretty sure it would have gotten done >for alot less money that what was spent designing and building this >Missile system. Quite true. But as a sovereign country they get to do stupid things with their money. >But if thats the truth then this idea of using the design only to launch a >satellite is complete bullshit. Well, it's as bullshit as our space program, at least. (All our original launchers were ICBM's.) > We do our best to keep track of things that could be used to build > weapons of mass destruction. True. But while our intentions are good, we have lost far more WMD components than North Korea has built. >With the current leader of that country do you trust Iran with a Missile >capable of reaching Iceland? No more so than I trust the current leader of China with missiles capable of reaching Los Angeles, Washington DC and New York. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #23 April 6, 2009 Quote If all they wanted was to put a satellite in orbit there are cheaper ways than to build your own missile. Absolutely. I suspect the US would pay for that launch in lieu of a missile development program. Even paying for the launch would be substantially cheaper, and we're talking about a country that had very little currency, relying on remitted funds from relatives outside the border. Anyone asserting this isn't about ICBMs is lying. It's all about strengthening the deterrence value their prior tests gave them. But should it worry us that much? Why? We've already dropped any talk about military action against them even without a missile delivery system. And the least discreet way to attack someone is with an ICBM. You have to reject MAD to see this as plausible, and virtually no one argues that. A few think that MAD doesn't apply to nationless bodies, but that wouldn't apply here. One question is what will push Japan to develop its own nuclear program. If they ever want to, they can have it in months Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryzflies 0 #24 April 6, 2009 Objecting with righteous indignation when others do the exact same things you have done yourself is a sure indication of hypocrisy.If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #25 April 6, 2009 Smart comments overall. Quote One question is what will push Japan to develop its own nuclear program. By what mechanism/thinking do you see this rocket test pushing it? The October 2006 test/fizzle (it's still debated) or a 2nd more successful test or resumption of program with a 2nd test would seem to be a more likely inducement. As DPRK is now 0 for 2 tries in Taepodong-2 tests, it raises the question for me of how much DPRK’s missile technology resembles Iran’s & the extent of the client state/close cooperation relationship. (E.g., see Congressional testimony by Bob Walpole about the relationship between the Nodong [likely 1st stage of the Taepodong] and the Shahab.) The Shahab-3 has a potential 1,250 mile range (that would reach Israel not Iceland), and the Iranians have demonstrated that they can get at least 3 out 4 rockets to fire (before PhotoShop). Pakistan has not needed help from the DPRK for at least a decade, and the Ghauri is being replaced by the superior Shaheen. DPRK technology is being rapidly exceeded by its former client states. If DPRK wants to sell this technology, the latest test was the marketing equivalent of New Coke (for a second time). On a rather flippant note, I completely expect the DPRK to file a report on the faux-satellite … or as one missile-wonk colleague of mine quipped “the highly unique North Korean satellite has entered subaquatic orbit in the Pacific Ocean, and is transmitting melodies of the immortal revolutionary paeans ‘Song of General Kim Il-sung’ and ‘Song of General Kim Jong-il’ on a 15 kHz acoustic channel.” /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
