yet another American mass shooting

[futuredivot 0]

OK, I mispoke-but the places that these shooting occur seem to be places of work, schools, church, etc where people don't typically, or aren't allowed to carry guns. They don't typically get pissed at police precincts, pawn shops, gun stores-or at least if a nut does have a beef with such a place, going in with a gun doesn't seem as attractive.
I'm not saying that you should always carry.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[sfc 1]

and another, this time 5 kids :(

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090405/ap_on_re_us/children_slain;_ylt=AtR0jjl00WICLvQytC7Y22IDW7oF

[dmkellett 0]

It's pretty Obvious to the rest of the world.......

Everyone packing a tool = lots of shootings....

Strict gun control = lots less shootings.....

OK shootings do occur in all countries with all levels of control but for god;s sake cant america see that they are WAY out in front ??? Is it that hard to weigh evidence and take appropriate action?

I bet there would be a civil war if they tried to ban guns in the states, and soooooooo many would end up on the black market it would make no difference now anyhow.. but I guess USA is just too far gone. A very sad state of affairs when everyone is packing...

[mnealtx 0]

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It's pretty Obvious to the rest of the world.......

Everyone packing a tool = lots of shootings....

Yeah, all those mass murders in Switzerland...just horrible!!

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Strict gun control = lots less shootings.....

With all the strict gun control, why are there ANY?

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OK shootings do occur in all countries with all levels of control but for god;s sake cant america see that they are WAY out in front ???

Cultural issue - the US has much more gang crime than other countries.

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Is it that hard to weigh evidence and take appropriate action?

And what action would that be, pray tell?

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I bet there would be a civil war if they tried to ban guns in the states, and soooooooo many would end up on the black market it would make no difference now anyhow..

That right there is why your "appropriate action" line above is a crock - it will do NOTHING to prevent the criminals from getting weapons on the black market.

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A very sad state of affairs when everyone is packing...

Yeah, whatever - it sure sucks when the victims are on an equal level as the criminals in regards to available force, doesn't it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skyrad 0]

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People in the States clearly don't need more guns but they do seem to need more Kevlar vests.

Yeap - that's the solution - Body Armour.

Maybe President Obama could start a programme where the American people could hand in a firearm and get a balistic jacket in return. He's doing a grand job.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[shropshire 0]

Alternatively - anyone owning a gun has to buy 10 pieces of body armour and hand them out to people in their neighbourhood

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Skyrad 0]

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Cultural issue - the US has much more gang crime than other countries.

I doubt it, do you have any evidence or is that your opinion?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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It's pretty Obvious to the rest of the world.......

Everyone packing a tool = lots of shootings....

Like in Switzerland, with all those machine guns in the basement.

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Strict gun control = lots less shootings.....

Like in Jamaica, with a current murder rate of 44/100,000. Or Mexico (where they got rid of nasty things like hand guns in 1968) where it's 13/100,000.

In the United States as of 2005 it was 3.3/100,000 white people even including places with strict gun control and the resulting high crime.

Head for Vermont where you don't even need a permit to carry concealed and it's 2.6/100,000 residents of all colors.

Go some place nice like Fairfax County, Virginia and it's .3/100,000.

Gun-free London is 2.4/100,000.

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Is it that hard to weigh evidence and take appropriate action?

It's pretty easy to weigh the evidence and take appropriate action. With the National Crime and Victimization surveys showing that the injury rate is lower among crime victims who resist with a gun versus complying or any other form of resistance and crime rates dropping faster in the places with liberal carry laws more states are taking notce.

Some people don't feel too good about that though, and would rather live with higher violent crime rates.

[mnealtx 0]

Or Washington DC... 30.4/100k.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skyrad 0]

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Gun-free London is 2.4/100,000.

Is that the murder rate or the the murder rate for murders with firearms?

Even if it is for murder with firearms its a massive difference between.

2.4/100,000 and

Washington DC... 30.4/100k.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mnealtx 0]

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Gun-free London is 2.4/100,000.

Is that the murder rate or the the murder rate for murders with firearms?

Even if it is for murder with firearms its a massive difference between.

2.4/100,000 and

Washington DC... 30.4/100k.

That's all murders for the US stats, Jamile.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Skyrad 0]

Thanks, actually I'm not for banning personal firearms. But something celarly needs to be done. What needs to change is gun culture rather than the ownership. Its easy to say but difficult to do.
I wonder what it is that is so different about US culture that makes people so ready to pick up a gun and shoot someone. It is that society there depicts people as successes or otherwise by the value of their assets? Is it that people are told that they need all kinds of matierial object to be happy? Is it the lack of ability to communicate effectivly?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mnealtx 0]

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I wonder what it is that is so different about US culture that makes people so ready to pick up a gun and shoot someone. It is that society there depicts people as successes or otherwise by the value of their assets? Is it that people are told that they need all kinds of matierial object to be happy? Is it the lack of ability to communicate effectivly?

Good points - as I said, I believe cultural differences play a large part. Gang violence and drug crime drive a lot of the shootings, I think - I recall a reference to some 60-70% but I don't know how accurate that is.

I'd love to see the Brady folks explain how they can say guns cause crime when (legal) gun ownership is at an all time high and violent crime is at a (IIRC) 25 year low.

We've spent the last 25 or so years raising a couple of generations of kids that have no respect for anything or anyone, while DEMANDING that *they* be respected...now we're reaping what we've sown, IMO. The Brady folks bleat about 'violent video games'... I think glorification of criminals in modern popular music and movies is a more likely source, if such things *do* have an effect.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Yet in all the recent shootings in the US how come not one of them was stopped by a innocent member of the public carrying their firearm? It just doesn't happen, it seems more and more like a bullshit argument.

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April 2nd (Poteet, TX): Shotgun-toting robbery suspect shot and killed by business owner. A business owner shot and killed a suspected robber near Poteet according to deputies.

The Atascosa Co. Sheriff’s investigators say around midnight two robbers burst into Larry's Game Room on Hwy 16. That’s about seven miles north of Poteet.

The robbers, who had a shotgun and pistol, fired one shot in the ceiling and began demanding money. They forced a female worker to ground and pointed shotgun at her. The business owner came out of the backroom with a 40-caliber handgun and shot one of the robbers in the head.

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April 3rd (Columbus, OH):Suspect Shot During Gas Station Robbery

Police said a man was shot during a robbery at a northeast side gas station early Thursday.

Two men went into Sam's Gas and Food, located at 1773 Fifth Ave., shortly after midnight as it was closing, 10TV's Tino Ramos reported.

Police said the men had guns and attempted to rob the store. One of the clerks grabbed a gun and shots were exchanged between the worker and the robbers. One of the suspects was shot in the back.

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April 1st (Catskill, NY):
Man jailed with a gunshot wound after harassing ex-wife

A 47-year-old man is in the Greene County jail with a gunshot wound after State Police say he showed up drunk at his estranged wife's home and harassed her and her sister.

Troopers got a call around 5:30 Monday evening from a 49-year-old woman who said she had just shot her sister's ex-husband.

Police say Geraldine Finelli armed herself with a 20-gauge shotgun after Donald Case Jr. showed up making threats. When Case refused to leave, she fired one round toward the ground, striking Case in the lower leg.

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April 1st (Akron, OH):Pizza shop owner describes robbery, shooting

John Hayes wants only to sell pizzas, not shoot robbers.

But the day after his West Akron pizza parlor was held up and he shot and killed the shotgun-armed robber, Hayes remains concerned about his business, his life and the health of his six workers.

That's just a taste - it happens, and happens quite often, it just doesn't get reported on the national news. Estimates show that some 200k - 700k crimes per year are stopped by armed citizens.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jerryzflies 0]

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Estimates show that some 200k - 700k crimes per year are stopped by armed citizens.

Estimates don't show anything. Don't confuse estimates with data.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[jerryzflies 0]

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I wonder what it is that is so different about US culture that makes people so ready to pick up a gun and shoot someone.

It's that it most cases a gun is so easily at hand. What would lead to a fist fight in most of the world leads to a shooting here.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[mnealtx 0]

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I wonder what it is that is so different about US culture that makes people so ready to pick up a gun and shoot someone.

It's that it most cases a gun is so easily at hand. What would lead to a fist fight in most of the world leads to a shooting here.

Don't confuse opinions with data, either.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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Estimates show that some 200k - 700k crimes per year are stopped by armed citizens.

Estimates don't show anything. Don't confuse estimates with data.

Seeing as how some of those estimates come from FBI data, I think I'll take their word for it over your opinion, thanks.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jerryzflies 0]

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Estimates show that some 200k - 700k crimes per year are stopped by armed citizens.

Estimates don't show anything. Don't confuse estimates with data.

Seeing as how some of those estimates come from FBI data, I think I'll take their word for it over your opinion, thanks.

And the DoJ estimates that well over 300,000 guns pass from "law abiding citizens" to criminals every year, and that is even before straw purchases are taken into account.

Seems like a double edged sword, doesn't it?

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[TomAiello 26]

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I don't get it, people here are always saying that if there are restrictions on firearms then the innocent would not be able to defend themselves. Yet in all the recent shootings in the US how come not one of them was stopped by a innocent member of the public carrying their firearm? It just doesn't happen, it seems more and more like a bullshit argument.

If an innocent produces a firearm in self defense, the most likely result is not a shootout that makes the news--it's a non-news event where the shooter flees.

Those sorts of events don't make the news.

I don't have the statistics (anyone who does, can you give us some links) but I'd bet money that the vast majority of self-defensive uses of firearms result in no injuries--most likely in zero shots fired. That's because simply brandishing a firearm in self defense is enough to make any rational (i.e. not drug crazed or actually insane) criminal leave you alone and look for a softer target.


If there were lots of reports of people shooting others in self-defense, I'd be worried that concealed carry and defensive firearm use were bad ideas, because it would show that we're arming a lot of irresponsible people. The current trend (victims engaging in rational self-defense without over-reacting by pumping their attacker full of lead) actually shows that an armed citizenry is responsible enough to be trusted with weapons, not that they ought to be disarmed.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[skybill 22]

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I don't get it, people here are always saying that if there are restrictions on firearms then the innocent would not be able to defend themselves. Yet in all the recent shootings in the US how come not one of them was stopped by a innocent member of the public carrying their firearm? It just doesn't happen, it seems more and more like a bullshit argument.

Hi rad,
You wonder why,"not one of them was stopped by a 'innocent member of the public' carrying their firearm?" Well, I don't know about Ireland but over here rapists, murderers and other villans are protected from us by their being able to sue us in court if we interfere with their "work in progress" no matter if it is against someone else or our personal selves!! Best let "The Only Ones" (the police, etc.) take care of it!! Just let the criminals do their work then let "The Only Ones" come in with their yellow tape, secure the scene and clean up the mess. Afterward, if the criminal is still alive and taken into custody, then they get a nice "Latte' Lipping Liberal Lawyer" to defend them and sue the victim for depriving them of their civil rights, the co$t of all this being borne by the taxpayer. All this creates jobs and economic growth. Sorry dude, the "Wild West" got tamed, Hillary, Nancy, Harry and Barry got the Sheriffs' Badges and all we get to do is pay taxe$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!! Got that!?

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[Skyrad 0]

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I wonder what it is that is so different about US culture that makes people so ready to pick up a gun and shoot someone. It is that society there depicts people as successes or otherwise by the value of their assets? Is it that people are told that they need all kinds of matierial object to be happy? Is it the lack of ability to communicate effectivly?

Good points - as I said, I believe cultural differences play a large part. Gang violence and drug crime drive a lot of the shootings, I think - I recall a reference to some 60-70% but I don't know how accurate that is.

I'd love to see the Brady folks explain how they can say guns cause crime when (legal) gun ownership is at an all time high and violent crime is at a (IIRC) 25 year low.

We've spent the last 25 or so years raising a couple of generations of kids that have no respect for anything or anyone, while DEMANDING that *they* be respected...now we're reaping what we've sown, IMO. The Brady folks bleat about 'violent video games'... I think glorification of criminals in modern popular music and movies is a more likely source, if such things *do* have an effect.

I think you're right.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[christelsabine 1]

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....
We've spent the last 25 or so years raising a couple of generations of kids that have no respect for anything or anyone, while DEMANDING that *they* be respected...now we're reaping what we've sown, IMO. The Brady folks bleat about 'violent video games'... I think glorification of criminals in modern popular music and movies is a more likely source, if such things *do* have an effect.

What a lame excuse is that "Violent video games ..... modern popular music ....." BS.

It's in parents competency to raise their own kids in a proper way. It's parents' responsibility to control possible access to weapons - or better: To prevent any easy access.

It does not need to blame anything on "violent video games", if kiddy just needs to open a drawer to put his hands on a revolver - and doing same thing which daddy is doing every free minute at the shooting range. And as daddy loves his kids, he's kind enough to teach them how to handle that shiny steel toy and how to shoot

Nice.

But, it's easier to blame it to video games or music.

What a lame, convenient excuse.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[mnealtx 0]

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....
We've spent the last 25 or so years raising a couple of generations of kids that have no respect for anything or anyone, while DEMANDING that *they* be respected...now we're reaping what we've sown, IMO. The Brady folks bleat about 'violent video games'... I think glorification of criminals in modern popular music and movies is a more likely source, if such things *do* have an effect.

What a lame excuse is that "Violent video games ..... modern popular music ....." BS.

It's in parents competency to raise their own kids in a proper way. It's parents' responsibility to control possible access to weapons - or better: To prevent any easy access.

It does not need to blame anything on "violent video games", if kiddy just needs to open a drawer to put his hands on a revolver - and doing same thing which daddy is doing every free minute at the shooting range. And as daddy loves his kids, he's kind enough to teach them how to handle that shiny steel toy and how to shoot

Nice.

But, it's easier to blame it to video games or music.

What a lame, convenient excuse.

And even easier to blame the gun, by the tone of your rant.

I've got a better idea for you - TEACH the child at a young age that it's not a friggin toy. TAKE them to the range and show them HOW to safely handle a firearm.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Shotgun 1]

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I wonder what it is that is so different about US culture that makes people so ready to pick up a gun and shoot someone.

The majority of the U.S. population is not ready to pick up a gun and shoot someone. I know that we have more gun violence than other countries, and I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps it has something to do with our history and the widespread availability of guns, but I don't see that as something that can really be changed. I think that people who have a tendency toward violence will find one way or another whether guns are available or not.

I believe that we actually have more alcohol-related deaths in this country than firearm-related deaths, so I find it interesting that we have so many people calling for more regulation of guns, yet very few people calling for more regulation of alcohol. I guess it has to do with the more newsworthy gun incidents and the fact that there are a lot more people who drink alcohol than there are who own guns.(?)