revisiting 911 truth in the Obama days...

[mnealtx 0]

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Yes, I'd expect an 800C stream of molten aluminum mixed with organic trash to look like a shower of glowing stuff.

wow, the fires reached "at least" 800 degrees, so aluminium that has fallen hundreds of feet in a shower through cool morning air would still be 800 degrees?

you really are stretching your imagination there Bill.

Let me tell you, aluminium remains silver well after it melts, you have to increase the heat significantly to produce a glowing orange of that shade, keeping it that hot while falling hundreds of feet?

well, you decide!

You seem quite content with your thoughts and observations so i'll leave you with them.

Attached is a photo of molten aluminiun just to refresh you memory.

So? Are you thinking that your photo is supposed to somehow disprove what Bill said?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,111]

> so aluminium that has fallen hundreds of feet in a shower through
>cool morning air would still be 800 degrees?

No, it might cool to as low as 500 degrees, which is 300C of cooling (almost 600 degrees F of cooling.) At 500C the glow is still visible (but dim) in daylight. And yes, a stream of molten metal can easily lose less than 600F while falling hundreds of feet. Watch any volcanic eruption that sends lava into the air.

>Let me tell you, aluminium remains silver well after it melts, you
>have to increase the heat significantly to produce a glowing orange
>of that shade, keeping it that hot while falling hundreds of feet?

OK, we're speaking different languages here.

Yes, it is still basically silver (or more accurately dull gray, since it will be oxidizing rapidly.) That's because color is determined by reflected light. The glow you are talking about comes from blackbody radiation, which is radiation emitted by warm objects.

Turn a tungsten-filament bulb on slowly via a dimmer. At some point the filament will appear to go from gray to reddish, at about 500C. That's not the filament changing its basic color, that's the filament reflecting light PLUS the blackbody radiation.

Now, if you illuminate that with a very strong light, it will go back to looking silver. Again that's not because the color changed, it's because the reflected light is now overpowering the blackbody radiation.

That, of course, is for pure aluminum. A mixture of burning plastic and aluminum will likely look quite different, since you will also see the combustion products (i.e. flames) of the plastic as it burns in the air. So you'll hawe a combination of reflected light (silver) blackbody radiation (red) and combustion products (red-orange-yellow.)

[billvon 3,111]

Here are two pictures that may make things a bit clearer. The first is an alloy of aluminum that melts at 660C. Note that it glows red at that temperature.

The second is an unknown alloy (so the exact melting temp is unknown.) This one is being poured outside. Note that it is both glowing AND silver! You are seeing blackbody radiation _and_ reflection.

[rhys 0]

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So? Are you thinking that your photo is supposed to somehow disprove what Bill said?

Not really, just pointing out to others that aluminium flows easily when it is still sliver colour.

Why would it stick around until it is 800 degrees when it could easily flow away at a much lower temperature?

and even if it was heated as it flowed across a giant heat sink that is a steel and concrete floor section, would it still be 800 degrees when it had fallen hundreds of feet?

bill logic does not make sence.

Also, Why is there nano thrmite in "all" dust samples tested by independant reseachers, some combusted and some not.

Why is there abundant amounts of iron microspheres also in the dust.

If you think there is not, how do you claim to know this when NIST admits to never searching for it?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 3,111]

>Why would it stick around until it is 800 degrees when it could
>easily flow away at a much lower temperature?

?? It wouldn't. Most of it probably escaped away at lower temperatures.

>and even if it was heated as it flowed across a giant heat sink that
>is a steel and concrete floor section . . . .

. . . covered in burning fuel and carpet . . .

>would it still be 800 degrees when it had fallen hundreds of feet?

Nope! But it wouldn't have to be. It doesn't have to be 800C to glow red. See the pictures above.

>Why is there nano thrmite in "all" dust samples tested by
>independant reseachers, some combusted and some not

Probably the same reason you can find human fecal matter in almost all food, and uranium in almost all dirt. It's not because Bush tried to nuke your house or poison you; it's because there are tiny amounts of almost everything everywhere.

[rhys 0]

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The first is an alloy of aluminum that melts at 660C. Note that it glows red at that temperature.

I read that report today, you failed to mention that metal;

A, is indoors in a dark room

B, has a powerful current surging through it

C, is still in the process of being heated to a much higher temperature

D, was not glowing orange when it first melted

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The second is an unknown alloy (so the exact melting temp is unknown.) This one is being poured outside. Note that it is both glowing AND silver! You are seeing blackbody radiation _and_ reflection.

you also might notice it has just been removed from the heat source in a controlled environment and is being poured only a few cetemetres from a red hot recepticle.

Kooks science!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Yes, I'd expect an 800C stream of molten aluminum mixed with organic trash to look like a shower of glowing stuff.

wow, the fires reached "at least" 800 degrees, so aluminium that has fallen hundreds of feet in a shower through cool morning air would still be 800 degrees?

you really are stretching your imagination there Bill.

Let me tell you, aluminium remains silver well after it melts, you have to increase the heat significantly to produce a glowing orange of that shade, keeping it that hot while falling hundreds of feet?

well, you decide!

You seem quite content with your thoughts and observations so i'll leave you with them.

Attached is a photo of molten aluminiun just to refresh you memory.

What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/aluminum/glowing.html

But don't just take somebody's word for it, especially given the site i linked to. You can prove it to yourself quite easily with an aluminum can and a propane torch. Don't forget something to measure the temps with.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 3,111]

>A, is indoors in a dark room
>B, has a powerful current surging through it
>C, is still in the process of being heated to a much higher temperature
>D, was not glowing orange when it first melted

All could well be correct. Result - glowing molten aluminum, that will remain glowing for some time. And there wasn't even any burning plastic in it!

>you also might notice it has just been removed from the heat
>source in a controlled environment and is being poured only a few
>cetemetres from a red hot recepticle.

Also correct. Result - glowing molten aluminum, that will remain glowing for some time. And there wasn't even any burning plastic in it!

Looks like you've just demonstrated that what you saw in that video might well be molten aluminum, perhaps with some burning plastic in it.

Next issue?

[normiss 892]

Wow. Interesting differences in processes. More so when the metal is 'dirty' as would be expected in the towers.

Molten aluminum

[normiss 892]

Molten Aluminum Testing

Covers this topic quite thoroughly, much like Bill has.

[kallend 2,146]

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Molten Aluminum Testing

Covers this topic quite thoroughly, much like Bill has.

Pure Al melts at 660 degrees C. Al alloys generally melt at lower temperatures.

Color Approximate Temperature
°F °C K
Faint Red 930 500 770
Blood Red 1075 580 855
Dark Cherry 1175 635 910
Medium Cherry 1275 690 965
Cherry 1375 745 1020
Bright Cherry 1450 790 1060

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,111]

>Pure Al melts at 660 degrees C. Al alloys generally melt at lower temperatures.

To expand on this, pure aluminum will be glowing pretty brightly when it melts. Alloys will tend to glow less since they melt at lower temps. For example, alloy 6061, the most commonly used alloy, melts at around 580C. At that temperature it will be glowing a faint dull red. In bright sun it might appear silver or gray; in darker areas it might appear reddish, depending on the lighting.

Boeing 757's and 767's are made of a variety of alloys, from 7150 in high stress areas to 6061 in less critical areas (cheaper, easier to work.)

[kallend 2,146]

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>Pure Al melts at 660 degrees C. Al alloys generally melt at lower temperatures.

To expand on this, pure aluminum will be glowing pretty brightly when it melts. Alloys will tend to glow less since they melt at lower temps. For example, alloy 6061, the most commonly used alloy, melts at around 580C. At that temperature it will be glowing a faint dull red. In bright sun it might appear silver or gray; in darker areas it might appear reddish, depending on the lighting.

Boeing 757's and 767's are made of a variety of alloys, from 7150 in high stress areas to 6061 in less critical areas (cheaper, easier to work.)

Of course, there's nothing to stop the molten metal being at a temperature considerably above its melting point.

(and off-topic, 6061 is considerably more resistant to corrosion than the 7xxx alloys, which is another reason it is in widespread use despite not being so strong).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rhys 0]

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What are your thoughts on this?
http://www.drjudywood.com/...luminum/glowing.html

But don't just take somebody's word for it, especially given the site i linked to. You can prove it to yourself quite easily with an aluminum can and a propane torch. Don't forget something to measure the temps with.

Judy forgot to tell us all that two of those photos are in fact molten iron and are published in a book called Iron Melting Cupola Furnaces for the Small Foundry
By Stephen D. Chastain.



Stephen D Chastain was contacted and he confirmed that the liquid in the photos is in fact iron;

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So, I decided to contacted Steve Chastain (by phone and email), who is the author of
the book “Build an Oil Fired Tilting Furnace” and asked him to verify if those 2 pictures
were of aluminum, as Judy claimed. He responded and said, that the photos were NOT
aluminum, but were photographs of iron, and were misplaced by the webmaster.
As a matter of fact, they are not even in the textbook named “Build an Oil Fired Tilting
Furnace” as Judy implies. They are actually from a book named “Iron Melting Cupola
Furnaces for the Small Foundry”.

here is the coverof the book by the same author

metal casting: a sand casting manual for the small foundry vol 2

Now let me be clear to all of you guys that this photo (metal casting: a sand casting manual for the small foundry vol 2) is an example of what I have withnessed many times when I have been casting aluminium, I was a jeweller and sculptor when I immediately left school and was so for a period of 5 years, I melted metal on a regular basis with an oxy acetylene plant.

It is the observations I made while doing this that have allowed me to understand what molten metal should look like.
I am totally aware and I'm sure Dr. Stven Jones is also aware that aluminium is capable of glowing orange, but not until it is heated significantly above its melting point.

The photos you are providing and the journals you provide are bogus.

You are 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

Why not show an experiment where molten aluminium is allowed to fall through the air?

How is a smoke filled oxygen starved office fire akin to a furnace?

it is not!

keep trying!

I would like to be proven wrong, but I believe your efforts are in vien, it is quite obvious your understanding of the properties of molten aluminium are limited, even if you profess to be an engineer!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 3,111]

>I am totally aware and I'm sure Dr. Stven Jones is also aware that
>aluminium is capable of glowing orange, but not until it is heated
>significantly above its melting point.

Depends on the alloy. And yes, they will all glow at 800C.

>The photos you are providing and the journals you provide are bogus.

Nope. As has been pointed out, and has been proven experimentally, some alloys (including pure aluminum) do indeed glow at their melting point.

>Why not show an experiment where molten aluminium is allowed to
>fall through the air?

Sure! Try the following:

Heat some aluminum alloy to 800C. Mix in some plastic. Then drop it through the air. What would you expect to see?

We've proven that you'd expect to see a glowing mass falling through the air. Which, coincidentally, is what people saw.

But feel free to do the experiment yourself and see if you get the same result.

[sundevil777 102]

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I would like to be proven wrong

I don't believe you.

Your are severely skeptical of only one side of this argument.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I am sorry you are unwilling to believe in the laws of physics that have been demonstrated untold times through the ages.
Any engineer or physicist...ANY....would be surprised if a molten mass of aluminum with organic materials mixed in didn't appear as it did in the pics of the tower shortly before collapse.
So two photos were accidently included. Toss 'em out and explain the rest of them. Several people here are trying to help you understand that aluminum does indeed glow varying colors but you refuse to accept the fact, even though it is basic, and I mean very basic, physics at work. Stuff kids too young to drive study in high school and understand very well.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

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:
In Reply To
I would like to be proven wrong

I don't believe you.

Your are severely skeptical of only one side of this argument.

i am highly skeptical of;

mini nukes

missiles with holograms

Reptilian shape-shifting aliens

satans head in the smoke

and any other stupid unfounded theories;

I have included information and many accounts of why I believe what I do, and you all have accepted a stroy that as not ever been confirmed.

building collapses aside, you have nothing to go on than believing 'stroies' that are told to you by your superiors.

Weapons of mass destruction? Lies!

You invaded a country, murdered it's citizens and destroyed it's infrastructure, based on unfounded, blatanty obvious and totally maufactured Lies.

Why should you believe the terrorist stories when they have not even bothered to investigate the facts, evidence and motives behind the attacks?

Who benifited from these lies? YOU? I don't think so, you country is now broke and stuck in a rut!

Are yo more free due to the knee jerk reaction? No you have lost more rights and are in more danger of a terrorist attack.

Have you stopped any terrorism? No you have created much more, terrorism is based on hate, many people hate America, why?

because you are bullies and attack innocent people, kill them, maim them, kill thier wifes, mothers, children, friends, grandparents and entire families.

How does this help the fight against terrorism?

It doesn't, it creates more angry people filled with justified hatred towards your country and makes you less safe than you ever were before.

Do you blame them?

How would you feel if some foreigner came and killed your family, destroyed you neigbourhood, inflicted
excruciating pain on you and laughed about it?

You would want revenge! you would want war.

I know what your answer will likely be;

"They did they attaked us with hijacked airplanes..."

How the fuck do you know?

If someone lies to you, and you find out the lie was purposful and decieving.

Are you inclined to accept their word again in the future?






A

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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i am highly skeptical of;

mini nukes

missiles with holograms

Reptilian shape-shifting aliens

satans head in the smoke

and any other stupid unfounded theories

No, you're not.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

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Depends on the alloy. And yes, they will all glow at 800C.

if a metal starts flowing at 640degrees, why does it stck around to reach a temeperature of 160 degrees more?

Even if it did, once it has flowed across a concrete floor, burning carpet and other office equipment, falls hundreds of feet... why would it still be at this temperature?

You are content to accept this, I am not, it is only a very small anomolie in the debarcle and you have shown you are not receptive to the idea that molten aluminium does not have to be a glowing orange, I have made it clear that I 'know' it can glow that colour.

But you heve decied that , because the temeratures of the fires 'could' have reached 800 degrees that the metal that was plummeting hundred of feet is still that temerature due to hydrocarbon fires in an uncontrolled environment.

That is your choice.

we are not going to achieve anything by continuing this aspect of the story.

If you are so certain that the official story is correct, how are you so certain the suspects are guilty if there has never been an investigation?

And how do you think it is reasonable to never hold an investigation into a crime of this magnitude?

Is it common in the USA to base a conclusion on a couple of unlikely clues?

Is that how your science experiments work also?

Where I come from, someone is innocent until 'proven' guilty, and conclustions are based on experiemnts and evidence... concrete evidence and well executed experiments.
The one real question I have for you in all this, is;

Why do you oppsoe an investigation if you are so sure you have nothing to worry about?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Even if it did, once it has flowed across a concrete floor, burning carpet and other office equipment, falls hundreds of feet... why would it still be at this temperature?

Probably since in this instance the cement floor, carpet, etc. was in the same area and was subjected to the same heat.

It's a shame that you push aside simple physics so that your theory holds true. It is then very ironic to accuse Bill of not knowing how proper experimentation is done.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[yourmomma 0]

I wonder why you are so insistent that the only fuel for these fires were office supplies and jet A. Being that there was a restaurant on the top floor of one of the buildings, would it not be safe to assume that gas lines (which may have been ruptured on impact) existed. How about the probability that a large number of the "offices" were in fact very elegantly constructed with wood's of all sorts and density and carpets constructed of myriad different materials. Not to mention many building materials which are "flame retardant" but when ignited burn at higher temps than non flame retardant materials. It seems it was hardly just pens, paper, computers, and desks to burn.

[billvon 3,111]

>if a metal starts flowing at 640degrees, why does it stck around
>to reach a temeperature of 160 degrees more?

Because things need impetus to move, not to stand still. Why does molten ice (water) stay in a puddle on your street instead of flowing downhill to the ocean?

Answer that and you will have the answer to why metal doesn't instantly exit a fire when it melts.

>it is only a very small anomolie in the debarcle and you have shown
>you are not receptive to the idea that molten aluminium does not
>have to be a glowing orange . . .

Of course it doesn't have to be. I merely demonstrated that it CAN be - something you seem to be denying with all your might.

>But you heve decied that , because the temeratures of the fires
>'could' have reached 800 degrees that the metal that was
>plummeting hundred of feet is still that temerature due to
>hydrocarbon fires in an uncontrolled environment.

Again, I do not claim that. I merely claim that a stream of molten metal and burning plastic, in a temperature easily reached in hydrocarbon fires, CAN look like that. Again, you have typed thousands of words trying to deny that - even when experiments prove you wrong.

>Where I come from, someone is innocent until 'proven' guilty, and
>conclustions are based on experiemnts and evidence, concrete
>evidence and well executed experiments.

Agreed. Such experiments have been done, and have demonstrated that the conclusion is consistent with the evidence. Screaming as loudly as you can, and using as many insults as possible, will not change that.

[rhys 0]

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Any engineer or physicist...ANY....would be surprised if a molten mass of aluminum with organic materials mixed in didn't appear as it did in the pics of the tower shortly before collapse.

So the 970 plus engineers and architects that have signed a petition, and believe nano therite was used, are not engineers or architects in you opinion?

The scientists that have written peer reviewed journals relating to this matter are not scientists?

Explain?

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So two photos were accidently included. Toss 'em out and explain the rest of them.

By accident?, they are photos from a book clearly about melting iron. They were deliberatly published to defame Dr. Stephen Jones.

The rest of them are furnices, controlled enviroments and are designed to sustain immense heat. all of these explanations have been linked for your information ealier but once again you simply ignores them.

The WTC was a building made of concrete and steel designed to hold people an office equipment.

They are explained in this journal but you don't understand it, or refuse to read or comment on it and continue to ignore what I am saying.


"I KNOW ALUMINIUM CAN GLOW BRIGHT ORANGE IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT AND ONLY AT A MUCH GREATER TEMPERATURE THAN MELTING POINT ALUMINIUM IS SILVER WHEN MELTED AN FLOWS EASILY WHEN STILL A SILVER GREY COLOUR"



DID yo get that I'll repeat it in case you are a speed reader that accidentily missed stuff!


"I KNOW ALUMINIUM CAN GLOW BRIGHT ORANGE IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT AND ONLY AT A MUCH GREATER TEMPERATURE THAN MELTING POINT ALUMINIUM IS SILVER WHEN MELTED AN FLOWS EASILY WHEN STILL A SILVER GREY COLOUR"




Several people here are trying to help you understand that aluminum does indeed glow varying colors but you refuse to accept the fact, even though it is basic, and I mean very basic, physics at work. Stuff kids too young to drive study in high school and understand very well.

See above, as I explained earlier, I have melted aluminium many times and casted it into differnt shapes.

It was never orange because I had no reason to heat it that much, it flows nicely when it is still silver.

I 'KNOW IT CAN BE ORANGE' I said that but you refuse to acknowledge that

Here is aluminium heated to 1800 degrees show in a video, that is 1000 degrees hotter than what bill is saying was the temperature of the fires.

What colour is it once it touches a colder surface?

silver.

Notice the aluminium still attached to the near white hot recepticle is also silver in colour.

Here is the NIST team trying to experiment with organic matter and molten aluminium in daylight.



Now we have discussed our thoughts on the colour of aluminium, lets consider what NIST said,

***NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.
Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

so you have all beeen arguing that the aluminium was at 800 degrees, and was glowing orange, when NIST claimed it was the organic matter that was glowing.

Why do you spend so much time arguing an irellevant point?

I could have pointed this out to you before but I wanted to point out how your own conclusions are differetn to the NIST's.

[/laugh]

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

Quote

here is the coverof the book by the same author

metal casting: a sand casting manual for the small foundry vol 2

Now let me be clear to all of you guys that this photo (metal casting: a sand casting manual for the small foundry vol 2) is an example of what I have withnessed many times when I have been casting aluminium, I was a jeweller and sculptor when I immediately left school and was so for a period of 5 years, I melted metal on a regular basis with an oxy acetylene plant.

It is the observations I made while doing this that have allowed me to understand what molten metal should look like.
I am totally aware and I'm sure Dr. Stven Jones is also aware that aluminium is capable of glowing orange, but not until it is heated significantly above its melting point.

The photos you are providing and the journals you provide are bogus.

You are 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

Why not show an experiment where molten aluminium is allowed to fall through the air?

How is a smoke filled oxygen starved office fire akin to a furnace?

it is not!

the Link does not work in that post,

This link is working for those that are interested.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix