revisiting 911 truth in the Obama days...

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Backing your claims with links to truther sites is another way of saying "Of course it's the truth...just ask me."
Now, for the third time, do you care to address the molten aluminum question, or can we take your silence on the matter to be a concession?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

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Either these people are criminal masterminds, or they are totally incompetent. Which is it?

Like i said, i don't want to speculate, i just want a crminal investigation.

The data is what is considered official.

There is more than enough evidence to indicate an investigation is needed to determine what happened.

do you oppose another investigation? and if you do, why do you oppsoe it?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[kelpdiver 2]

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Either these people are criminal masterminds, or they are totally incompetent. Which is it?

Like i said, i don't want to speculate, i just want a crminal investigation.

I don't think you understand what a "criminal investigation" is.

And no matter how many of these take place, you'll still want more.

[DanG 1]

I oppose another investigation into 9-11 for the same reason I oppose another investigation into the JFK assassination, the moon landings, and Area 51.

It is a waste of time and money, and it is highly unlikely that the results would differ from the results of the first investigation.

- Dan G

[rhys 0]

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Backing your claims with links to truther sites is another way of saying "Of course it's the truth...just ask me."

you dismiss the information based on its source?

you are saying that "if someone wants an new investigation, they are wrong" you are saying anyone that thinks differently to me is wrong"

try refuting its contents and not 'judging a book by its cover'.

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Now, for the third time, do you care to address the molten aluminum question, or can we take your silence on the matter to be a concession?

Yes I would care to address it, I asked if you believe that moulten aluminium will continue to glow orange while falling hundreds of feet through the New York morning air, and if it will freely mix with organic matter to obtain this colour.'

I may have missed your reponse, but do not recall seeing it, what is your response?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[jakee 1,594]

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I don't know, you know why?

there is not enough evidence to believe any of the, stories.

Then who's lying?

What happens if you believe the missile theory? Are you going to call all the people that the CIT talked to liars? After all, they were there, you weren't.

What if you believe the CIT's decoy aircraft/ pre-planted bomb theory? Are you going to call all the people who saw a missile liars? After all, they were there, you weren't.

See the problem with your form of argument there?

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You may believe in evaporating aircraft, I do not.

Then why did you post that article by the CIT? Where did the plane go?

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But the people they spoke to said they saw the aircrafty approach from the north, and the story you believe, says it approached from the south?

how can you be correct as well as them?

That's what the CIT say they said, but if that's all we have to go on...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rhys 0]

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Then who's lying?

What happens if you believe the missile theory? Are you going to call all the people that the CIT talked to liars? After all, they were there, you weren't.

What if you believe the CIT's decoy aircraft/ pre-planted bomb theory? Are you going to call all the people who saw a missile liars? After all, they were there, you weren't.

See the problem with your form of argument there?

my argument for wanting a crimianl investigation? no

why?

I don't claim to know what happened that day, you do.

I would like to know. how is that an unreasonable argument?

you think oyu know what i think and want but quite clearly can't get you head around the fact that i don't claim to know what hapened there, you don't and ontly the perpertrators know.

Again, how is wanting a legitemeate, transparent investigation unreasonable?

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Then why did you post that article by the CIT?

To show you that not all truthers think a missile hit the pentagon. and there is more than two possibilities.

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Where did the plane go?

How can you reasonably expect to think that I could ansWer that question?

That question is stupid!

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That's what the CIT say they said, but if that's all we have to go on...

the witnesses said what they said, i don't necessarily believe the CIT hypotheses, and it is speculation to say they were or were not telling the truth.

what I don't beieve is that a passenger jet hit the pentaon that day, the reason, there is not enough visual evidence to suggest so.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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I oppose another investigation into 9-11 for the same reason I oppose another investigation into the JFK assassination, the moon landings, and Area 51.

It is a waste of time and money, and it is highly unlikely that the results would differ from the results of the first investigation.

Are you suggesting there was in fact a criminal investigation?, I'm not talking about a building performance report, but a criminal investigation.

As far as I am aware this was never done and the 'war on terror' was based on assumtion not fact.

so tell me again how it wouldbe a waste of money?

Abd if in fact an investigation has been done, would you please link some details for me/us to view?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[kelpdiver 2]

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To show you that not all truthers think a missile hit the pentagon. and there is more than two possibilities.

Indeed. You have what actually happened, and then dozens of fantasies.

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Where did the plane go?

How can you reasonably expect to think that I could ansWer that question?

That question is stupid!

Well, you have a missing plane of passengers, a hole in the building, and airplane debris on the ground. If in fact this isn't an airplane crash, where the airplane went is a pretty key question. Without an answer to it, it's hard to challenge the accounting of what happened.

well, not for you, of course.

[SpeedRacer 1]

The plane of passengers was flown to Area 51, of course.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[DanG 1]

I never said there was a "criminal" investigation. There clearly was an investigation, since you've spend 17 pages of posts trying to convince us it was no good.

What, in your mind, makes a "criminal" investigtion different?

- Dan G

[rhys 0]

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I never said there was a "criminal" investigation. There clearly was an investigation, since you've spend 17 pages of posts trying to convince us it was no good.

What, in your mind, makes a "criminal" investigtion different?

A building performance report/nist report simply states the mechanics of how the building came to collapse.

A criminl investigation would determine who was responsable.

If i started waving my hands and saying "i did it' would that make me responsable?

The US economy has spent many billions of dollars with a knee jerk reaction "war on terror' and you oppose an investigation to clarify who was responsable in the first place?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 3,111]

>Considering the the data clearly says FLT DECK DOOR and has the relevant data with it . . .

You are not seeing the data; the actual data would be a lot of 1's and 0's organized into data frames. You are seeing the data as interpreted by a Boeing interpretation program. This program reports everything that could possibly be reported by any FDR in their fleet. If a data parameter is not used by the particular FDR it is reported as inactive.

The flight data recorder itself (which Boeing calls a DFDAU) is described by Boeing document D226A101-3 rev G. It specifies all the connections between the DFDAU and the aircraft, including things like flap handle position (analog input) and TCAS on/off switch (diigtal input.) It does not include a cockpit door indication. Thus, any interpreter program that expects a cockpit door indication, but is fed data from a DFDAU that does not support this sensor, will read inactive (closed.)

If you would like to read the spec for yourself, it's here:

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id4067718242.html

Check it out. No cockpit door sensor.

If you still don't believe me, take a look at the entire data stream. See if it ever says "door open" - including before takeoff. Indeed, the data stream I saw included the previous 12 flights. The data never indicated an open door, ever. I doubt one crew flew them all without ever eating or peeing.

FDR myth - busted.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Backing your claims with links to truther sites is another way of saying "Of course it's the truth...just ask me."

you dismiss the information based on its source?
When that source is as biased as the ones you posted, yes.
you are saying that "if someone wants an new investigation, they are wrong" you are saying anyone that thinks differently to me is wrong"
I never said that, but when there is NO REASONABLE EVIDENCE for a new investigation than it is pointless to have one.

try refuting its contents and not 'judging a book by its cover'.

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Now, for the third time, do you care to address the molten aluminum question, or can we take your silence on the matter to be a concession?

Yes I would care to address it, I asked if you believe that moulten aluminium will continue to glow orange while falling hundreds of feet through the New York morning air, and if it will freely mix with organic matter to obtain this colour.'

I may have missed your reponse, but do not recall seeing it, what is your response?

Yes, it will continue to "glow" orange, red, and shades thereof. Yes, it will freely mix with organic materials but they do not substantially affect the color. That is mostly a product of the temperature.

If you like I can recommend a basic physics textbook that explains it very well.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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>Considering the the data clearly says FLT DECK DOOR and has the relevant data with it . . .

You are not seeing the data; the actual data would be a lot of 1's and 0's organized into data frames. You are seeing the data as interpreted by a Boeing interpretation program. This program reports everything that could possibly be reported by any FDR in their fleet. If a data parameter is not used by the particular FDR it is reported as inactive.

The flight data recorder itself (which Boeing calls a DFDAU) is described by Boeing document D226A101-3 rev G. It specifies all the connections between the DFDAU and the aircraft, including things like flap handle position (analog input) and TCAS on/off switch (diigtal input.) It does not include a cockpit door indication. Thus, any interpreter program that expects a cockpit door indication, but is fed data from a DFDAU that does not support this sensor, will read inactive (closed.)

If you would like to read the spec for yourself, it's here:

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id4067718242.html

Check it out. No cockpit door sensor.

If you still don't believe me, take a look at the entire data stream. See if it ever says "door open" - including before takeoff. Indeed, the data stream I saw included the previous 12 flights. The data never indicated an open door, ever. I doubt one crew flew them all without ever eating or peeing.

FDR myth - busted.

Good job, Bill.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kelpdiver 2]

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A building performance report/nist report simply states the mechanics of how the building came to collapse.

A criminl investigation would determine who was responsable.

What if we made it a blue ribbon, criminal investigation?

[rhys 0]

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The flight data recorder itself (which Boeing calls a DFDAU) is described by Boeing document D226A101-3 rev G. It specifies all the connections between the DFDAU and the aircraft, including things like flap handle position (analog input) and TCAS on/off switch (diigtal input.) It does not include a cockpit door indication. Thus, any interpreter program that expects a cockpit door indication, but is fed data from a DFDAU that does not support this sensor, will read inactive (closed.)

O.K. thanks for that, i'll look into it some more to determine my thoughts. I'll also aske the publishers of the atricle what thier thoughts on your statement/findings may be.

This is intellegent conversation and goes some way towards a conclusive decsion, al long way off but movements in the right direction.

if only the others in here could be as rational with their replies, we might actually have a debate.

Thanks again, i'll report back with any findings.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 3,111]

> I asked if you believe that moulten aluminium will continue to glow
>orange while falling hundreds of feet through the New York morning
>air

Depends on the temperature of the metal, of course. Metal begins to have a daylight-visible glow at around 500C. Pure aluminum melts at around 660C. Temperatures in the fire reached at least around 800C.

So the question is - how long would it take for molten metal to cool by 300C? That's a large amount of heat to be dissipated by the air, which is a notoriously bad heat conductor. 10C a second would be a pretty rapid rate for a large chunk of (formerly) molten metal.

>and if it will freely mix with organic matter to obtain this colour.

If organic material is added in a low-oxygen environment, then it will mix to some degree depending on its melting point, chemical composition etc. (And there were likely areas of low-oxygen combustion based on the amount of black smoke produced.) If it then enters an oxygen rich environment (i.e. the "New York morning air") then it will burn, often brightly. This BTW is basically the Bessemer Process, the process by which steel is made nowadays; it results in some pretty spectacular fireworks. (It doesn't work on aluminum which oxidizes too readily at high temperatures.)

[rhys 0]

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10C a second would be a pretty rapid rate for a large chunk of (formerly) molten metal.

and a small chunk?

falling through the air, like in the photo attached to this post.

would you find it reasonable to assume aluminium would behave in this manner?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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10C a second would be a pretty rapid rate for a large chunk of (formerly) molten metal.

and a small chunk?

falling through the air, like in the photo attached to this post.

would you find it reasonable to assume aluminium would behave in this manner?

Yes.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 3,111]

>and a small chunk?

Large chunks of aluminum will tend to glow for a long time. Smaller chunks will tend to glow for a much shorter time. If organics are mixed into the material they will tend to burn as the material hits the air

>would you find it reasonable to assume aluminium would behave in
>this manner?

Yes, I'd expect an 800C stream of molten aluminum mixed with organic trash to look like a shower of glowing stuff.

[Amazon 7]

"You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the sign post up ahead, your next stop...The Twilight Zone!"

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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"You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the sign post up ahead, your next stop...The Twilight Zone!"

Music, please.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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"You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the sign post up ahead, your next stop...The Twilight Zone!"

Music, please.

YouTube

You're welcome

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rhys 0]

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Yes, I'd expect an 800C stream of molten aluminum mixed with organic trash to look like a shower of glowing stuff.

wow, the fires reached "at least" 800 degrees, so aluminium that has fallen hundreds of feet in a shower through cool morning air would still be 800 degrees?

you really are stretching your imagination there Bill.

Let me tell you, aluminium remains silver well after it melts, you have to increase the heat significantly to produce a glowing orange of that shade, keeping it that hot while falling hundreds of feet?

well, you decide!

You seem quite content with your thoughts and observations so i'll leave you with them.

Attached is a photo of molten aluminiun just to refresh you memory.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix