revisiting 911 truth in the Obama days...

[billvon 3,090]

>Your attempts to belittle millions of other people with opposing thoughts
>to yours . . .

Why not just say "billions?" Just as accurate and sounds far more impressive.

>I would expect more form a moderator of a forum dedicated to
>'heated' discussions with opposing points of view.

Dude, this forum is a political forum on a skydiving board, intended as a place to put all the arguments that get most of the posters on this board pissed off. If it is not fun for you, for god's sakes, do something you like. If you really think you're 'bravely helping uncover an evil plot' or something, you are sadly mistaken.

I usually enjoy your posts; they're entertaining. If that bugs you, then perhaps you'd be happier on a board dedicated to 9/11 conspiracy theories, where you'd likely be taken far more seriously.

>The term, 'don't feed the trolls' is commonplace throughout the internet;
>I thought you would have taken heed of that by now.

It is indeed. But your posts are often entertaining so I reply to them.

[billvon 3,090]

>Do you acknowledge as fact that building 7, actually managed to obtain
>freefall acceleration for ‘an amount of time’ during is collapse, as pointed
>out in the Latest NIST report published on the 20th of November 2008.

No. However, it was likely close to freefall speed due to the nature of the collapse.

>If so, do you consider this an anomaly?

No.

[DanG 1]

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The 9/11 story is either partially or completely manufactured, has been used to Pre-empt wars and also massive government spending to certain private enterprises that are complicit with the corruption.

Simple question. I would love a one word answer, but realize I probably won't get it.

Here it is: Did passenger planes impact both the North and South Towers of the World Trade Center on 9-11-01?

- Dan G

[champu 1]

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This is why I made the thread 'those pesky fires'. But I bumped this one as it has the most information and links of any I can remember.

Oh my, what bold-faced nonsense.

The creation of new threads and bumping of the most convoluted ones available coincident with the abandonment of threads that aren't going well has been the MO of theorists all along. The reason one coherent thread cannot exist is that there is no one coherent conspiracy theory any more (if there ever was one.)

Theorists latch on to something, make an incorrect claim about physics or misstate some piece of information, and assert that means there's "something wrong with the official story." When problems with these claims or misstatements are brought up, the conversation is steered towards an increasingly irrelevant detail of whatever it is they've latched onto and the importance of the detail and their inability to find information about it is played up as much as possible. If too many questions are brought up about what the ongoing argument means for the overall conspiracy and/or if the irrelevant detail trend terminates on something that favors the opposition the thread is retired.

It doesn't matter if the thread goes off talking about air phones or gas station cameras, or debris plumes, or slag on columns, it's always the same. There's so little entropy in all this that I have half a mind to subject you to a Turing test before replying to you again.

[pirana 0]

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Still waiting for evidence of what the truthers claim. None provided yet.

waiting will get you nowhere, let me give you a hint, you won't find it on fox news or in the new york times...

If you want to be free, you do your own research. If you still fail to find what you want, you are avoiding the truth.

There is a differnece between avoiding and not finding!

I think the responsibility for showing evidence falls on the people making the extraordinary claims. A person making such outrageous claims as the truthers bears some burden for showing what is behind their claims (other than paranoia and distrust).

All of the claims have been thoroughly exposed as either lack of understading basic physics or outright hoaxes.

What have you got? Anything specific and new; anything other than the same old paranoid ramblings?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rhys 0]

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Why not just say "billions?" Just as accurate and sounds far more impressive.

So you are saying you don't believe there are millions of Truthers?



I suppose you also believe we are a very small minority.

Think again.

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If you really think you're 'bravely helping uncover an evil plot' or something, you are sadly mistaken.

Where is the science in that argument Bill, You cannot simply state these things without evidence to back it up. There is plenty of corruption in this world, our nature is that way, denying it and letting it ride is irresponsible.

I suppose you have never come across a situation where someone in power has abused their position for personal gain, never?

Use you head Bill, you are in a dream world if you think financial gain is and was not a motive for these pre-empted wars.

And I have plenty of fun feeding the chickens.

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I usually enjoy your posts; they're entertaining. If that bugs you, then perhaps you'd be happier on a board dedicated to 9/11 conspiracy theories, where you'd likely be taken far more seriously.

There are boards dedicated to it, many of them, I also participate in them also. Some stuff is irrelevant and not worth much at all but most of it, and increasingly these days is well drafted, well thought out and complete. Scientifically, non judgmentally written.

You guys have not seen much or any of that, as you think you are going to a whack job website by doing so. You have fallen for the intentional propaganda.

The joke is on you, and Truthers are in the millions, there are 10's of millions in the USA alone that will vote for a new investigation.

Some more proactive than others, but once again it is obvious that you are kidding yourself and also not being honest with yourself or any of us.

Don't worry this will come to rest one day, and for the rest of your life you will have to live with the fact that you find treason, murder and the suffering of millions of people humorous.

That is your prerogative. Seeking the truth is mine.

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>The term, 'don't feed the trolls' is commonplace throughout the internet;
>I thought you would have taken heed of that by now.

It is indeed. But your posts are often entertaining so I reply to them.

So feeding the trolls is O.k. if you do it?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 3,090]

>Where is the science in that argument Bill.

It's not a science argument. It's a statement that your opinion here on Speaker's Corner doesn't matter. (Neither does anyone else's.) It's like getting all bent out of shape that no one in a noisy bar on a Friday night will take your pamphlets on how the end of the world is near. It's not an argument that the world isn't going to end - it's an argument that no one in that noisy bar really cares.

If it entertains you to post here, by all means, post here. If you really want to make a difference, get an engineering degree, go to grad school and write a few papers on building collapse.

>Some stuff is irrelevant and not worth much at all but most of it, and
>increasingly these days is well drafted, well thought out and complete.
>Scientifically, non judgmentally written.

Yep - and generally irrelevant. Like the climate change deniers, the moon landing hoaxers and the JFK conspiracy theorists, there are plenty of ways to find fault with the data. None of those faults means "it didn't happen."

>I suppose you have never come across a situation where someone in
>power has abused their position for personal gain, never?

All the time. Has it ever occurred to you that the truthers have as much at stake as anyone else, and that maintaining their position of power for personal gain is just as important to them?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Has it ever occurred to you that the truthers have as much at stake as anyone else, and that maintaining their position of power for personal gain is just as important to them?

Bill, are you insinuating that there are people who would start a 911 Truther website and group just to spread propaganda and get a bunch of sheep to be their followers??
Blasphemy! Shun the non-believer! Shun! Shun!

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The joke is on you, and Truthers are in the millions, there are 10's of millions in the USA alone that will vote for a new investigation.

10s of millions vote to block gay marriage and would gladly do so to stop the teaching of evolution.

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So feeding the trolls is O.k. if you do it?

In this sub thread, it seems like you're calling yourself a troll. ??

[Amazon 7]

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The joke is on you, and Truthers are in the millions, there are 10's of millions in the USA alone that will vote for a new investigation.

10s of millions vote to block gay marriage and would gladly do so to stop the teaching of evolution.

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So feeding the trolls is O.k. if you do it?

In this sub thread, it seems like you're calling yourself a troll. ??

Self-realization can lead to awareness and consciousness, but in this case will not lead to enlightenment

[jakee 1,578]

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To pathetic attacks on a vast number of people that have a plethora of viable concerns pertaining to their own personal suffering and loss of family is no laughing matter.

Really?

How many people who actually lost close family members on 9/11 are members of your little gangs?

How many people who's partners died in the towers think they were brought down by anything other than hijacked aircraft?

How many people who's relatives were onboard Flight 77 think that it was vanished by the Government above the washington beltway?

How many who's families were on Flight 93 think that crater in Pennsylvania was just a manufactured part of the cover up?

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Your attempts to belittle millions of other people with opposing thoughts to yours

"Lemmings... scared... deniers... brainwashed... arrogance... ignorance... wank myself over my gun... trolls... chickens... instinctively without thought... fallen for... joke is on you... chickens (again)"

My my, it has been a busy few days for you!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rhys 0]

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...It's not an argument that the world isn't going to end - it's an argument that no one in that noisy bar really cares.

If it entertains you to post here, by all means, post here. If you really want to make a difference, get an engineering degree, go to grad school and write a few papers on building collapse.

I m not trying to making a difference to you and I don't claim to be the one that is making the difference.

I just find it interesting and wish to learn more about it.

As much as I may not agree with many of you, your standpoint is very valuable in being honest with myself about what I believe in.

I could care less what anyone thinks of me, and am willing to go out on a limb to discover what I wish to learn.

Happiness for me comes from knowing I have done the right thing, unfortunately not everybody thinks like that.

The silly names and ostracising techniques help give me energy and help me refrain from apathy.

Apathy and/or conforming is the easy option, not the right option.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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All the time. Has it ever occurred to you that the truthers have as much at stake as anyone else, and that maintaining their position of power for personal gain is just as important to them?

It has occurred to me plenty of times, especially when you, mike and the other hard core deniers state that that is the motive behind movies such as fahrenheit 9/11, loose change etc. This stuff i consider every time I look at any subject matter.

These people would not have such a following without the concerns they have being feasible, and in line with what we witnessed. There is plenty of evidence and subject matter to discuss.

You are so sure of the NIST report being the most likely scenario, yet you argued that freefall did not happen during the collapses, most of you did prior to last year, but since NIST were forced to include freefall acceleration of building 7 for at least 2.5 seconds in their hypothesis, all due to the investigations of a high school teacher and his question posed (publicly) to them.

All of a sudden there ‘is’ freefall and neither you nor your comrades have even stopped to consider the ramifications of that simple inclusion.

You avoided answering my question about this as you 'know’ you argued to the contrary earlier in the debate, (like 4 years ago!) before the NIST changed their hypothesis, and you have to ‘stick to your guns’ to protect you integrity.

You have been duped, it is obvious and you are in denial!

You agreed you see corruption "all the time", why would the American government be any less likely to experience this phenomenon?

As they say; absolute power corrupts, absolutely

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[philh 0]

Perhaps you could give me a reasonable asnwer to the question I asked you originally in this thread. If the 9/11 was planned by the US governemtn to justify war in Iraq why didnt they put at least one IRaqi on the planes? Why didnt they fake some evidence connecting it to IRaq? Why did they admit there was no evidence linking 9/11 to Iraq? Youd think if they were prepared to kill thousands of their own voters they would be at least able to do this?

[jakee 1,578]

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These people would not have such a following without the concerns they have being feasible,

No.

They don't need to be feasible, they just need to sound feasible.

That is an extremely big difference.

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and in line with what we witnessed.

You don't have even the slightest baseline of knowledge neccessary to interpret what it is you witnessed.

You've said before that you thought it was a controlled demolition as soon as you saw the towers go down. Why? You don't know what a controlled demolition would look like, you don't know what a collapse due to impact and fire should look like. You are not equipped to make a judgement about what is in line with what you witnessed.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,090]

>I m not trying to making a difference to you . . .
>I just find it interesting and wish to learn more about it.

Then why all the angry name-calling and vitriol?

>You are so sure of the NIST report being the most likely scenario . . .

Nope.

>yet you argued that freefall did not happen during the collapses, most of
>you did prior to last year,

Yes, I did. Nothing falls at freefall speeds in an atmosphere unless it has a rocket on it. However, put enough weight behind it and it can come close.

>All of a sudden there ‘is’ freefall and neither you nor your comrades . . .

Which "comrades" would those be? Unlike yourself I do not have websites and positions to conform to.

>You agreed you see corruption "all the time", why would the American
>government be any less likely to experience this phenomenon?

They're not, and anyone here could give examples of corruption in government. Corruption is an emergent characteristic of any large organization, from the US government to Enron to the Truther movement.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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All the time. Has it ever occurred to you that the truthers have as much at stake as anyone else, and that maintaining their position of power for personal gain is just as important to them?

It has occurred to me plenty of times, especially when you, mike and the other hard core deniers state that that is the motive behind movies such as fahrenheit 9/11, loose change etc. This stuff i consider every time I look at any subject matter.

These people would not have such a following without the concerns they have being feasible, and in line with what we witnessed. There is plenty of evidence and subject matter to discuss.

You are so sure of the NIST report being the most likely scenario, yet you argued that freefall did not happen during the collapses, most of you did prior to last year, but since NIST were forced to include freefall acceleration of building 7 for at least 2.5 seconds in their hypothesis, all due to the investigations of a high school teacher and his question posed (publicly) to them.

All of a sudden there ‘is’ freefall and neither you nor your comrades have even stopped to consider the ramifications of that simple inclusion.

You avoided answering my question about this as you 'know’ you argued to the contrary earlier in the debate, (like 4 years ago!) before the NIST changed their hypothesis, and you have to ‘stick to your guns’ to protect you integrity.

You have been duped, it is obvious and you are in denial!

You agreed you see corruption "all the time", why would the American government be any less likely to experience this phenomenon?

As they say; absolute power corrupts, absolutely

Yet two facts remain:
1) Your opinions are based on supposition and fantasy.
2) Bill's opinions are based on scientific principles.

Your "facts" have been discredited many times, yet you base your entire argument on them.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhys 0]

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Then why all the angry name-calling and vitriol?

Human nature, poke a guy in the shoulder and he's likely to arc up.

Simple, you get over these things, murder and treason you do not.
My integrity is questioned simply because I have the audacity to question the authorities; this comes with name calling and similar tactic to coerce me to conform.

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Yes, I did. Nothing falls at freefall speeds in an atmosphere unless it has a rocket on it. However, put enough weight behind it and it can come close.

so you don't consider it an anomaly that building 7 that apparently collapsed due to fire was able to reach virtual free fall speed?

If you don't consider this an anomaly, can you point out to me where the precedent for this has been set in the past.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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My integrity is questioned simply because I have the audacity to question the authorities...

No, it is questioned because you believe a bunch of BS from self-proclaimed "experts".

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[billvon 3,090]

>My integrity is questioned simply because I have the audacity to question
>the authorities . . .

More than half the people here "question the authorities." You're not special in that regard.

> this comes with name calling and similar tactic to coerce me to conform.

You seem to do most of the name-calling in any 9/11 thread - and become very upset when people do not conform to your worldview.

>so you don't consider it an anomaly that building 7 that apparently
>collapsed due to fire was able to reach virtual free fall speed?

1) It collapsed both due to fire and to having two 1700-foot tall buildings collapsed and drop debris on it

2) It collapsed over 9 seconds. Freefall from571 feet would take less than 6 seconds.

3) It would not surprise me at all to find out that at some point during the collapse, when the supporting structure had been destroyed first by debris impacts, then fires, then impact from the floors above, that the collapse momentarily reached near-freefall speeds.

>If you don't consider this an anomaly, can you point out to me where
>the precedent for this has been set in the past.

Nope. No 1700 foot building has ever been hit by a jetliner, collapsed, rained debris onto a lower 571 foot building, then had the smaller building catch fire and collapse before.

Do you have an example where the above happened, and then the building collapsed in slow motion like you believe it should?

[jakee 1,578]

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Human nature, poke a guy in the shoulder and he's likely to arc up... this comes with name calling and similar tactic to coerce me to conform.

Oh, right. So when you call people brainwashed sheep morons it's just human nature, but when other people call you names it's sinister coersion?

Get a fucking grip.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rhys 0]

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No, it is questioned because you believe a bunch of BS from self-proclaimed "experts".

You are supposed to be an engineer, yet all your arguments are simply attacks on those that at least have the knowledge and integrity to present their argument in a scientific and professional manner. Your lack of respect and judgmental opinion is completely unprofessional and unscientific, yet you have the audacity to criticise these hard working and respectable professionals. If you had integrity, you would at least be able to argue you point without insulting people.

You seem to find some sort of satisfaction out of these insults, quite shallow really.

I won't even bother discussing it with you anymore, unless that is you can present your argument in a reasonable manner.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[piisfish 140]

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I just want him to explain how debris from the top of the towers hit the ground long before the building finished collapsing...at free-fall speed.

because the main part of the building had bodies inside to slow it down.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mnealtx 0]

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Your lack of respect and judgmental opinion is completely unprofessional and unscientific, yet you have the audacity to criticise these hard working and respectable professionals. If you had integrity, you would at least be able to argue you point without insulting people.

Kettle, meet pot.

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You seem to find some sort of satisfaction out of these insults, quite shallow really.

I won't even bother discussing it with you anymore, unless that is you can present your argument in a reasonable manner.

Are you going to hold YOURSELF to that standard, as well?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I, as well as most others, have answered your questions MANY times over. You have refused to accept our answers.
You, on the other hand, evade answering. For example, how debris from the top of the towers hit the ground long before the building finished collapsing...at free-fall speed. I have asked you that question at least four times and you have yet to even make an attempt at supplying an explanation. You insist the buildings fell at "free-fall speed", yet the evidence shows otherwise.
You even post ridiculous "evidence", such as the column you and others claim was proof of thermite but if you had bothered checking you would find out it was one of many that were cut with a torch post-collapse during cleanup.
Like i said, I have the laws of physics and nature on my side. You don't

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.