affirmative action

[nerdgirl 0]

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no it isn't a good thing. its racism/sexism. just because its against white males doesn't make it ok.

Concur.

Is continued perpetuation of negative discrimination against minorities and women okay, tho’?

There’s the crux that I see … others will see differently, of course. And, honestly, my response is less directed toward you specifically than more generally because you concisely noted half the issue, imo.

The hole in the argument of some arguing forcefully against affirmative action, as I see it, is that the arguments fail to acknowledge negative discrimination against minorities and women persists. While no longer legally permissible (almost completely) and much, much, much less prominent than even 25 years ago, negative discrimination against minorities and women persist. To pretend otherwise is akin pretending skydiving can’t kill you. It’s not about looking for it, either.

One personal example posted here three years ago.

Less anecdotally:

Measuring Racial Discrimination

Market Forces and Sex Discrimination

The Color of Credit: Mortgage Discrimination, Research Methodology, and Fair-lending Enforcement

Employers’ Discriminatory Behavior and the Estimation of Wage Discrimination

Trait-based and sex-based discrimination in occupational prestige, occupational salary, and hiring

Pervasive Prejudice?: Unconventional Evidence of Race and Gender Discrimination

Department of Defense Annual Report on Sexual Harassment and Violence at the U.S. Military Service Academies: Academic Program Year 2006-2007

Racial harassment, job satisfaction and intentions to remain in the military … (that data, published on 2008, reports that “two thirds of [minority] active-duty military personnel report experiencing offensive racial behaviors in the previous 12 months, whereas approximately one in ten reports threatening racial incidents or career-related discrimination. Furthermore, threatening racial incidents and career-related discrimination heighten intentions to leave the military.” Forget a justice or “fairness” argument, from a fiscal perspective losing one highly trained soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine because of racism is expensive!


Stubbornly refusing to admit/acknowledge residual racism & sexism persist is like Pres Clinton and the definition of “is.” One can’t pretend negative discrimination against minorities and women doesn’t exist with any more credibly than he could pretend fellatio wasn’t sex. Of course, you (him and a more general “you”) may try.


Thomas Barnett made one of the strongest arguments, imo, for decreasing discrimination against women in Blue Print for Action, the follow-up to _The Pentagon’s New Map_: “You want to decrease terrorism? Educate girls” (p. 256-257). In order to integrate into the functioning core of the world, the non-integrating states need to recognize the value of half of their human capital. If half of a nation’s population is unable to work to their full potential and contribute to the economy because of pervasive and tacit limitations/discrimination, that country looses. Phenomenon has been observed directly: The role of women in economic miracles. As the market becomes more globalized and competitive, tacit negative discrimination against women and minorities is going to disadvantage the US. Sadly, I suspect it had to be a man, Barnett, making the argument … because reality (regardless of the way I would like the world to work) is that a man making the argument is stronger than 100 women making the argument. Someday that may not be so.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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And in the real world, what happens is that UNqualified people are hired to fill the quotas and the rest of the shop has to carry the dead weight.

That perhaps, unintentionally, highlighted why I am opposed to affirmative action – because it is used as an excuse to question the qualifications of those who aren’t [X]. It’s not quite entirely clear to me who’s ‘carrying’ whose ‘dead weight.’

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Creating a box which makes a lot of generalizations about segments of society only stands to reinforce those prejudices of race or sex.



.... 1) to perpetuate resistance, rather than education, and 2) only reinforces to those in the 'box" that they are of "lesser value" and need regulatory assistance.

While the theory and intent may be good, what we gets in reality is what you describe, imo (green sweater optional … altho’ I’m rather fond of green
It’s in the backlash innuendos and consequences that perpetuate doubt on the capabilities of minorities and women in which I find the crucial argument against affirmative action. (One could speculate that those who are most likely to cast doubt that “he only got there because they needed a minority” or “she was included only because they needed a woman candidate,” are probably the same ones explicitly or tacitly perpetuating the persistent negative discrimination against minorities &/or women?)

--- - --- -- --- - ---


As far as the affirmative action argument, a thread here a few months ago failed to bring forth any (?) affirmative action programs remaining. Public colleges can’t do it. The federal government doesn’t do it in hiring. The State of Georgia doesn’t in hiring. Private organizations & individuals can to some extent, just as private organizations & individuals can discriminate to some extent, e.g., Augusta Golf Club.


As [kbodsen]’s list notes, there are goals *not* mandates, data collection efforts, or, as is stated, efforts “to identify and correct discrimination and harassment in the workplace;” none of that is affirmative action. What it does:

“The Department of Labor's Employment Standards Administration's Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs (OFCCP) enforces the Executive Order 11246, as amended; Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended and the affirmative action provisions (Section 4212) of the Vietnam Era Veterans' Readjustment Assistance Act, as amended. Taken together, these laws ban discrimination and require Federal contractors and subcontractors to take affirmative action to ensure that all individuals have an equal opportunity for employment, without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability or status as a Vietnam era or special disabled veteran.”

The requirements are to enforce non-discrimination laws not enact reverse discrimination.


As a woman in a science field, a physical science field, I remember hearing rumors, derisive allegations, and condescending hearsay about “all the affirmative action programs” for women in science. If someone can find one, please point me toward it. Really! Of course, we’ve probably all heard occasional stories about that “bitch” who got the job because she was a women … apparently that’s one of those remarkable exceptions to the call for personal responsibility. It’s never the guy who didn’t get the job’s fault or bad luck or responsibility … it’s some or some .

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[shropshire 0]

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the germans

O.K. Which one.

Germans too young to have been part of the war and it's atrocities?
Or
The ones that were party to the atrocity?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[shropshire 0]

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Recruit the best for the job now, with no consideration for anything other that the ability to do the job

"The best for the job" is often based on a number of fairly fuzzy criteria, or ones where there aren't clear differentiators. Ability to work with a team, to communicate effectively, to work on a proprietary system that no one else has, to adapt -- these are not always easy to measure exactly and unequivocally. And that's where "I'm more comfortable with that guy" ends up helping the decision-making process.

And hiring white guy managers tend to be comfortable with hiring guys that they are likely to pal around with. The idea is to have managers not include that particular criterion, or else to have a broad enough base of management that one manager's need for comfort is diluted.

Wendy W.

100% agree Wendy. Affirmative Action, on the other hand, is not fuzzy, It's prescriptive... "You will only recruit from this group" for example.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[dreamdancer 0]

these german reparations. should these be paid?

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Despite the protests, the agreement was signed in September of that year, and West Germany paid Israel a sum of 3 billion marks over the next fourteen years; 450 million marks were paid to the World Jewish Congress. The payments were made to the State of Israel as the heir to those victims who had no surviving family. The money was invested in the country's infrastructure and played an important role in establishing the economy of the new state. The reparations would become a decisive part of Israel's income, comprising as high as 87.5% of the state income in 1956.

Yad Vashem noted that "in the 1990s, Jews began making claims for property stolen in Eastern Europe. Various groups also began investigating what happened to money deposited in Swiss banks by Jews outside of Switzerland who were later murdered in the Holocaust, and what happened to money deposited by various Nazis in Swiss banks. In addition, individual companies (many of them based in Germany) began to be pressured by survivor groups to compensate former forced laborers. Among them are Deutsche Bank AG, Siemens AG, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (BMW), Volkswagen AG, and Adam Opel GmbH. In response, early in 1999, the German government proclaimed the establishment of a fund with monies from these companies to help needy Holocaust survivors. A similar fund was set up by the Swiss, as was a Hungarian fund for compensation of Holocaust victims and their heirs. At the close of the 1990s, discussions of compensation by insurance companies that had insured Jews before the war and who were later murdered by the Nazis were held. These companies include Alliance, AXA, Assicurazioni Generali, Zürich Financial Services Group, Winterhur, and Baloise Insurance Group. With the help of information about Holocaust victims made available by Yad Vashem, an international commission under former US Secretary of State, Lawrence Eagleburger, has been trying to uncover the names of those who had been insured and died in the Holocaust.The World Jewish Restitution Organization was created to organize these efforts. On behalf of US citizens, the US Foreign Claims Settlement Commission reached agreements with the German government in 1998 and 1999 to compensate Holocaust victims who immigrated to the US after the war."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[shropshire 0]

That's up to the German people..... But I wouldn't.


The crimes of the father are not the crimes of the son.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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The crimes of the father are not the crimes of the son.

I agree, however I also feel that when the son benefits from the crimes of the father, the son has a moral obligation to help those against whom the crimes were committed.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I want all white guys pulled over and searched.. because they are driving while white...... and they need to take a huge pay cut down to what women are typically paid while doing the same jobs.. where typically they get less than 70% nof a male co-worker... and not get the same promotions at the same rate.

These threads break down quickly when such misleading statements are made.

The oft claimed 70% (or Jerry's 80%) are not for coworkers doing the same job. It's is the average pay. It is a reflection of women biasing towards lower paying job markets, getting degrees in subjects with less commercial application, and the penalty for taking years out of the workforce to bear children. Given biology, the last one may be unfair, but the other two are not. Nor is choosing a more reasonable life/work balance while stupid men work themselves to death on evenings or weekends.

There are no tangible barriers left to women who want to take math and physics or engineering and CS, but what I saw at Cal was a sea of men. I may be super uncle to a lot of young kids, but I'm not giving dolls to any of them.

[shropshire 0]

I can see how some people may think that way but there needs to be a limit .... do we stop and the son, grandson, great-grandson ... etc.... etc...?

Should we expect reparations from the Vikings, ... Did the Germans pay to rebuild London?

Where should (if indeed it should) the line be drawn?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[dreamdancer 0]

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40 acres and a mule is a term for compensation that was promised to be awarded to freed African American slaves after the Civil War— 40 acres (16 ha) of land to farm, and a mule with which to drag a plow so the land could be cultivated.

The award—a land grant of a quarter of a quarter section (160 acres) deeded to heads of households presumably formerly owned by land-holding whites—was the product of Special Field Orders, No. 15, issued January 16, 1865 by Maj. Gen. William T. Sherman, which applied to black families who lived near the coasts of South Carolina, Georgia and Florida. Sherman's orders specifically allocated "the islands from Charleston, south, the abandoned rice fields along the rivers for thirty miles back from the sea, and the country bordering the St. Johns river, Florida." There was no mention of mules in Sherman's order, although the Army may have distributed them anyway. Federal and state homestead grants of the time ranged from 1/4 section up to a full section.

After the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln, his successor, Andrew Johnson, revoked Sherman's Orders. It is sometimes mistakenly claimed that Johnson also vetoed the enactment of the policy as a federal statute (introduced as U.S. Senate Bill 60). In fact, the Freedmen's Bureau Bill which he vetoed made no mention of grants of land or mules. (Another version of the Freedmen's bill, also without the land grants, was later passed after Johnson's second veto was overridden.)

By June 1865, around 10,000 freed slaves were settled on 400,000 acres (1,600 km²) in Georgia and South Carolina. Soon after, President Andrew Johnson reversed the order and returned the land to its white former owners. Because of this, the phrase has come to represent the failure of Reconstruction and the general public to assist African Americans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_acres_and_a_mule

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Amazon 7]

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you take your "good old boy shop" bullshit and fold it until it is all sharp corners... I'm sure you can figure out what to do with it after that.

Sorry not into that sort of thing.. so please... go ahead and pleasure youself however you wish.

You are the one CLAIMING... that affirmative action leads to DEAD WEIGHT...

Trust me I have seen good ole boy shops with a HELL OF A LOT of dead weight.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Should we expect reparations from the Vikings, ... Did the Germans pay to rebuild London?

To be clear, I wasn't talking about reparations at all.

In the case of affirmative action, I think some form of it needs to continue until we see averages coming to a norm that is acceptable.

[shropshire 0]

"Are you a Communist, boy?"

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Amazon 7]

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Unfortunately people will be biased and prejudiced. You will be told that you're not good enough because of [insert reason here - you're asian, catholic, male....] Some people just have their beliefs and will not be swayed by any version of reality other than their own.

That is why we have to have affirmative action. Because there are too many intelligent people that are ignorant and refuse to learn otherwise.

Right back at ya doc....Speacking of all those old predjuidices based on your own ignorance of what is reality for so many women and minorities in this country.. I guess you have never been subjected to it.... bully for you


There are so many here who daily live the addage.....

There is none so blind as those who will not see!

[nerdgirl 0]

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I want all white guys pulled over and searched.. because they are driving while white...... and they need to take a huge pay cut down to what women are typically paid while doing the same jobs.. where typically they get less than 70% nof a male co-worker... and not get the same promotions at the same rate.

These threads break down quickly when such misleading statements are made.

Concur. They also break down when (1) acknowledgement of lingering discrimination is ingnored or rationalized away, and (2) false portrayals ("strawmen" arguments) of what policies for affirmative action exist today.

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There are no tangible barriers left to women who want to take math and physics or engineering and CS, but what I saw at Cal was a sea of men.

"Tangible" being key. That observation is true in most science and engineering undergrad and graduate programs. It's also true that fewer and fewer American students regardless of sex are pursuing science and engineering degrees.

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I may be super uncle to a lot of young kids, but I'm not giving dolls to any of them.

Cool!

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[kbordson 8]

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I guess you have never been subjected to it.... bully for you

Guess away, but I have. I just don't want to project those acts of ignorance of the few to a LARGE demographic. Not all white males are racist or sexist or .... And I don't WANT to "punish" the non-guilty.

It's that ONE person that is problem (unfortunately there are a lot of "that ONE" people) And ... I hate to say it... but it's not entirely the fault of that one person.... Imagine a lil boy growing up and being told how great he is and how wonderful he will be. That's what parents are supposed to do - encourage confidence, instill self-pride. Sometimes that conditioning goes overboard and instead of just "you're great" it becomes "you're better than everyone else." Now Johnnie has a chip on his shoulder cuz that's what Daddy said. And then you might have another little child that doesn't receive such praise and then feels inferior to Johnnie. How much of all this can we absolutely dump on lil Johnnie? In my mind, at least 51% but not 100%.... but I just don't know the place in between. So even the "guilty" have reasons behind their attitudes.

But telling people to "Be Nice" doesn't always seem to work, now does it?

[shropshire 0]

'does if you ask nicely

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[kbordson 8]

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'does if you ask nicely

I know... [sheepish]. And I do TRY. But, I'm only so tolerant and I gots excuses too. Just like everybody else.

[happythoughts 0]

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no it isn't a good thing. its racism/sexism. just because its against white males doesn't make it ok.

In every game I know of, if even one player cheats and is caught, your entire team is then penalized to compensate the other side and redress the wrong you committed.


Affirmative action is that concept applied to society as a whole.

An extremely poor analogy. Following its logic...

If someone in your neighborhood commits a robbery,
should everyone in the neighborhood go to jail ? Or pay a fine?

What if you didn't live in the neighborhood at the
time? The robbery was 150 years ago, but you just
moved in. Do you still feel it is fair that you should
pay a fine ?

[billvon 3,114]

>the son has a moral obligation to help those against whom the crimes were committed.

Agreed. But that obligation should be to ensure that those crimes are not committed again - not to make sure that such crimes are committed against others in order to favor the former victims.

[happythoughts 0]

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no it isn't a good thing. its racism/sexism. just because its against white males doesn't make it ok.

It may, or may not, work in your favor...

Right now, more women graduate from college than
men. Therefore, under AA, you should be able to
get a scholarship grant based on your unfair treatment.

Of course, since you were the slave-master in days
past, the only fair and legal solution is to sell you
for a reasonable rate, after you graduate.

[jerryzflies 0]

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how about cambridge:

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racism

noun (UK OLD-FASHIONED racialism)

the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races.

sure. That works too.

How would you propose to remedy past unfair treatment? You ARE aware that, on average, women in equivalent jobs make around 80% of what men make, right?

Really?! Wow! Thanks for that clue.

So because of that, I am justified allowing discrimination against others? Cool.

Personally - It's hard to change social discrimination. Some people do NOT want to be educated that they are not the best or the brightest. Resistance is (unfortunately) common. But the question is does two wrongs make a right?

You may call correcting for past discrimination a "wrong", but I don't. I consider it justice.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[jerryzflies 0]

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100% agree Wendy. Affirmative Action, on the other hand, is not fuzzy, It's prescriptive... "You will only recruit from this group" for example.

No, that is NOT an accurate description at all.

You apparently missed this from the EO.

Affirmative action refers to the aggressive recruitment programs, mentoring, training, and family programs that work to recruit and retain qualified individuals.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[happythoughts 0]

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>the son has a moral obligation to help those against whom the crimes were committed.

Agreed. But that obligation should be to ensure that those crimes are not committed again - not to make sure that such crimes are committed against others in order to favor the former victims.

What about the sons of the north, who didn't own slaves? (Of course, the exception being the riots in NY. Those lynchings were bad, but are generally ignored because northerners are not racist. )

Or people who just emigrated to the US since the 1990s?
"I can't get a job why?"

[billvon 3,114]

>What about the sons of the north, who didn't own slaves?

Hopefully, they will see the value in not having those crimes committed again as well. You don't have to have a rape in your past to be against rape.