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QuoteHow would you propose to remedy past unfair treatment?
I don't have to. (this new politically correct, apologising for past events is crap) - I am not responsible for anyone else's actions, past, present or future and should not have to put up with anyone else's discrimination aimed at me.
all this whining from white males about their 'unfair' treatment makes as much sense as them complaining about the pain of childbirth!
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuoteQuote
QuoteAnd in the real world, what happens is that UNqualified people are hired to fill the quotas and the rest of the shop has to carry the dead weight.
Oh yeah....
Only the minorities and women can possibly be hired under affirmative action who then become dead weight in your world...
Best not to hire them then... its so much better to have a good ole boy shop where there can't possibly be any dead weight... but hey.. at least all the good ole boys are comfortable working with each other.
Project much, Jeannie?
So why is this VERY limited form of racism.. so horribly wrong in the face of the REAL problems of the daily racism /sexism foisted on far greater numbers of americans.
I can only surmise that the racist right does not like being treated the way they are used to treating others not like them. Nice world you wish to perpetuate there Mike.
Still projecting, Jeannie? I tell you what - why don't you SHOW me those posts where I'm saying that white people or white males are the best workers.
In fact, I DEMAND it. SHOW THE POSTS.
I work in a shop of five people, 3 of whom are black. The network shop is a man and a woman, both black. The cable shop is 2 black men, a hispanic man and a white man.
So, you take your "good old boy shop" bullshit and fold it until it is all sharp corners... I'm sure you can figure out what to do with it after that.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
Quoteall this whining from white males about their 'unfair' treatment makes as much sense as them complaining about the pain of childbirth!
Bwhaaaa.. I'm not whining, I'm refusing to apologise for something that I'm not responsible for and I'm also refusing to be a victim of anyone else's guilt.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
SkyDekker 1,465
I don't like the concept of affirmative action one bit.
However, I think it is a somewhat necessary evil and a price we as a society have to pay.
However, I think it is a somewhat necessary evil and a price we as a society have to pay.
Line #1 - yeap
Line #2 - Why?
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
Line #2 - Why?
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
kbordson 8
QuoteQuoteall this whining from white males about their 'unfair' treatment makes as much sense as them complaining about the pain of childbirth!
Bwhaaaa.. I'm not whining, I'm refusing to apologise for something that I'm not responsible for and I'm also refusing to be a victim of anyone else's guilt.
This is the impression that I get from most that are against affirmative action.
Why should one person be discriminated against because of his race for the "payback" of actions that were not done by him?
I can easily see why that would be frustrating.
But how else do you change a cultural norm of discrimination against the minority? I would like to say "education" and hiring the best REGARDLESS of his/her race or sex. But as mentioned above... some people do NOT WANT to be educated. So as a society, we are saying that it is ok to discriminate against the white male for the purpose of "equality."
kbordson 8
QuoteLine #2 - Why?
Note: This is an American perspective and link to a US gov't site. I'm not trying to assume that it's the same over there.
Facts on Executive Order 11246 — Affirmative Action
QuoteGoals, Timetables & Good Faith Efforts
1. The numerical goals are established based on the availability of qualified applicants in the job market or qualified candidates in the employer’s work force. Executive Order numerical goals do not create set-asides for specific groups, nor are they designed to achieve proportional representation or equal results. Rather, the goal-setting process in affirmative action planning is used to target and measure the effectiveness of affirmative action efforts to eradicate and prevent discrimination. The Executive Order and its supporting regulations do not authorize OFCCP to penalize contractors for not meeting goals. The regulations at 41 CFR 60-2.12(e), 60-2.30 and 60-2.15, specifically prohibit quota and preferential hiring and promotions under the guise of affirmative action numerical goals. In other words, discrimination in the selection decision is prohibited.
2. Examples of Affirmative Action Programs
OFCCP federal affirmative action in action is exemplified by the EEO programs of the award recipients of the Department of Labor Secretary's Opportunity 2000 Award and Exemplary Voluntary Efforts (EVE) awards. Each year, these awards are given to contractors with outstanding affirmative action programs. Affirmative action refers to the aggressive recruitment programs, mentoring, training, and family programs that work to recruit and retain qualified individuals. Corporate programs nominated for a Secretary 2000 or EVE award include innovative outreach and recruitment, employee development, management development and employee support programs. Past Secretary's Opportunity 2000 award recipients include:
* The Rouse Company (2001)
* Union Bank of California (2000)
* Eli Lilly and Company of Indiana (1999)
* United Technologies Corporation of Connecticut (1998)
* Pacific Gas and Electric of California (1997)
In addition, the Department recognizes other exemplary federal contractors through its EVE awards and exemplary EEO efforts of community organizations through the EPIC awards.
3. Successes
OFCCP efforts benefit real people through systemic contractor investigations and through partnerships with private industry and state and local agencies.
* In general, OFCCP programs helped many Fortune 1,000 companies and other major corporations break the glass ceiling for women and minorities. In 1970, women accounted for 10.2 percent of the officials and managers reported on the Employer Information Report (EEO-1) form submitted by federal contractors. In 1993, women were 29.9 percent of all officials and managers, according to the EEO-1 data.
* Many minorities and women have gained access to employment on large construction projects because of the Department's construction mega-projects. For example, on the Oakland Federal Building project, eight percent of the hours worked on the site were by women. On the New York Federal Courthouse project, 35 percent of the hours were worked by minorities and approximately six percent by women. In addition, OFCCP has recognized the affirmative action efforts of award recipient construction contractors like the Hyman Construction of Manhattan, New York and the Law Company of Kansas.
* Working women moved from welfare to forklift operator jobs and other non-traditional construction jobs in Philadelphia and Chicago through OFCCP outreach efforts.
* Native Americans are now employed on federal highway construction projects in conjunction with the Council for Tribal Employment Rights and the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. Both received Department EPIC awards for their efforts.
* More than 70 individuals with disabilities have been employed in computer positions in Columbus, Ohio through a partnership between the department and Goodwill Industries. This cooperative agreement has resulted in prototypes of workplaces specifically designed to welcome persons with severe disabilities.
* After highly publicized cases in which veterans were unaware of job openings, a Seattle company hired a specialist to address Vietnam-era veterans' issues.
* Because of affirmative action requirements, federal contractors are reviewing their employment policies, including compensation systems, and training their managers and supervisors to identify and correct discrimination and harassment in the workplace.
[probably] the way is to start from scratch with no preconceived ideas. Recruit the best for the job now, with no consideration for anything other that the ability to do the job.
If people don't want to get an education, then they exclude them selves for selection.
It's little bit like those folks on Pop Idiot that get selected, not on their singing ability but because of some hard luck story...... "I'm a poor lesbian single mother with a cold sore, I deserve a break" - No, you don't
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
If people don't want to get an education, then they exclude them selves for selection.
It's little bit like those folks on Pop Idiot that get selected, not on their singing ability but because of some hard luck story...... "I'm a poor lesbian single mother with a cold sore, I deserve a break" - No, you don't
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteLine #2 - Why?
because as a society we have enriched oursleves over the backs of those that we are trying to help with affirmative action. There is a price to pay for everything.
Thanks - good answer, but I don't agree.
I don't to be made to feel guilty for someone else's 'mistakes' - Not my problem.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
I don't to be made to feel guilty for someone else's 'mistakes' - Not my problem.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
QuoteI don't to be made to feel guilty for someone else's 'mistakes' - Not my problem.
do you think reparations/compensation should be made to the european jews?
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
kbordson 8
Quote[probably] the way is to start from scratch with no preconceived ideas. Recruit the best for the job now, with no consideration for anything other that the ability to do the job.
If people don't want to get an education, then they exclude them selves for selection.
It's little bit like those folks on Pop Idiot that get selected, not on their singing ability but because of some hard luck story...... "I'm a poor lesbian single mother with a cold sore, I deserve a break" - No, you don't
I completely agree with you. That is how it SHOULD be. And there really should be no NEED for affirmative action.
But... we as a society say "BUT" to counter the acts of some people who might be well "educated" but yet still ignorant. Those that still think that the Native American is a "lazy Indian" or the African American is "just a ..." or ... it might get to some point that the Caucasian Male is just a "whiny ......" - oh wait, we're there too.
Unfortunately people will be biased and prejudiced. You will be told that you're not good enough because of [insert reason here - you're asian, catholic, male....] Some people just have their beliefs and will not be swayed by any version of reality other than their own.
That is why we have to have affirmative action. Because there are too many intelligent people that are ignorant and refuse to learn otherwise.
By whom?
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
kbordson 8
QuoteQuotethe belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races.
sure. That works too.
how is affirmative action 'unfair'? racism is 'unfair'. affirmative action is only 'levelling the playing field so it is fair for all' (refer to my weapon and shield analogy).
Because the hiring companies have to spend extra and broaden their pool of applicants and increase the minority standing in the application process. They don't have to spend extra or expand the pool to increase the white male category.... so that is an act that is increasing the selective advantage of the one population, but not the other. You call it "leveling the playing field." They see it as "unfair." Both can be right depending on whose view you see.
GeorgiaDon 379
After the various civil rights laws were passed in the 1960's I think it was needed. Relatively few non-whites had advanced educational skills, as they had been barred from many universities. Also few minority-owned businesses were in a position to compete directly with white-owned businesses, as they had been unable to bid on most contracts so they never had access to the revenue streams needed to acquire the equipment or trained people needed to be competitive. However it is now 40+ years on, pretty much two generations. I'm not sure what legitimate need still exists for affirmative action. In some cases I suspect it works against people who have legitimately worked hard for their success, as other people will attribute that success to an "unfair advantage" and not to the successful persons ability or hard work. Affirmative action, it seems to me, contributes to the culture of victimization that encourages people to blame their failures on others, rather than admit that they didn't try hard enough or simply weren't as good at the job as others who did succeed. Of course, there is still a real need for anti-discrimination laws, but that's quite different from affirmative action.
Don
Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)
billvon 3,112
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It's a good thing when used to address a specific act of institutional discrimination (like forcibly separating black students from white students.) It's a bad thing when used to try to "redress wrongs" that have been righted generations ago.
kbordson 8
QuoteAfter the various civil rights laws were passed in the 1960's I think it was needed. Relatively few non-whites had advanced educational skills, as they had been barred from many universities. Also few minority-owned businesses were in a position to compete directly with white-owned businesses, as they had been unable to bid on most contracts so they never had access to the revenue streams needed to acquire the equipment or trained people needed to be competitive. However it is now 40+ years on, pretty much two generations. I'm not sure what legitimate need still exists for affirmative action. In some cases I suspect it works against people who have legitimately worked hard for their success, as other people will attribute that success to an "unfair advantage" and not to the successful persons ability or hard work. Affirmative action, it seems to me, contributes to the culture of victimization that encourages people to blame their failures on others, rather than admit that they didn't try hard enough or simply weren't as good at the job as others who did succeed. Of course, there is still a real need for anti-discrimination laws, but that's quite different from affirmative action.
Don
Good points
The victimization part of it cuts both ways though. The one that doesn't get the job that blames affirmative action is using it as an excuse just as much as the person that claims that they need affirmative action to get the job in the first place.
the germans 
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
QuoteHowever it is now 40+ years on, pretty much two generations.
how many generations did slavery last?
stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding
kbordson 8
QuoteQuoteHowever it is now 40+ years on, pretty much two generations.
how many generations did slavery last?
Not relevant.
So you punish future generations based on actions of past generations?
Not logical.
wmw999 2,587
Great post.
No one wants to be held hostage for someone else's guilt. But the reality is that some people are still being held hostage for others' beliefs.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but if wrong two can decrease the future likelihood of wrong one happening, then maybe it's the right thing to do.
For awhile. I do think there should be phase-out milestones.
But I've seen too many times when one set of management seems to be only able to find qualified majority types, while another, with analogous work, seems to have no trouble finding qualified minorities, hiring from the same pool. For years at a time.
Wendy W.
No one wants to be held hostage for someone else's guilt. But the reality is that some people are still being held hostage for others' beliefs.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but if wrong two can decrease the future likelihood of wrong one happening, then maybe it's the right thing to do.
For awhile. I do think there should be phase-out milestones.
But I've seen too many times when one set of management seems to be only able to find qualified majority types, while another, with analogous work, seems to have no trouble finding qualified minorities, hiring from the same pool. For years at a time.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
wmw999 2,587
"The best for the job" is often based on a number of fairly fuzzy criteria, or ones where there aren't clear differentiators. Ability to work with a team, to communicate effectively, to work on a proprietary system that no one else has, to adapt -- these are not always easy to measure exactly and unequivocally. And that's where "I'm more comfortable with that guy" ends up helping the decision-making process.QuoteRecruit the best for the job now, with no consideration for anything other that the ability to do the job
And hiring white guy managers tend to be comfortable with hiring guys that they are likely to pal around with. The idea is to have managers not include that particular criterion, or else to have a broad enough base of management that one manager's need for comfort is diluted.
Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
I don't have to. (this new politically correct, apologising for past events is crap) - I am not responsible for anyone else's actions, past, present or future and should not have to put up with anyone else's discrimination aimed at me.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
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