quade 4 #26 March 12, 2009 Quote An armed society is a polite society. Just ask the Swiss!! OR . . . a society that requires people to attend boot camp knows not to talk back to authority. You can spin this several ways.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #27 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteHow is Switzerland in terms of suicides (and gun suicides)? I don't know. /Marg Here. This is total INTENTIONAL deaths (homicide + suicide). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #28 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe anti-gun folks don't like to talk about this example, as it destroys their "less guns = less crime" argument. And pro-gun folks like to skip the part about them undergoing military training and having the guns and ammo registered. And the anti-gun folks have evidently never dealt with an S-4 and thinks that the military just throws stuff out of the back of truck without paperwork.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #29 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe anti-gun folks don't like to talk about this example, as it destroys their "less guns = less crime" argument. And pro-gun folks like to skip the part about them undergoing military training and having the guns and ammo registered. And the anti-gun folks have evidently never dealt with an S-4 and thinks that the military just throws stuff out of the back of truck without paperwork. Once again, Neal misses the point. Go back to the original post in this thread. I seriously doubt you'd swap our laws for theirs if you thought about it.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #30 March 12, 2009 Quote Quote Quote My hypothesis is that there will not be a direct dependency found. What's your position on gun control? Does that matter ... or should it? /Marg You remember what Dubya said: "You're either wiff us, or agin' us.""There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #31 March 12, 2009 Quotein general social conformity is valued, standing out too much is a no-no. Oh, you mean socialism.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #32 March 12, 2009 Quote Quote I wasn't making a comparison to the varying types of military service. I just found it interesting that there must be many, many automatic weapons being kept in closets in Switzerland, yet they have one of the lowest gun crime stats in the world. --- An armed society is a polite society. Just ask the Swiss!! US rate of ownership of guns (estimates range from 83 to 97 per 100 people) is higher than the gun ownership rate in Switzerland (average estimate of 48 per 100 people). The estimate for Iraq in 2007 was 38 per 100 people and Yemen was 61 guns per 100 people. See, e.g., graphic attached to [1969912]’s post from Dec07 here, which is derived from primary data here. Relative rankings on crime, e.g., burglaries, in which Switzerland (#13) has a higher burglary rate than the US (#17) (overall incidence, those with guns not specified). The UK (#7), according to the data, has an even higher rate of burglaries (& ~5 1/2 guns per person). Finland is #5 in buglaries, with a higher per capita rate of gun ownership (56 per 100 people) than Switzerland (46 per 100 people), although less than the US (90 per 100 people). Looking at homicides via firearms: US is #8 w/3.6 firearm associated homicides per 100,000 people. Between Mexico (#7), altho' that may be slightly dated, and Belarus (#9). Switzerland isn't in the top 32. If one compares that with firearms per 100 people (a less than perfect measure of availability), I don’t see any correlation. Variables that have been found to correlate to high levels of gun ownership are (1) wealthy countries or (2) countries with recent, intense violent conflicts. The former is the case for US & western Europe; the latter reflects the situations in places like Angola and Columbia. See page 21 of the report noted above for a graph showing the range of GDPs and correlation with per capita civilian gun ownership. The authors discuss where that model breaks down, which it does. Where does gun ownership intersect with gun violence? My hypothesis is that there will not be a direct dependency found. Marg Uh, ok.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #33 March 12, 2009 Quotein general social conformity is valued, standing out too much is a no-no.QuoteOh, you mean socialismNo, kind of like a dittohead among dittoheads. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #34 March 12, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote The anti-gun folks don't like to talk about this example, as it destroys their "less guns = less crime" argument. And pro-gun folks like to skip the part about them undergoing military training and having the guns and ammo registered. Actually, I've never heard pro-gun folks say anything about gun ownership in Switzerland at all...until now. Then you haven't been paying attention. The NRA and JR bring it up on a fairly regular basis. Do a search of JR's postings. I said pro-gun, meaning in ideology, not specifically enthusiasts or advocacy groups. But you're right. I don't typically pay attention.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #35 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuotein general social conformity is valued, standing out too much is a no-no.QuoteOh, you mean socialismNo, kind of like a dittohead among dittoheads. Wendy W. If you knew the origin and meaning of "dittohead", you would realize the joke is on the user of the term as used above. Not that I care - just thought you might want to know.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #36 March 12, 2009 Quote Quote An armed society is a polite society. Just ask the Swiss!! OR . . . a society that requires people to attend boot camp knows not to talk back to authority. You can spin this several ways. Indeed it can. A society that REQUIRES boot camp attendance is a thread all by itself.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #37 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe anti-gun folks don't like to talk about this example, as it destroys their "less guns = less crime" argument. And pro-gun folks like to skip the part about them undergoing military training and having the guns and ammo registered. And the anti-gun folks have evidently never dealt with an S-4 and thinks that the military just throws stuff out of the back of truck without paperwork. Once again, Neal misses the point. Go back to the original post in this thread. I seriously doubt you'd swap our laws for theirs if you thought about it. I didn't miss the point at all - while the weapon is still an issued item, the military WILL maintain records on it. I'd think a staff officer would have been aware of this - I guess not. You also seem to conveniently forget about the 1143 forms that the ATF keeps that show who's bought what. Neither you nor I know if said records are still maintained after the reservist buys the weapon, in the case of the Swiss. I've said nothing about 'swapping for their laws', so take your little strawman and go play somewhere else.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #38 March 12, 2009 QuoteThe cultural difference between the Swiss and the US is huge. Crime is reviled, and criminals are generally ostracized, not embraced as role models or heroes as too frequently occurs in portions of American society... people have respect for what guns are capable of. So I'd say the difference in crime rate has nothing to do with being a well-armed society, it's just a polite society with guns. Guns don't make people criminals, and there isn't much evidence that they make people honest either, they're just inanimate tools. It's what is in the hearts of the people that matters. Ding! Ding! Ding! You just won a gold star! It takes me hundreds of posts here to get most people to reach that conclusion. Crime is not caused by guns. It's caused by culture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #39 March 12, 2009 Quoterate of ownership of guns... Relative rankings on crime... I don’t see any correlation. And another gold star! Gosh, two people in back-to-back posts who know the real truth. I feel all giddy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #40 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteAnd once their term of service is fulfilled, they are allowed to purchase their duty rifles and keep them. The anti-gun folks don't like to talk about this example, as it destroys their "less guns = less crime" argument. Well, if their ammunition is sealed as quade quoted... That's only their call-up duty ammunition that is sealed. That's because it's the minimum kit reserved for wartime mobilization. They are free to, and encouraged, to take their duty rifles out and shoot them for practice using their own ammo. And if they had a mind to murder someone, they could easily open their "sealed" ammo supply to get the ammo they needed. The term "sealed" here simply means plastic packaging to protect the ammo from moisture and dirt (see the attached photo for an example of a sealed "battle pack" of ammo). It does not mean it's in a temper proof safe that only a military official can unlock. A murderer will not be deterred by a layer of plastic around his ammo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #41 March 12, 2009 QuoteYes, it's true. And once their term of service is fulfilled, they are allowed to purchase their duty rifles and keep them. The anti-gun folks don't like to talk about this example, as it destroys their "less guns = less crime" argument. Bullshit, I have never said rifles are bad or unsafe to own,In the wrong hands yes. Handguns are useless, and more dangerous in public becuase they can be concealed easily. rifles are accurate, handguns are inaccurate. The Swiss are onto it, because thay have been in a situation a few time where they have had all out war surrounding thier country, they stayed neutral. I have met many swiss, and know a few, how many conversations about guns have i had or heard them have..? ...0 They are not testosterone junkies like you guys so therefore guns are much safer in thier hands."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #42 March 12, 2009 All of the data seem to offer information about the number of guns per capita. I think another metric that might (or might not) be relevant would be the number of gun owners per capita. Of all the gun owners that I know, I can't think of any that own only one. A few own dozens, and at least one owns well over a hundred. Even I own two (both of which were gifts, neither of which is currently in my possession).Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #43 March 12, 2009 QuoteHandguns are useless, and more dangerous in public becuase they can be concealed easily. Which is why the police carry them, right? Quoterifles are accurate, handguns are inaccurate. Which is why the police carry them, right? QuoteThey are not testosterone junkies like you guys so therefore guns are much safer in thier hands. Speaking of BULLSHIT...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #44 March 13, 2009 QuoteHandguns are useless... rifles are accurate, handguns are inaccurate. You're displaying your ignorance about guns. Again. An Icarus Crossfire parachute with a wing-loading of 2.0 is worthless for stand-up precision accuracy. But a Parafoil is great for that. A Parafoil is worthless for pond swooping, but a Crossfire is perfect for that. Different parachutes are designed for different purposes. Rifles are designed for long range accuracy, but are heavy and bulky to carry on your person. Handguns are designed for short range accuracy, and are easy to carry on your person. They are different tools designed for different purposes. Saying that handguns are inaccurate is incorrect, because they serve their function quite well at short range, such as at 25 yards or less. That's why law enforcement officers use them, because those are the distances at which they most often need a firearm for self defense. And they are accurate enough at those distances to serve that function quite well. Thousands of civilians use handguns every year in self defense also - newspapers nationwide carry such stories daily. So in short: You're wrong about handguns being inaccurate and useless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #45 March 13, 2009 Quote Quote Handguns are useless... rifles are accurate, handguns are inaccurate. You're displaying your ignorance about guns. Again. Rifles are designed for long range accuracy, but are heavy and bulky to carry on your person. Handguns are designed for short range accuracy, and are easy to carry on your person. They are different tools designed for different purposes. Saying that handguns are inaccurate is incorrect, because they serve their function quite well at short range, such as at 25 yards or less. That's why law enforcement officers use them, because those are the distances at which they most often need a firearm for self defense. And they are accurate enough at those distances to serve that function quite well. Thousands of civilians use handguns every year in self defense also - newspapers nationwide carry such stories daily. So in short: You're wrong about handguns being inaccurate and useless. Hi JR Its hard to s dicuss this subject with experts know everything there is to know about firearms I think your over bending the facts to ptove your point. I've reaad that most handgun encounters are a lot closer than 25 yds. You know the exact number better than I do so i"m sure you'll correct my WAG. Most handgun encounters occur in the 10-15 FT range with a target hit rate of 30%. We're talking real life and death situations where the bad people are shooting at the police. Not shooting holes in paper at the range. I agree handguns have their place, for the reasons you stated but the 25 yd range your talking about is streatching the facts a little like all guy's are packing 12", LEO carry handguns for the quick ad dirty but carry their shotguns and long rifles in their partrol cars. If they know in advance that they are going to be getting into a shootout or a call turns upside down, I'm guessing the pump action shotgun or Long rifles are coming out. If a LEO call turns sideways the police can use their handguns to fight their way back to their car for their long guns and call for back up, I'm not in LEO and neither are you but LEO does follow protocal and SOP's for different situations I'd like to hear from someone in LEO What tools they use for different distances and number of perps. I'm guessing handgun @ 25 yds is . Remember the well documented shootout with the chase bro's.sp? caught on the police dash cam. 2 LEO's and 2 perps shooting it out face to face with handguns a lot closer than 25 yds maybe 10 Ft and 20=30 shots and ZERO hits. Home protection: Alot of people rely on their handguns. Screw that handgun crap:12 ga shotgun 181/2" barrel even with the pucker factor low light etc I think most people can hit their bedroom door from any corner in the bed room with 00 buckshot, Handguns have their place and we have the right to defend ourselves but you got to have the right tool for the job. I think your doing a diservice with the 25yd legend. Flame away Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #46 March 13, 2009 QuoteRifles are designed for long range accuracy, but are heavy and bulky to carry on your person. Handguns are designed for short range accuracy, and are easy to carry on your person. Myabe another reason why there aren't too many Swiss running around with their rifles in public. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #47 March 13, 2009 QuoteHome protection: Alot of people rely on their handguns. Screw that handgun crap:12 ga shotgun 181/2" barrel even with the pucker factor low light etc I think most people can hit their bedroom door from any corner in the bed room with 00 buckshot, Handguns have their place and we have the right to defend ourselves but you got to have the right tool for the job. I think your doing a diservice with the 25yd legend. What I said was "25 yards or less". You seem to have ignored that "or less" part. I chose that number because I think it would be generally agreed that the average shooter is going to be inaccurate with a handgun beyond that distance, but stands a good chance of hitting a man-sized target under that distance. In your second paragraph, above, you seem to be completely agreeing with my statement. As for a shotgun in home defense distances, the spread of the shot pattern is not significant in those short ranges (use the 10' to 15' distance you quoted), and doesn't increase your odds of a hit much over a handgun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarpos 4 #48 March 14, 2009 just a few comments on Switzerland: military service is no longer mandatory and a civil service option is now available. All the rifle/ammo at home stuff is correct. gun laws are quite liberal, as a foriegner liviing there I was allowed to own an AK47, SKS and bolt action rifles and various pistols. society is generally extremely civil and law abiding. the first expectation is one of honesty. I often had goods and services provided and people were happy to send me a bill later. It was a nice way to live really. gun related deaths are roughly in line with the rest of Europe per capita. Keep in mind there is a very high % of non Swiss residents in Switzerland , so sometimes I wonder what stats are really representing. I am sure the stat loving Swiss know the %'s for foriegners offending, they do have nationality specific rules for gaining (or not) driving licences and gun permits. suicide rate overall is high compared with rest of Europe sadly. No clue of proportion that is gun related and not sure it matters. Re the pistol accuracy discussion. Almost anybody can hit a man sized target at 25 yards with almost any pistol in good condition, given basic training in controlled conditions. Hitting anything in a real life fire fight when you are full of adrenalin and the target actively is trying to kill you is another issue and depends greatly on your training and practice. People see too much crap on the movies.regards, Steve the older I get...the better I was Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #49 March 14, 2009 Its a cultural thing.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #50 March 14, 2009 QuoteQuotein general social conformity is valued, standing out too much is a no-no. Oh, you mean socialism. You know, you really should Google 'Socialism' sometime.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
