Nutter with gun massacres school children in Germany

[JohnRich 4]

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His number actually reveals quite a lot. It shows that he gets his gun violence numbers from anti-gun organizations, which count suicides in with murders as "gun violence".

Explain how shooting oneself is not violent death.

I didn't say that. "Gun violence" refers to the misuse of a gun to commit a crime against another person. Suicide is violent all right, but it doesn't harm anyone else other than the willing participant.

The causes and prevention of suicide, have nothing at all to do with the causes and prevention of crime. They are separate issues with nothing at all in common.

To suggest that suicides could be prevented by an assault weapons ban, for example, is ludicrous. But that's what the anti-gun folks do when they lump the suicide numbers in as "gun violence", and then call for an assault weapon ban.

Logic is not a strong point for the gun-o-phobes. Nor are facts. So they resort to trying to fool the public with deceptive statistics and inferences like this.

[JohnRich 4]

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It took me awhile, but I think I finally figured out one of the gun debate chasms.

Some folks would rather make the system what they think is reasonably safe, and accept the occasional individual failure as a problem, but the cost of a system they agree with.

Others basically mistrust systems, and see their ability to protect themselves from the failures in the system as more important than the system's strength.

Is your hour of basking in brilliance over yet?

Actually, that's a very good insight. If only we had more of this kind of thinking here, and less of Amazon's kind.

The only problem I have with your idea is this:

The people in the first category have faith in the police to protect them, but that's a false and naive faith, because in fact the police can rarely be there to actually prevent crime.

And then once they become a victim of crime and realize their folly, they move into the second category
and take steps to protect themselves, because they now realize the police probably won't be around when they need them.

[kbordson 8]

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It took me awhile, but I think I finally figured out one of the gun debate chasms.

Some folks would rather make the system what they think is reasonably safe, and accept the occasional individual failure as a problem, but the cost of a system they agree with.

Others basically mistrust systems, and see their ability to protect themselves from the failures in the system as more important than the system's strength.

Is your hour of basking in brilliance over yet?

Actually, that's a very good insight. If only we had more of this kind of thinking here, and less of Amazon's kind.

The only problem I have with your idea is this:

The people in the first category have faith in the police to protect them, but that's a false and naive faith, because in fact the police can rarely be there to actually prevent crime.

And then once they become a victim of crime and realize their folly, they move into the second category
and take steps to protect themselves, because they now realize the police probably won't be around when they need them.

But then those that do still trust that the police are there to protect them tend to think that those that feel otherwise are paranoid.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Did anyone actually post what the current laws are? I read that the firearms used were "legally" owned by his parents, but remember having been told by a friend of mine in Germany that he had to keep his weapons in a locked facility at the shooting range. That seems in conflict with the "parent had them at home" argument.

My understanding is that they can keep the guns at home, but they have to be locked up. In this case all his guns were locked up, except for one which he kept in his bedroom. Which is also the gun the kid ended up using.

[Capt.Slog 0]

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His number actually reveals quite a lot. It shows that he gets his gun violence numbers from anti-gun organizations, which count suicides in with murders as "gun violence".

Explain how shooting oneself is not violent death.

I didn't say that. "Gun violence" refers to the misuse of a gun to commit a crime against another person. .

I love the way you redefine things to suit your own agenda. Gun violence is violence committed with a gun. Period. Whether the victim is self or someone else is immaterial.

[nerdgirl 0]

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Are you aware that the suicide rate is very well correlated with the rate of gun ownership?

Yeah, all those suicides by gun in Japan are quite distressing.

Yes, Jerry has no idea what the concept of correlation is.

[playful sarcasm]
You mean folks who try to draw correlations … or causations … between presence (or absence - see invocations of Switzerland) of guns restrictions and incidence of crime aren’t always defending robust correlations?

Do you think folks might draw false correlations in other things too?
[/playful sarcasm]

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[wmw999 2,560]

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aren’t always defending robust correlations

I'm sorry -- any correlation that I agree with is robust In fact, it damn near proves causation!



Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

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Do you think folks might draw false correlations in other things too?

People confuse causation, correlation, and propaganda all the time.

The suicide numbers of Japan, the US, and Canada make it quite clear that access to guns has no bearing on suicide rates. And the fact that suicidal people buy guns and then use them is hardly shocking news either. It has no bearing on my likelihood of shooting myself because I have more guns than Chuck Norris.

[christelsabine 1]

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....
It might be nice if more armed men were available to confront mass murderers much sooner.

Like in this new case?

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/world/north-america/man-kills-himself-and-four-others-in-miami-14227938.html

Happened few hours ago.

I think, with our (sad) statistic showing 3 cases in 9 (or 5 in 15) years, we still are better off. Our laws seem to work a bit better.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jerryzflies 0]

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> Nothing is perfect. Not even tight German gun laws.

Nor loose Alabama laws.

And that's because gun laws have no bearing on the prevalence of nuts who commit massacres, as these two current examples so aptly illustrate.

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In this case, the claim that had this been the US, it could have been ended "when people obtained and brought guns to counter the student" are, unfortunately, provably inaccurate.

What stopped the German shooter? Men with guns. When he encountered armed policemen, he knew his murderous spree was finished, and police shot him dead.

What stopped the Alabama shooter? Men with guns. When he encountered armed policemen, he knew his murderous spree was finished, and he took his own life.

It might be nice if more armed men were available to confront mass murderers much sooner.

Like in Florida? www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=10008990&nav=HMO6HMaY

Would be far more effective to prevent nutters from getting guns in the first place.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think, with our (sad) statistic showing 3 cases in 9 (or 5 in 15) years, we still are better off. Our laws seem to work a bit better.

Not comforting to those that died.

And if you adjust for population differences, it would be 19 in 15 years. That doesn't sound any better.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Would be far more effective to prevent nutters from getting guns in the first place.

Wouldn't it be great if you could just snack your fingers and there would be no crazies with guns? Or murder?

[JohnRich 4]

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Would be far more effective to prevent nutters from getting guns in the first place.

Ah yes, hope springs eternal for the gun-o-phobes.

How do you propose to do that?

[jerryzflies 0]

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Would be far more effective to prevent nutters from getting guns in the first place.

Ah yes, hope springs eternal for the gun-o-phobes.

How do you propose to do that?

A good start would be not to rely on just their self-certification that they are not nutters.


What's your excuse for this morning's Florida shootings?

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[billvon 3,090]

>Stupid argument. The law abiding aren't going to be trying to
>kill someone - that's why they're called LAW-ABIDING.

Uh, you're the one who claimed that locks are sufficient to stop law abiding citizens who want to break into your house. Stupid comment - the law abiding aren't going to be trying to break into your house. That's why they're called LAW-ABIDING.

[billvon 3,090]

>What stopped the German shooter? Men with guns.
>What stopped the Alabama shooter? Men with guns.

Why - you are right! In both cases, a murderer was stopped by men with guns. One such incident took place in a state with some of the most lenient gun laws in the world; the other in a country with some of the toughest gun laws in the world.

So much for the "gun laws make people unable to stop murderers" argument.

[Krip 2]

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Would be far more effective to prevent nutters from getting guns in the first place.

Ah yes, hope springs eternal for the gun-o-phobes.

How do you propose to do that?

John

The from what I've read about the incident in germany.


Would you allow your kid access to the handgun that you keep for home protection when your not home. How you going to use a gun for "home protection" unless your there.

According to the press reports the kid in germany enjoyed playing video games that had theme of killing people. (nothing wrong with video games unless you mix the consequences of make believe games that depict killing make believe people with real guns, bullets, and real people.

If the news reports are true How did the kid get hold hundreds of rounds of ammo. Why didn't dad keep all his shit locked in his safe with the rest of his guns until he got home.

Laws can only do so much. The kids dad screwed up big time. should the gun laws in germany be changed? Not my place to say but in my opinion dad should be prosecuted.

What would you do as a daddy in texas.

[mnealtx 0]

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So much for the "gun laws make people unable to stop murderers" argument.

The police are exempt from the gun laws.

You have a point here, somewhere?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jerryzflies 0]

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>What stopped the German shooter? Men with guns.
>What stopped the Alabama shooter? Men with guns.

Why - you are right! In both cases, a murderer was stopped by men with guns. One such incident took place in a state with some of the most lenient gun laws in the world; the other in a country with some of the toughest gun laws in the world.

So much for the "gun laws make people unable to stop murderers" argument.

Florida also has some of the most lenient laws, but no men with guns stopped yesterday's Florida mass shooting homicide.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[mnealtx 0]

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>What stopped the German shooter? Men with guns.
>What stopped the Alabama shooter? Men with guns.

Why - you are right! In both cases, a murderer was stopped by men with guns. One such incident took place in a state with some of the most lenient gun laws in the world; the other in a country with some of the toughest gun laws in the world.

So much for the "gun laws make people unable to stop murderers" argument.

Florida also has some of the most lenient laws, but no men with guns stopped yesterday's Florida mass shooting homicide.

Wow, you mean the cops can't be everywhere at once? Quelle surprise...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jerryzflies 0]

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>What stopped the German shooter? Men with guns.
>What stopped the Alabama shooter? Men with guns.

Why - you are right! In both cases, a murderer was stopped by men with guns. One such incident took place in a state with some of the most lenient gun laws in the world; the other in a country with some of the toughest gun laws in the world.

So much for the "gun laws make people unable to stop murderers" argument.

Florida also has some of the most lenient laws, but no men with guns stopped yesterday's Florida mass shooting homicide.

Wow, you mean the cops can't be everywhere at once? Quelle surprise...

Florida restricts guns to cops only? When did that happen?

Your position, which you repeat ad nauseam, is that armed citizens prevent such events.

The overwhelming evidence, of course, is that armed citizens perpetrate such events.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[JohnRich 4]

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Would be far more effective to prevent nutters from getting guns in the first place.

How do you propose to do that?

A good start would be not to rely on just their self-certification that they are not nutters.

Every gun purchase made by a gun dealer is done with the personal approval of an FBI background check. That demonstrates that they have no prior history of being a criminal.

I suppose you're referring to psychiatric data which is not available for background checks in every state, due to doctor/patient confidentiality laws. But if someone is enough of a nut that they're a problem to society, they usually quickly develop a criminal history. So the one that is already checked, is also a reflection of the other that is not always checked.

Do you want every gun purchaser to first have to undergo a psychiatric evaluation before being allowed to purchase a gun?

What about people who already own guns? Should they have periodic psychiatric evaluations to ensure that they haven't gone nuts since their last gun purchase?

Would these government psychiatric evaluations also apply to, say, people with driver's licenses to see if they have problems with alcohol?

Maybe we should give everyone an annual government psych eval to make sure that they're not suicidal!

Oh yeah, we could really have a good crack-down on the citizenry with this system!

Off to the gulag with 'em!

[kelpdiver 2]

You forgot about veterans, John. We know they can't be trusted with guns either due to their sacrifice for the country.

[JohnRich 4]

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>What stopped the German shooter? Men with guns.
>What stopped the Alabama shooter? Men with guns.

Why - you are right! In both cases, a murderer was stopped by men with guns. One such incident took place in a state with some of the most lenient gun laws in the world; the other in a country with some of the toughest gun laws in the world.

So much for the "gun laws make people unable to stop murderers" argument.

Your messages really used to be rather intellectual. But you've been seriously slipping lately.

The men with guns that stopped these shooters were police. Police who arrived on the scene only much later, after many people had already been killed.

The idea is that ordinary citizens who are on the scene by chance when the shooting first starts, have an opportunity to stop the shooter, or drive him away, so that fewer people are killed.

It's a matter of timeliness, since the police can't be everywhere.

I guess you're okay with allowing a nutter to run amok for as long as it takes for the police to show up, no matter how long that might happen to be?

Besides, if it happens to you, you'll just kung-fu karate-chop the shooter, and then everything will be okay.

[JohnRich 4]

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Would you allow your kid access to the handgun that you keep for home protection when your not home. How you going to use a gun for "home protection" unless your there.

According to the press reports the kid in germany enjoyed playing video games that had theme of killing people.

If the news reports are true How did the kid get hold hundreds of rounds of ammo. Why didn't dad keep all his shit locked in his safe with the rest of his guns until he got home.

Laws can only do so much.

Do you want the police randomly entering homes to inspect them for compliance with home gun storage laws? Heck, while they're at it, they could search for illegal drugs too. And water flow restricters in your shower - yeah, gotta check for those too. We can just call it a "annual government home compliance inspection". There, that doesn't sound so bad.

Do you want video games featuring gun violence to be banned?

Yes, laws can only do so much - which is just about nothing. Then at some point you have to draw a line in the sand between more laws, and freedom, because if you add too many of the former, you end up with not enough of the latter. You can turn your country into a Gestapo state trying to stop gun violence, but would it be worth that?