mnealtx 0 #76 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteAlso companies will do anything to circumvent regulations, having no wriggle room is a good thing, today its just the color, then tomorrow it will be some other minor difference, how can you define changes which don't require retesting without opening the door to genuine mistakes or abuse. And then there's the law of unintended consequences. If every product improvement requires that the entire lineup of models be re-tested at great expense, then maybe the manufacturers will just say "the hell with it" on improvements, and just keep selling what has already been approved. So then the guns marketed in California will actually be LESS safe than the ones sold everywhere else. Nice strawman, if a firearms manufacturer produced a good weapon and there was demand the cost of the approval would be insignificant compared to the profit, and at the end of the day profit is all that counts. Also the CA government would change the rules if what you say happened. Not a strawman at all, if you know anything about the gun industry. Several manufacturers make "Cali-legal" weapons solely for distribution in the state, and an equivalent model sans idiocy for sale in the rest of the country. Seeing as how a change in the Cali weapon would require the (ahem) "donation" of 3 examples and payment for the testing costs AND a 200 fee per year per model, it is VERY reasonable that manufacturers would 'freeze' Cali models while upgrading 49-state models.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfc 1 #77 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAlso companies will do anything to circumvent regulations, having no wriggle room is a good thing, today its just the color, then tomorrow it will be some other minor difference, how can you define changes which don't require retesting without opening the door to genuine mistakes or abuse. And then there's the law of unintended consequences. If every product improvement requires that the entire lineup of models be re-tested at great expense, then maybe the manufacturers will just say "the hell with it" on improvements, and just keep selling what has already been approved. So then the guns marketed in California will actually be LESS safe than the ones sold everywhere else. Nice strawman, if a firearms manufacturer produced a good weapon and there was demand the cost of the approval would be insignificant compared to the profit, and at the end of the day profit is all that counts. Also the CA government would change the rules if what you say happened. Not a strawman at all, if you know anything about the gun industry. Several manufacturers make "Cali-legal" weapons solely for distribution in the state, and an equivalent model sans idiocy for sale in the rest of the country. Seeing as how a change in the Cali weapon would require the (ahem) "donation" of 3 examples and payment for the testing costs AND a 200 fee per year per model, it is VERY reasonable that manufacturers would 'freeze' Cali models while upgrading 49-state models. The auto industry tried pushing the same strawman and it was the same bullshit. It will diminish profits but not eliminate them, guns will always be available in CA, the firearms folks are adapting. If firearms sales stopped due to regulation then I'd agree with you but they haven't, the fact some models are different is not interesting. I can't import a car from Texas to CA without paying for it to be certified and in some cases it would be impossible, this is just the same except its guns, why should they get different treatment than other consumer goods, states have the rights to set consumer laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #78 March 12, 2009 QuoteIf firearms sales stopped due to regulation then I'd agree with you but they haven't, Well, except for those models that are no longer certified. Or 50 caliber rifles. Hmm... I wonder what Cali is gonna do when those SWAT teams need maintenance on their Barretts, since Ronnie Barrett will no longer sell to Cali LE or maintain their weapons? Quotewhy should they get different treatment than other consumer goods, Nobody's saying they SHOULD have different treatment - we're just saying that the Cali law is bullshit, which was amply illustrated by JR's post about the loaded chamber indicator. Quotestates have the rights to set consumer laws. Yup...and retailers have the right to not sell there. Sucks to be the consumer caught in the middle, though.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #79 March 12, 2009 Sadly the loaded chamber indicator on the Kinber (thanks JR!) is radically smaller than other models which have been denied due to an indicator not meeting requirements.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #80 March 12, 2009 So where's Kallend when we need him? Capt. Slog, is anyone AWOL? "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #81 March 12, 2009 QuoteSo where's Kallend when we need him? Capt. Slog, is anyone AWOL? Scotty says he'd pay the $200 and have it tested, because the law of unintended consequences applies to changing pigments in polymers too, and who the f--- knows what the slide is made of since they can't seem to get their act together in their data sheets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #82 March 12, 2009 Reading through the discussion when it gets to specifics, it sounds like there’s some general agreement that the DC policy as written and implemented – since every US citizen is not an expert metallurgical engineer/materials scientist *and* an expert marksman/knowledgeable arms dealer – is based more on ideology than on science, engineering, or facts, yes? One of the criticisms (acknowledging that there are others valid & invalid criticisms; validity largely depends on one’s opinion) is that the policy doesn’t make sense on a technical basis, yes? Why do are there some policies in which technical issues are important, or even paramount, and others where technical issues are not, e.g., just as one example of many possible: policy restricting creation of new stem cell lines from 8-cell or 16-cell blastocysts? /Marg … & for the record: on technical *and* on ethical grounds, I oppose both the restrictions on legal gun ownership and restrictions on creation of new stem cell lines Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #83 March 12, 2009 Quote Reading through the discussion when it gets to specifics, it sounds like there’s some general agreement that the DC policy as written and implemented – since every US citizen is not an expert metallurgical engineer/materials scientist *and* an expert marksman/knowledgeable arms dealer – is based more on ideology than on science, engineering, or facts, yes? I'd say no. I'd say it was based on expediency. California has a list and DC adopted it. If the gun isn't on the list then it's not allowed. While some people may not like the law, that doesn't sound like ideology to me, it sounds like simply adopting standards that have been previously found to work by another entity. It might be a bit lazier than creating their own standards, but at least there is a precedent for them being used. Further, it places no extra burden on the gun manufacturers since they would already have to submit guns for testing in California and opens up the DC market to them reducing the cost per gun submitted to California by the amount of profit they'd make in DC on those same guns.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #84 March 12, 2009 With regard to DC you are correct but change her post to say CA instead of DC then she is correct. CA gun laws are emotionally based rather than factually based. This is where I take issue with CA. The lack of intelligent, logical, factual based legislation.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #85 March 12, 2009 QuoteThis is where I take issue with CA. The lack of intelligent, logical, factual based legislation. Dude - you're talking about CALI - are you *really* surprised by that?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #86 March 12, 2009 No...I'd move but damn it the weather is sooooo nice. Actually I really am considering moving. How's the weather out there in Bosnia and can you hook up a job?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #87 March 12, 2009 QuoteNo...I'd move but damn it the weather is sooooo nice. Actually I really am considering moving. How's the weather out there in Bosnia and can you hook up a job? Quite a lot like Germany - a bit warmer in the summer and not quite as cold in the winter. I don't think we've got any positions open right now, though I can check ... whattaya do?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #88 March 12, 2009 Quote The auto industry tried pushing the same strawman and it was the same bullshit. It will diminish profits but not eliminate them, guns will always be available in CA, the firearms folks are adapting. The scale of the markets is off by orders of magnitude. I've spent perhaps $4000 in my life on guns, and I have enough to have it called an "arsenal" by your favorite media sources. Meanwhile, I've spent nearly $80k in vehicles, and that's despite now owning an 11 yo subaru. Guns remain available, but they're rather expensive if you're not rich enough to pay rent in SF, or skydive in our parts. The last couple were nearly $900 each. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #89 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteNo...I'd move but damn it the weather is sooooo nice. Actually I really am considering moving. How's the weather out there in Bosnia and can you hook up a job? Quite a lot like Germany - a bit warmer in the summer and not quite as cold in the winter. I don't think we've got any positions open right now, though I can check ... whattaya do? Currently - Small business management but I am versatile and a quick learner.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites