D.C. Rejects Woman's Handgun Over Color

[jerryzflies 0]

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You can download the Springfield XD handgun catalog here:
http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php

Therein, you'll see that the the number of combinations and permutations offered, varying in color, barrel length and caliber, numbers 18 models.

They have to pay $200 to test each of those for sale in California, so for these XD handguns alone, to cover all models, will cost $3,600. Per year. Even though nothing is different between the different versions regarding safety.

The different colors have nothing to do with different metals. They are all polymer frame, steel slide. The colors are just a metal coating to resist rust (called Melonite), or with the lack of a coating, bare stainless steel.

So, color has nothing to do with any indication of the usage of different metals. All you anti-gun folks are just barking up at an empty tree, where there never was a raccoon in the first place. You gun-o-phobes do like to run around in packs and bark, making much ado about nothing. But it's fun to watch how you grasp at a theory, accept it as a fact, and then go on the rampage against it, without bothering to do any research first. Woof!

Therefore, testing a green .45 model should suffice to also qualify the black, brown and stainless versions. Only the paint, or lack thereof, is different.

You don't crash test every paint color on one particular model of a new car. It's a waste of time because the paint isn't relevant to the safety or reliability. And so it is with these handguns.

If the crumple zone of the red car was made of stainless steel and of the blue one was mild steel they certainly WOULD both require crash testing, and it would cost a lot more than $200.

Your OP was highly misleading and your poll inappropriate.

What part of "the slides are the same material and only the melonite coating is a different color" did you not understand?

Well, there seems to be some considerable dispute about that. Why coat a slide to protect against corrosion (per John Rich) if the slide is stainless steel in the first place?

Are you now saying ALL the slides are the exact same grade of stainless steel? That isn't what wolfriverjoe or quade said.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[mnealtx 0]

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Well, there seems to be some considerable dispute about that. Why coat a slide to protect against corrosion (per John Rich) if the slide is stainless steel in the first place?

Because, if you knew what you were talking about, you would realize that 'stainless' is actually only stain-resistant. It doesn't mean that it will never stain or rust. I've already shown above where the gun being talked about in the OP is actually a forged steel frame with a chromed melonite coating - you idiots are the only ones still going on about a stainless slide, which makes ZERO fucking difference to the tests that Cali does.

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Are you now saying ALL the slides are the exact same grade of stainless steel? That isn't what wolfriverjoe or quade said.

I don't give a shit what Quade said, frankly. Regardless of the steel used, handgun slides are generally tempered to a range of 38-51 Rockwell.

Class is over. If you still wish to discuss this, explain in your next post how slide material affects the barrel or the lockwork.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,116]

Your one warning.

[jerryzflies 0]

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Well, there seems to be some considerable dispute about that. Why coat a slide to protect against corrosion (per John Rich) if the slide is stainless steel in the first place?

Because, if you knew what you were talking about, you would realize that 'stainless' is actually only stain-resistant. It doesn't mean that it will never stain or rust. I've already shown above where the gun being talked about in the OP is actually a forged steel frame with a chromed melonite coating - you idiots are the only ones still going on about a stainless slide, which makes ZERO fucking difference to the tests that Cali does.

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Are you now saying ALL the slides are the exact same grade of stainless steel? That isn't what wolfriverjoe or quade said.

I don't give a shit what Quade said, frankly. Regardless of the steel used, handgun slides are generally tempered to a range of 38-51 Rockwell.

Class is over. If you still wish to discuss this, explain in your next post how slide material affects the barrel or the lockwork.

So you don't actually know, you are just blowing smoke.


28 - 51 Rc is quite a range, as any metallurgist will tell you. Could take in a lot of different steel grades. And even if they have the same Rc, they can still have VERY different K1c and CTOD values.

It's OK, we understand.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[mnealtx 0]

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28 - 51 Rc is quite a range, as any metallurgist will tell you. Could take in a lot of different steel grades. And even if they have the same Rc, they can still have VERY different K1c and CTOD values.

It's OK, we understand.

My apologies, that was a typo - it's 38-41 (for Caspian slides).

Class is still out of session until you do your homework.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jerryzflies 0]

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28 - 51 Rc is quite a range, as any metallurgist will tell you. Could take in a lot of different steel grades. And even if they have the same Rc, they can still have VERY different K1c and CTOD values.

It's OK, we understand.

My apologies, that was a typo - it's 38-41 (for Caspian slides).

Class is still out of session until you do your homework.

Rc 38-41 could be almost anything.

Tell us the grade of steel used for the slide of each model (AISI, SAE or ASTM) and I'll believe you. Is it austenitic, martensitic, ferritic, or duplex?

You don't actually know, do you?

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[mnealtx 0]

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Class is over. If you still wish to discuss this, explain in your next post how slide material affects the barrel or the lockwork.

(However, I *am* impressed you were able to look up industry terms. You get a cookie!)

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jerryzflies 0]

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Class is over. If you still wish to discuss this, explain in your next post how slide material affects the barrel or the lockwork.

(However, I *am* impressed you were able to look up industry terms. You get a cookie!)

Oh, I assure you I needed a lot more than that to get my degrees in metallurgical engineering.

If you can't fix it with a hammer, the problem's electrical.

[mnealtx 0]

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Class is over. If you still wish to discuss this, explain in your next post how slide material affects the barrel or the lockwork.

(However, I *am* impressed you were able to look up industry terms. You get a cookie!)

Oh, I assure you I needed a lot more than that to get my degrees in metallurgical engineering.

Congratulations - that must've been a pain in the ass major.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[downwardspiral 0]

So it makes no difference to you guys that the fact the slide is stainless steel has absolutely nothing to do with why it isn't legal?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[mnealtx 0]

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So it makes no difference to you guys that the fact the slide is stainless steel has absolutely nothing to do with why it isn't legal?

1. Per Springfield's data sheet, the slide is forged steel with a melonite coating.

2. Per the new reports, the lady was denied due to the color of the pistol, not the presence (or lack thereof) of certain devices required by Cali law.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[downwardspiral 0]

Its says Forged Stainless Steel, Satin finish on the Springfield Armory website.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php?version=70



2. Per the new reports, the lady was denied due to the color of the pistol, not the presence (or lack thereof) of certain devices required by Cali law.

That's because whoever denied her registration has no clue to why certain models are not legal. The same model (bi-tone) in 9mm and .40 is legal in CA so should be in DC as well.


lol I've been trying to tell you guys.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[sfc 1]

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Here are the new requirements as of Jan 1, 08.

There's expected language regarding what comprises a loaded chamber indicator - readily visible with graphics or text or both, etc - but there's also a requirement that it be designed in such a way to plainly indicate "to a reasonably forseeable adult user of the pistol" the chamber is loaded "without requiring the user to refer to a user's manual or any other resource other than the pistol itself.


I bolded the part that essentailly banned the sale of all new handgun models in CA.

Improving the standards of consumer goods is very typical (especially in CA).
Banning of leaded gasoline, catalytic converter, cars emissions, Car safety features (LATCH, center brake lights), Smoking in the workplace bans, Smoking in bars banned, in some places smoking in condos banned. Levels of lead in kids toys and mandatory testing etc.

I don't think guns are singled out in particular, any industry where the products can cause harm or kill face increasing regulation, (including kids toys, who'd thought chewing the paint off a red toy would be more dangerous that chewing the paint off a blue toy). Although some of it is over the top nanny state interference in our lives, I don't see any reason that guns should get a pass and avoid the same level of regulation that other consumer products do, including testing.

Also companies will do anything to circumvent regulations, having no wriggle room is a good thing, today its just the color, then tomorrow it will be some other minor difference, how can you define changes which don't require retesting without opening the door to genuine mistakes or abuse.

[downwardspiral 0]

This is not about improved safety features. Springfield have submitted newer models of XD which have been improved with internal safeties and they have been denied. This is an outright ban.

I have spent the last 10 minutes or so trying to find an example of a legal loaded chamber indicator required by CA law. I failed. Please give it a shot as you may have better luck.

What we have now is a list of approximately 1,300 semi-auto handguns which are legal and no longer can be improved with new safety features thanks to the new law.

I do appreciate your point but it has absolutely no bearing on this subject.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[mnealtx 0]

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Its says Forged Stainless Steel, Satin finish on the Springfield Armory website.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php?version=70



2. Per the new reports, the lady was denied due to the color of the pistol, not the presence (or lack thereof) of certain devices required by Cali law.

That's because whoever denied her registration has no clue to why certain models are not legal. The same model (bi-tone) in 9mm and .40 is legal in CA so should be in DC as well.


lol I've been trying to tell you guys.

Where do you get the model information from? It's not listed in the article.

Also interesting is the fact that the data sheet for the 9613 shows a forged steel slide. I wonder which is the goofup?

Slide metal is immaterial for the firing/drop tests, anyway - the barrels and lockwork are common between the models, which is going to determine the drop test / firing test performance.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

I don't view a chamber loaded indicator to be a safety feature at all. We already have a solution - check the slide. Relying on an indicator is another way for people to make stupid mistakes.

[sfc 1]

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This is not about improved safety features. Springfield have submitted newer models of XD which have been improved with internal safeties and they have been denied. This is an outright ban.

I have spent the last 10 minutes or so trying to find an example of a legal loaded chamber indicator required by CA law. I failed. Please give it a shot as you may have better luck.

What we have now is a list of approximately 1,300 semi-auto handguns which are legal and no longer can be improved with new safety features thanks to the new law.

I do appreciate your point but it has absolutely no bearing on this subject.

I wasn't just responding to your point, however a quick search revealed these pistol that have just been approved in CA, I presume they met whatever requirements CA has including the one you claim cannot be met, but I didn't check.
Original link http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/recentlyadded.pdf

Kimber Stnls Ultra Carry II
Freedom Defender /
Stainless Steel, Alum. Alloy
.45 ACP Pistol 3" 2/13/2009
Smith & Wesson M&P 45 (Mag. Safety &
Thumb Safety) Dark Earth
Bro / Stainless Steel,
Polymer
.45 ACP Pistol 4.5" 2/13/2009
Glock 22 - FBI 100 Yr.
Commemorative (Blk) /
Steel, Polymer
.40 S&W Pistol 4.49" 1/30/2009

[downwardspiral 0]

You must have missed it then

Hanson’s Springfield XD-45 was on the government’s approved roster of guns, but hers was black and silver, the attorney said.



Also I found a review.

The XD guns are available in three different barrel lengths: the 3.1-inch barrel is called the Sub-Compact, the 4-inch barrel is the Service Model, and the 5-inch gun is the Tactical Model. Shooters also have a choice of finishes and can opt for the black model, the OD green, or the Bi-tone, which consists of a stainless slide mounted on a black frame.


http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/springfieldxd_061206/


I do agree the drop test argument is rather moot at this point.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[JohnRich 4]

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Also companies will do anything to circumvent regulations, having no wriggle room is a good thing, today its just the color, then tomorrow it will be some other minor difference, how can you define changes which don't require retesting without opening the door to genuine mistakes or abuse.

And then there's the law of unintended consequences.

If every product improvement requires that the entire lineup of models be re-tested at great expense, then maybe the manufacturers will just say "the hell with it" on improvements, and just keep selling what has already been approved.

So then the guns marketed in California will actually be LESS safe than the ones sold everywhere else.

[downwardspiral 0]

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This is not about improved safety features. Springfield have submitted newer models of XD which have been improved with internal safeties and they have been denied. This is an outright ban.

I have spent the last 10 minutes or so trying to find an example of a legal loaded chamber indicator required by CA law. I failed. Please give it a shot as you may have better luck.

What we have now is a list of approximately 1,300 semi-auto handguns which are legal and no longer can be improved with new safety features thanks to the new law.

I do appreciate your point but it has absolutely no bearing on this subject.

I wasn't just responding to your point, however a quick search revealed these pistol that have just been approved in CA, I presume they met whatever requirements CA has including the one you claim cannot be met, but I didn't check.
Original link http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/recentlyadded.pdf

Kimber Stnls Ultra Carry II
Freedom Defender /
Stainless Steel, Alum. Alloy
.45 ACP Pistol 3" 2/13/2009
Smith & Wesson M&P 45 (Mag. Safety &
Thumb Safety) Dark Earth
Bro / Stainless Steel,
Polymer
.45 ACP Pistol 4.5" 2/13/2009
Glock 22 - FBI 100 Yr.
Commemorative (Blk) /
Steel, Polymer
.40 S&W Pistol 4.49" 1/30/2009

Nice find! Any chance you can find a pic of the loaded chamber indicator on any of those weapons? You seem to be better at it than I am.

You have proven me wrong. I shall now go commit seppoku.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[JohnRich 4]

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I don't view a chamber loaded indicator to be a safety feature at all. We already have a solution - check the slide. Relying on an indicator is another way for people to make stupid mistakes.

Correct. If someone is already too darned stupid to handle a gun properly, by pointing it at another person, then they sure as heck are going to be too stupid to know what a tiny little chamber-loaded indicator is.

The gun-grabbers won't be happy until guns are designed like cartoon guns, where a stick pops out of the barrel and a flag unrolls that says "Bang!"

[mnealtx 0]

I found a copy of the brief through saf.org.

The model in question in Ms. Hanson's example is the 9623, a 5" Tactical model. Several of the other 5" Tactical models are on the Cali list.

The other lady in the suit, Ms. St. Lawrence, has a Para-Ordnance P1345 that WAS on the list until 2005. I guess PO decided to quit paying the Dane on that model.

The last petitioner, Mr. St. Lawrence, is trying to register a High Standard Buntline 22 revolver.

Here's where it gets FUN:

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Mr. St. Lawrence’s revolver is identical to the gun Defendants were ordered to
register by the United States Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783
(2008), because its possession was deemed protected by the Second Amendment. Defendants did,
in fact, issue a registration certificate for the handgun at issue in the Heller case.

Yeah, I get the feeling DC is gonna get it's ass handed to them again...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

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Nice find! Any chance you can find a pic of the loaded chamber indicator on any of those weapons?

Here's the owner's manual for the Kimber Ultra Carry. See page 13.
www.kimberamerica.com/downloads/Manuals/Compact.pdf

Quote:

"When there is a round in the chamber, the external extractor will slightly extend out from the slide which can be felt by brushing the trigger finger upward across the extractor"

Yeah, like an ignorant gun handler that is about to point a loaded gun at someone else is going to feel that tiny little slightly-raised piece of metal, and suddenly realize: "Oh shit! This thing is loaded! I almost made a big mistake!"

No chance. If they don't already know basic gun handling safety, then that tiny little raised extractor ain't gonna help.

And even if the extractor is flush indicating the chamber is empty, it's still folly to assume it's empty and point it at someone else. You still need to open the slide and visually check the chamber.

This is what guns designed by politicians are going to be like...

[sfc 1]

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Also companies will do anything to circumvent regulations, having no wriggle room is a good thing, today its just the color, then tomorrow it will be some other minor difference, how can you define changes which don't require retesting without opening the door to genuine mistakes or abuse.

And then there's the law of unintended consequences.

If every product improvement requires that the entire lineup of models be re-tested at great expense, then maybe the manufacturers will just say "the hell with it" on improvements, and just keep selling what has already been approved.

So then the guns marketed in California will actually be LESS safe than the ones sold everywhere else.

Nice strawman, if a firearms manufacturer produced a good weapon and there was demand the cost of the approval would be insignificant compared to the profit, and at the end of the day profit is all that counts.
Also the CA government would change the rules if what you say happened.

[sfc 1]

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Nice find! Any chance you can find a pic of the loaded chamber indicator on any of those weapons?

Here's the owner's manual for the Kimber Ultra Carry. See page 13.
www.kimberamerica.com/downloads/Manuals/Compact.pdf

Quote:

"When there is a round in the chamber, the external extractor will slightly extend out from the slide which can be felt by brushing the trigger finger upward across the extractor"

Yeah, like an ignorant gun handler that is about to point a loaded gun at someone else is going to feel that tiny little slightly-raised piece of metal, and suddenly realize: "Oh shit! This thing is loaded! I almost made a big mistake!"

No chance. If they don't already know basic gun handling safety, then that tiny little raised extractor ain't gonna help.

And even if the extractor is flush indicating the chamber is empty, it's still folly to assume it's empty and point it at someone else. You still need to open the slide and visually check the chamber.

This is what guns designed by politicians are going to be like...

riiiiiiiight, no-one has ever made the mistake of thinking a gun is not loaded when it was, and those that did were all untrained, a trained professional has never mishandled a gun.