dreamdancer 0 #151 March 10, 2009 did you read the figure that said 50 cents from 1959 is worth $4 today (in unskilled wages) how is that not relevant?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #152 March 10, 2009 Because... it wasn't $4.00 back then! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #153 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteYou just don't get it. On 'paper' that might be a 'multi-million dollar ranch'. In reality, most farmers and ranchers are in debt. and only get one pay-check a year! Then again, you seem to have all the answers so, nothing I say can change that. He doesn't get it, or is trolling. I'm from a farm - Slog - key point - how much debt is tied into say 8 buildings, one house, 3 tractors, equipment, and a lot of land Red herring. You don't pay tax on the debt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #154 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the government Then, you missed the part about most farms and ranches are in debt up to their butts and only get paid once a year? There's an old saying; "You can't get blood out of a turnip!" If, ya' ain't got it... you can't give it! Chuck Pay off the debt and there's nought to inherit, then. No inheritance, no tax, problem solved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #155 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the government Then, you missed the part about most farms and ranches are in debt up to their butts and only get paid once a year? There's an old saying; "You can't get blood out of a turnip!" If, ya' ain't got it... you can't give it! Chuck Pay off the debt and there's nought to inherit, then. No inheritance, no tax, problem solved. Easy for you to say. Obviously, you know nothing about 'real' farming and ranching. Talk with them and see just how easy it is to pay-off their debt! This is just silly. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #156 March 10, 2009 QuoteWarren Buffett A contemporary person of enormous fortune, Warren Buffett, is perhaps the greatest defender of the inheritance tax today. His biographer, Roger Lowenstein, relates the following story about Buffet’s position. “Once, at a Q & A at Cap Cities, Buffett was asked how he would rewrite the tax code. ‘If I really could do it, it would shock you,’ he said. He’d tax the hell out of personal consumption – at progressively higher rates – and impose an ‘enormous’ inheritance tax.” On another occasion, when asked what the right amount to leave one’s children was, Buffett retorted, “a few hundred thousand ought to do it.” And he sticks to his word. He never gives his own children more than the gift exclusion amount every Christmas – currently $10,000 (indexed for inflation). And he plans on leaving the lion’s share of his fortune to the Buffett Foundation. Buffett’s critique of inherited wealth is reminiscent of Thomas Paine’s acid-penned diatribes. To quote Buffet: “The DuPonts might believe themselves perceptive in observing the debilitating effects of food stamps for the poor, but were themselves living off a boundless supply of privately funded food stamps. . . . The idea that you get a lifetime of food stamps based on coming out of the right womb strikes at my idea of fairness.” Like Paine, Buffet argues that if talent can’t be passed down to later generations, neither should money. “Warren explained that if he were the quarterback of the Nebraska football team it wouldn’t be fair of him to pass down the job to a son or daughter, and that he felt the same about his money.” Over a two-hundred-year history, estate tax proponents have focused on two arguments: the fairness issue (inherited wealth is not fair to the poor) and the productivity issue (inherited wealth is not beneficial for its recipients). Recent empirical studies have confirmed the productivity argument. In The Millionaire Next Door, researchers Thomas Stanley and William Danko conclude that lifetime and testamentary family gifts are both a disincentive to work as well as a disincentive to save. Their findings show that the more dollars adult children receive, the fewer they accumulate, while those who are given fewer dollars accumulate more. http://pgt.liebertpub.com/pgt/articles/mt_rushmore_and_a_history.htmstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #157 March 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the government Then, you missed the part about most farms and ranches are in debt up to their butts and only get paid once a year? There's an old saying; "You can't get blood out of a turnip!" If, ya' ain't got it... you can't give it! Chuck Pay off the debt and there's nought to inherit, then. No inheritance, no tax, problem solved. Easy for you to say. Obviously, you know nothing about 'real' farming and ranching. Talk with them and see just how easy it is to pay-off their debt! This is just silly. Chuck Like your claim about inheritance tax. The debt reduces the value of the estate and hence the tax payable (if any). But keep whining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #158 March 11, 2009 Quote Um, the income tax came about in 1913, after the United States defeated two of the most powerful empires in the World, The Brtish (twice) and the Spanish. How does the military contribute to our economic success? Contrary to popular belief, war and destruction is actually a drain on the economy. Uh, we were the Vietnam in a proxy war between England and France the first time, and the second time they burned the White House. The Spanish were already well in decline by the turn of the 20th Century. It wasn't until the other world powers destroyed themselves in two world wars (we benefited from the oceans) that the US was a superpower, able to impose our will on others. And if you don't see the economic value in that, this conversation is a waste of time, even by SC standards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #159 March 11, 2009 QuoteIt wasn't until the other world powers destroyed themselves in two world wars (we benefited from the oceans) that the US was a superpower, able to impose our will on others. which resulted in... QuoteUnited States dollar The United States dollar is the most important reserve currency in the world today. Throughout the last decade, an average of two thirds of the total allocated foreign exchange reserves of countries have been in U.S. dollars. For this reason, the U.S. dollar is said to have "reserve-currency status", making it somewhat easier for the United States to run higher trade deficits with greatly postponed economic impact (see currency crisis). Central bank reserves held in dollar-denominated debt, however, are small compared to private holdings of such debt. In the event that non-United States holders of dollar-denominated assets decided to shift holdings to assets denominated in other currencies, there could be serious consequences for the U.S. economy. Changes of this kind are rare, and typically change takes place gradually over time; the markets involved adjust accordingly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currencystay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #160 March 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteall for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year You forgot to mention 52 weeks each year, every year. Don't forget that. (I support the estate tax, but I'm fully aware of how difficult life on a farm is.) uphill, both ways, in a snow storm with one pair of shoes shared between all 7 kids ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #161 March 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThank you, for your in-put! All my life, I've known farmers and ranchers and they all say about the same thing in regard to the inheritance tax. They don't like it! farmers spend their time whining about money - getting any out of them is like pulling teeth! (i grew up on a farm. so i should know) one thing they like is the vast welfare subsidies they get from the government Then, you missed the part about most farms and ranches are in debt up to their butts and only get paid once a year? There's an old saying; "You can't get blood out of a turnip!" If, ya' ain't got it... you can't give it! Chuck Pay off the debt and there's nought to inherit, then. No inheritance, no tax, problem solved. Easy for you to say. Obviously, you know nothing about 'real' farming and ranching. Talk with them and see just how easy it is to pay-off their debt! This is just silly. Chuck Like your claim about inheritance tax. The debt reduces the value of the estate and hence the tax payable (if any). But keep whining. I'm just telling it like it is. I'm hearing it from the horses mouth. At least, I'm not the one trying to baffle 'em with bull-shit. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #162 March 11, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteall for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year You forgot to mention 52 weeks each year, every year. Don't forget that. (I support the estate tax, but I'm fully aware of how difficult life on a farm is.) uphill, both ways, in a snow storm with one pair of shoes shared between all 7 kids You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #163 March 12, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote all for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year You forgot to mention 52 weeks each year, every year. Don't forget that. (I support the estate tax, but I'm fully aware of how difficult life on a farm is.) uphill, both ways, in a snow storm with one pair of shoes shared between all 7 kids You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt. this is just terrible! (but at least you were paid sixpence a week stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #164 March 12, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote all for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year You forgot to mention 52 weeks each year, every year. Don't forget that. (I support the estate tax, but I'm fully aware of how difficult life on a farm is.) uphill, both ways, in a snow storm with one pair of shoes shared between all 7 kids You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt. this is just terrible! (but at least you were paid sixpence a week Terrible? It were luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #165 March 12, 2009 Quote Ya' know Marg, I've noticed you do a good bit of research. In an ‘unauthorized armchair anthropologist” sorta way, I found it more curious to observe which folks assume I “do research,” etc and which credit other explanations. Interesting Freud imitation> /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 333 #166 March 12, 2009 Quote You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt. We were so poor that my dad had to jack off, just to feed the cat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt.Slog 0 #167 March 12, 2009 Quote Quote Ya' know Marg, I've noticed you do a good bit of research. In an ‘unauthorized armchair anthropologist” sorta way, I found it more curious to observe which folks assume I “do research,” etc and which credit other explanations. Interesting Freud imitation> /Marg I like "Other". 1. You make it all up as you go, or 2. you were born knowng everything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #168 March 12, 2009 QuoteConsidering the 5th ammendments clause concerning private property the 16th is null and void . Incorrect. Latter amendments supersede previous amendments and the original wording of the Constitution when there is conflict among them. I think you will find that Article V of the Constitution provides the ability to modify the document. Furthermore, it is quite a stretch of the imagination to consider the sixteenth to conflict with the fifth. We give tacit consent for taxation when we utilize the benefits of government (e.g. driving on roads, walking on sidewalks, utilizing law enforcement, etc.). In other words, tax monies are owed to the government, as the price for living here. They are not private property being seized by the government.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #169 March 12, 2009 QuotePeople driving by and see these farmers on a tractor or combine that maybe cost $500,000 or (more often) more, think they're rich! I would be surprised if the estate tax is supposed to be applied to anything other than equity, in cases where inherited property was not owned free and clear by the deceased. If the tax does apply to property yet to be paid for, less equity, then I would support correcting that. However, the estate tax, generally speaking, is not unfair. It has nothing to do with whether or not I understand the plight of farmers and ranchers (something I'm actually familiar with).Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #170 March 12, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteall for the privilege of working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for likely the lifestyle of someone making 30-40K a year You forgot to mention 52 weeks each year, every year. Don't forget that. (I support the estate tax, but I'm fully aware of how difficult life on a farm is.) uphill, both ways, in a snow storm with one pair of shoes shared between all 7 kids I was actually being serious. Of all the farmers in my family, I've never known or heard about any of them taking a vacation. Ever. Livestock and crops don't stop needing attention just because a farmer might want a break for a week.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #171 March 12, 2009 Me either, i confused you for someone else in that post. Still it went to good place for bit. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #172 March 12, 2009 For somebody ranting such support of the inheritance tax, you don't seem to know much about it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #173 March 12, 2009 >Of all the farmers in my family, I've never known or heard about any of >them taking a vacation. Louie Tomasso seems to pull it off. Runs a farm _and_ does the bigway circuit. His stories are always most entertaining. "Great, the weather sucks, I'm stuck on the ground and all my cows have the fuckin runs. You ever see a barn full of dairy cows with the runs?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #174 March 12, 2009 QuoteFor somebody ranting such support of the inheritance tax, you don't seem to know much about it. No, I never claimed to now the minute details of the estate tax. That does not mean I cannot have a reasonably informed opinion on the matter. I'm still waiting for your reply with respect to how much land your friend's ranch lost due to his siblings liquidating their share compared to how much was lost due to the estate tax. You seem to be avoiding that question.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #175 March 12, 2009 Quote>Of all the farmers in my family, I've never known or heard about any of >them taking a vacation. Louie Tomasso seems to pull it off. Runs a farm _and_ does the bigway circuit. His stories are always most entertaining. "Great, the weather sucks, I'm stuck on the ground and all my cows have the fuckin runs. You ever see a barn full of dairy cows with the runs?" I'm sure there have been farmers who have managed to take a vacation. However, I don't think it's uncommon for farmers to not be able to enjoy such luxuries (ignoring for the moment the question of whether or not an occasional vacation should be considered a luxury).Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
