minimum wage

[rehmwa 2]

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I guess they have no need for heat , water, health care, medications, soap, bus fare, cleaning supplies, haircuts, sick days, etc etc etc.

Let them eat cake.

Oh, NOW you want the taxpayers to buy everyone "FREE" cake.

You know, the desire for cake is the #7 top reason for people to obtain an advanced degree and search out higher paying jobs.

If you just "steal" cake from those who have a lot of cake, and then the give it to those without cake, then consequences would be terrible:

1 - a cake entitlement attitude - and eventually those getting free cake would resent those supplying it because they feel like they aren't worthy of obtaining cake on their own except through roving street cake gangs

2 - a severe international shortage of 'affordable' frosting - don't get me started on that effect on the entire unionized sugar industry - cripes - why do you hate union people? they only deserve a "fair" standard of living (as defined by allocations of grapes vs cucumbers - any idiot knows that)

3 - the positive effect on the private dental industry and the corresponding negative effect on the government sponsored dental industry - don't laugh, look what free cake did to Britain's dental baseline

we can't just go off half-baked where government cake benefits are concerned

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dreamdancer 0]

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>health care . . .

Best choose a job with a health plan if you want that!

there won't be any healthcare as any mcworkers/landscapers who get sick can be easily replaced. why would a master pay any more for labourers than the barest minimum to sustain life?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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>pizza outlets and wal-mart are going to move offshore? are you serious?

Heck yeah. Go into any Wal-Mart. See if you can find anything made in the US.

this hasn't answered my point. wal-mart won't relocate offshore (how will it sell anything to its customers? - the same for pizza/fast food outlets). where they source their products is another matter.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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>not sure that landscaping companies should set the countries
>economic policy.

Every company in the US sets the country's economic policy. Heck, taken together, they ARE its economy.

no, a countries people make up its economy. corporations are just legal shells within which people trade with each other.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Coreece 190]

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Oh, NOW you want the taxpayers to buy everyone "FREE" cake.

what are you talking about?

we're talking about a fair minimum wage paid by employers not tax payers.

...btw, it's apparrent that some people have more cake than they should (or deserve)....fattest country in the world comes to mind.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[rehmwa 2]

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Oh, NOW you want the taxpayers to buy everyone "FREE" cake.

what are you talking about?

we're talking about a fair minimum wage paid by employers not tax payers.

...btw, it's apparrent that some people have more cake than they should (or deserve)....fattest country in the world comes to mind.

well, in that case, (government mandated) employer provided cake sounds pretty good - we should pass a law immediately to require work-cake benefits. It's only fair. Cake, MMmmmm - or at least grapes.

though I'm more of a brownie person myself - good dense brownies that don't need no stinkin' union frosting

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Coreece 190]

well if it's cheese cake, then I can live with that.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[loumeinhart 0]

It's very simple. If expenses increase then you have to adjust. Raise your prices, let go employees, or a little of both. Afterall, You can't pay the electric company less or negotiate lower rent with your commercial landlord .

Besides, the minimum wage is a joke. MOST jobs pay above minimum wage, look it up.

[loumeinhart 0]

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there won't be any healthcare as any mcworkers/landscapers who get sick can be easily replaced. why would a master pay any more for labourers than the barest minimum to sustain life?

Dude I'm gonna blow a 10inch hole in your above statement. I guarantee you that the majority of uninsured americans make above minimum wage.

Have that.

[rehmwa 2]

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well if it's cheese cake, then I can live with that.

I hadn't considered that, but it's a winner

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dreamdancer 0]

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I honestly cannot speak to the government benefits part of the debate. I'm sure plenty of people on min wage use gov benefits (medicade/college tuition/section8/ etc. Certainly these 'benefits' are available and used by folks who make more than minimum wage and folks who aren't working at all.

one would assume that they use rather a lot of government benefits. there's probably a model somewhere which works out for every extra dollar paid out in the minimum wage how much the government would benefit. i would estimate around 30% (which means every extra dollar paid by minimum wage employers results in a 30 cent decrease in government benefits paid out).

if the minimum wage were a 'living wage' then presumably hardly any government benefit would need to be paid out to subsidise employers - in fact they might generate a tax surplus

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[billvon 3,107]

> why would a master pay any more for labourers than the barest
> minimum to sustain life?

Because he's not a master, and his employees are free to go to another employer who offers more. Soon the cheapskate will find himself with no employees, and he will have to increase his salaries/benefits to attract workers.

>wal-mart won't relocate offshore (how will it sell anything to its customers? -
> the same for pizza/fast food outlets).

You are correct; the physical stores will remain here. However, they will be largely employee-free, and will merely serve as storefronts for Chinese exporters.

>a countries people make up its economy. corporations are just legal shells
>within which people trade with each other.

Agreed. Economies are made up of buyers and sellers. Most of that activity happens between corporations and consumers/employees, so both are important.

Your point that corporations are just formalized bunches of people is a good one. That's why they have some of the same rights as individuals, because they represent groups of them.

[dreamdancer 0]

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there won't be any healthcare as any mcworkers/landscapers who get sick can be easily replaced. why would a master pay any more for labourers than the barest minimum to sustain life?

Dude I'm gonna blow a 10inch hole in your above statement. I guarantee you that the majority of uninsured americans make above minimum wage.

Have that.

i agree, but not much above - and a fair/living minimum wage would bring the majority of those uninsured to a position where they could afford healthcare.

now take this!

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Wal-Mart’s health care coverage is well below the national average

High premiums and deductibles keep well over half of Wal-Mart workers from participating in the company health plan. While the national average of workers covered by employer health insurance is about 60 percent, only about 43 percent of Wal-Mart’s employees are covered by the company’s health care plan.

Wal-Mart also covers less healthcare costs than its competitors. In a state analysis, the Massachusetts Department of Health and Human Services found that in 2003, Wal-Mart covered only 52% of total health care premium costs compared to K-Mart which covered 66%, Target which covered 68%, and Sears which covered 80%

Majority of Wal-Mart employees can’t afford company health care

Between 2000-2005, the cost of premiums rose 169 percent for single coverage and 117 percent for family coverage.

The average worker would have to pay one fifth of his paycheck for health care coverage at Wal-Mart. On a wage of about $8 an hour and 29-32 hours of work a week, many workers must rely on state programs or family members or simply live without health insurance.

Employees must pay $218 per month for family health care coverage from Wal-Mart.

In Wal-Mart's employee health plan, deductibles range from $350 to as high as $3,000 for family coverage.

http://www.ufcw.org/press_room/fact_sheets_and_backgrounder/walmart/benefits.cfm

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[loumeinhart 0]

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Because he's not a master, and his employees are free to go to another employer who offers more. Soon the cheapskate will find himself with no employees, and he will have to increase his salaries/benefits to attract workers.

And I believe that is why many local Ohio employers actually pay more than minimum wage for 'minimum wage' positions. Because that is what the current market.

This horse is long dead. I give up. Besides, safetyday at 8am BABY!!!

Dreamweaver, you are right. If I ever have to hire an employee, I'm glad that I don't have to think about their pay. I can just look it up on usapayrate.com (like military) and see what the minimum wage is. Of course I would probably pay more because I would want above-average help, so I could compete..and hire more.. \

seeya

[dreamdancer 0]

see ya! play safe

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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>wal-mart won't relocate offshore (how will it sell anything to its customers? -
> the same for pizza/fast food outlets).

You are correct; the physical stores will remain here. However, they will be largely employee-free, and will merely serve as storefronts for Chinese exporters.

you've already said that all its stock is currently chinese - so how would the situation change? can you envision the waltons ever selling up to china? i also can't see landscapers moving their business to china
what about the point that the government/the taxpayer subsidises cheapskate employers like wal-mart?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[billvon 3,107]

>you've already said that all its stock is currently chinese - so how would the
>situation change?

Automation and telepresence will eventually replace most of the store employees.

>can you envision the waltons ever selling up to china?

O yes. I mean, if a China-based company offered them half a trillion? I could see them taking it.

>what about the point that the government/the taxpayer subsidises
>cheapskate employers like wal-mart?

That's not right. Let them sink or soar on their own. It's not like they need government subsidies; heck, they're doing a lot better than even Ford, and Ford is living without them.

[dreamdancer 0]

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Your point that corporations are just formalized bunches of people is a good one. That's why they have some of the same rights as individuals, because they represent groups of them.

the corporation seems a very strange entity to give human rights to . what are its main characteristics? it is amoral. its owners, the shareholders, though able to claim all the surplus 'profit', have limited liability - meaning they can't be bankrupted (a nice perk if you can get it).

i see corporations as primitive digitising machines. a corporation is designed to take any set of resources available to it and convert them to a single number - otherwise known as the 'profit'.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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>you've already said that all its stock is currently chinese - so how would the
>situation change?

Automation and telepresence will eventually replace most of the store employees.

that's going to happen anyway. everything is going to have a rfid tag (several) and be part of an automated 'just in time' delivery system. minimum wage has little to do with it (other than the money wal-mart is saving with its taxpayer subsidies will be used to buy the machines that will replace the workers - neat; more profit for the corporation).

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[billvon 3,107]

>the corporation seems a very strange entity to give human rights to . . .

SOME of the same rights. SOME. Like the right to sue in court.

>what are its main characteristics? it is amoral.

Like people!

>i see corporations as primitive digitising machines.

They're mainly just groups of people who get together for a common purpose.

>a corporation is designed to take any set of resources available to it and
>convert them to a single number - otherwise known as the 'profit'.

So the Nature Conservancy is converting all its resources to profit? Might want to check into that.

But by and large, yes, their primary goal is profit - like many people. We consider this a good thing, in general. People who work very hard to make a big profit (i.e. become rich) are one of the things that has made this a pretty prosperous country.

>everything is going to have a rfid tag (several) and be part of an automated
>'just in time' delivery system.

Yep, something like that.

>minimum wage has little to do with it . . .

If people made less money, there would be less incentive to replace them with expensive machines.

[georgerussia 0]

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In Wal-Mart's employee health plan, deductibles range from $350 to as high as $3,000 for family coverage.

This may be a sidetrack, but $350 family deductible is extremely low, and even $3,000 family deductible is not bad (and you won't ever get such individual insurance for $218 at least in California).

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[dreamdancer 0]

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>what are its main characteristics? it is amoral.

Like people!

no, not like people - that would immoral (the vast majority can tell simple right from wrong - unlike a corporation).

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[dreamdancer 0]

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People who work very hard to make a big profit (i.e. become rich) are one of the things that has made this a pretty prosperous country.

being able to outgun the locals also helped - along with a good helping of slavery and something called the industrial revolution.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[dreamdancer 0]

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So the Nature Conservancy is converting all its resources to profit? Might want to check into that.

i think you're stretching your definitions...

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1915
The Ecological Society of America is formed. From its beginning, there is some disagreement about its mission: Should it exist only to support ecologists and publish research or should it also pursue an agenda to preserve natural areas?

1917
From the activist wing within the Ecological Society, the Committee for the Preservation of Natural Conditions, chaired by Victor Shelford, is created.

1926
The Committee publishes The Naturalist's Guide to the Americas, an attempt to catalog all the known patches of relatively undisturbed nature left in North America and in parts of Latin America.

1946
The Committee reforms itself as the Ecologists' Union, resolving to take “direct action” to save threatened natural areas.

1950
The Ecologists' Union changes it's name to The Nature Conservancy.

1951
The Nature Conservancy is incorporated as a nonprofit organization in the District of Columbia on October 22.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_conservancy

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[billvon 3,107]

>no, not like people - that would immoral

Most people are immoral by your definition; their highest goal is to make money, and will sacrifice other things (time, fun, other pursuits) to attain that. Doesn't mean they're evil, of course - many do other things that you'd consider good, like contribute to charity, raise kids etc.

>(the vast majority can tell simple right from wrong - unlike a corporation).

So corporations don't contribute to charity? They don't voluntarily do 'the right thing?' They don't offer their employees things they don't have to?

I don't think you've known very many corporations, if you think that.